How far can the japanese IDN .jp secondary market grow?

[donwebcorleone]

i had this talk with my friend yesterday and he brought a pessimistic point that for me is interesting. although i do believe there will be thousands of japanese IDN sales in secondary market , he was asking me to think which percentage of the japanese companies or individuals will buy domains on secondary market? The spirit in several IDN forums is that IDN .jp is a win-win situation.

nonetheless my friend is more pessimistic somehow stating that after all the internet access market in japan is one of the highest in the world and perhaps the most developed in internet speed and mobile browsing; second that many companies wont need their japanese IDN domain name since they already have an internet name, crappy or not, that has become famous because its use for many years; and that at the end japan is not china, where still today only less than 20% of the chinese have internet access at home -the percentage is higher because of the use of internet cafes, etc- so his point is that in china they will really be forced to buy domains on secondary market, and there u can expect a 100% growth every year, but that in japan the market is already matured.

it is a fact that almost all japanese store have domain name, crappy or not, but at the end, they do already have a domain name. so it will be harder than in China, where there are many new stores coming up every week, and where even most of the stores now in business dont even have an alphabet domain name .

for me as a final point, he is also got a point that if i intend to buy .jp IDNs for sale in secondary market in Japan, a bad japanese IDN will always be a bad japanese IDN, but instead a bad chinese IDN can become a good chinese IDN, as there wont be enough good domains names to supply the demand of an domestic e-business market of 1.2 billion chinese.

Japan is only 124 million, and there are already over 650.000 domains registered in .jp ,whether .co.jp or .jp, and who knows how many millions of .com .net , etc are in the hands of japanese as kakaku.com etc. There can be optimism on one hand and on the other hand saturation as these number can also be interpreted. Im optimistic, but i cant be a fool that there are so many registrations for such a short population, n remember of those 124 million, at least 25% are over 65 so forget about them, they use the internet very few or nothing. At least in India, Indonesia, Russia or China most of the population is very young.

So, How far can the japanese IDN .jp secondary market grow?

as usual, dont have something nice to say? then please dont say it. And read, Im talking about secondary market IDN .jp market, im not talking about type-in, PPC, etc. as some of you are only interested, for that, any IDN might be good but as a very long time investment.

[touchring]

I think your friend is looking at the longer term. In 10-15 years, yes, domains you own in Chinese will be potentially worth more due to the bigger and younger market.

In the short to medium term, Japanese domains are still better.

It is also for the same reasons that Japanese developers are buying up land in Shanghai to build office buildings and luxury serviced apartments - people are looking at long term hold.

[donwebcorleone]

unfortunately with my up-to-now marketing, i must give the reason a little to my friend, the japanese stores more interested are the ones with crappy .com, if they own bestmusicjapan.com musictokyo1234.com any good japanese IDN is better than that. but what will happen when the not-so good IDNs .jp that people are registering? will they be able to sell them on secondary market? it seems saturation of the japanese e-business will mean no.

but yeah i wonder how much u guys agree with the statement that : " a bad japanese IDN will always be a bad japanese IDN, but instead a bad chinese IDN can become a good chinese IDN" even in short term the answer seems to be that is a correct statement.

[touchring]

A bad idn will always be a bad, regardless of language. :-D

[Clotho]

I know that your question is about the potential of the Japanese secondary market and not about PPC etc. However I must tell you that they are somewhat related.

As the Internet expanded and grew in North America, Companies discovered that by owning generic terms that related to their products they could drive targeted customers to their websites. This naturally provided them with greater sales, which every business strives for. Proctor and Gamble are excellent examples of this. They still hold a large portfolio of generic terms that bring targeted customers to their website.

It doesn't matter if your company has a poor name already in use. Even if the Japanese public are familiar with it and you do not wish to change it. If you produced beer and your company website was at www.111ichiban-biiru.co.jp and you wanted to keep it because people already knew about it and used it. You could still buy the domain ビール.com or ビール.jp and point it at 111ichiban-biiru.co.jp and you would get more customers for your product, all of them targeted and looking for beer.

In the early days of the English Internet it was difficult to put a value on generic domains such as these. Usually price was best determined by the free market. Domains sold for a price that the seller was willing to accept and the buyer was willing to spend. In the last few years this has changed. Using the PPC model we can now determine how much revenue any generic term will generate. Simply park the domain for a period of time and add up the funds generated. In North America quality domains have been commonly selling with figures between 4years worth of revenue and 8 years worth. It is my opinion that in the coming years we will see domains sell for multiples greater than this, particularly in the Japanese market. Your countrymen are very adept at looking at and understanding a very long-term picture. Once a domain such as this is purchased the customers it generates will last indefinitely and no more money need be spent to obtain them.

Japanese businessmen are very savvy. I think they will happily purchase a domain for a multiple of 5 years earnings all the while looking down the road and knowing that it will produce income for them for 20, 30 50 years or more.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by donwebcorleone

unfortunately with my up-to-now marketing, i must give the reason a little to my friend, the japanese stores more interested are the ones with crappy .com, if they own bestmusicjapan.com musictokyo1234.com any good japanese IDN is better than that. but what will happen when the not-so good IDNs .jp that people are registering? will they be able to sell them on secondary market? it seems saturation of the japanese e-business will mean no.

but yeah i wonder how much u guys agree with the statement that : " a bad japanese IDN will always be a bad japanese IDN, but instead a bad chinese IDN can become a good chinese IDN" even in short term the answer seems to be that is a correct statement.

Japan is not a mature internet market by any stretch of the imagination.

You tell me that Japanese are very nationalistic. You tell me that are over 650,000 dot JP sold.

I am telling you that Britain is very pro dot com. Most big business use it out of preference but there are nearly 4 Million .co.uk sold. Germany has over 9 Million dot de registered.

Look as Whois.sc - Country IPs:

141,569,508 JAPAN
247,554,365 UNITED KINGDOM
1,329,444,686 UNITED STATES

I am afraid whatever your thoughts as far as the Internet is concerned, Japan is still Johnny Come Lately, or The New Kid on the Block!

Tell your friend that IDN will enable Japan to light the blue touch paper that launches the Japanese Internet into Orbit!

[touchring]

Anyone seen this website? http://www.engrish.com

Here's a funny one if you can read chinese.

http://www.engrish.com/recent_detail...tegory=Engrish from Other Countries&date=2006-02-02 (it's not porn)

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by touchring

Anyone seen this website? http://www.engrish.com

Here's a funny one if you can read chinese.

http://www.engrish.com/recent_detail...tegory=Engrish from Other Countries&date=2006-02-02 (it's not porn)

Yes, it just goes to show how essential the implementation of IDN will be to proper function of the Internet in Asia.

[donwebcorleone]

Originally Posted by Dwrixon

Japan is not a mature internet market by any stretch of the imagination.

You tell me that Japanese are very nationalistic. You tell me that are over 650,000 dot JP sold.

I am telling you that Britain is very pro dot com. Most big business use it out of preference but there are nearly 4 Million .co.uk sold. Germany has over 9 Million dot de registered.

Look as Whois.sc - Country IPs:

141,569,508 JAPAN
247,554,365 UNITED KINGDOM
1,329,444,686 UNITED STATES

I am afraid whatever your thoughts as far as the Internet is concerned, Japan is still Johnny Come Lately, or The New Kid on the Block!

Tell your friend that IDN will enable Japan to light the blue touch paper that launches the Japanese Internet into Orbit!

i agree with you Dwrixon that compared to those countries japan looks like a baby, though they speak english ".com", even german can speak well english, but on the other hand, i think you are forgetting that a .jp IDN is only useful for Japan, and for long .com has been an english world where the language skills of the japanese are a handicap.

it is also an advantage that you register a .co.uk and u know u can use it to reach customers in Singapore, Australia, Hong Kong, Canada, US, etc. because the co.uk is synonym of "english". and well u can also hire many people around the world to help you with your english co.uk if you want content, SEO, etc; to hire japanese staff to help you to do content, SEO, in japanese is expensive since the only people that speak japanese to help you are japanese who receive high salaries to most standards. so u cant do much with a .jp if u wanna develop but dont have much money to hire japanese to help you. But at the end, why to register 15 million IDN .jp when only 120 million in the world can read them?

anyway my friend is the pessimistic one. though i agree he has some points that for me are interesting china vs. japan since i dont have exactly one million dollars to invest in IDNs, thats why i post our conversation here.

[thegenius1]

Well with you last comment you made about not having 1 million to invest, are you saying that he does and is williing to invest, if this is the case i would present him the facts, One of which being the successfull sales you had in a short period of time, then i would also present the case Dave pointed out, But if all else fails and he is willing to invest that type of money dont miss out.... I mean he is definetly garunteed his investment back 100% if you use youre skill and knowledge of the Jap market..... I would fear of loss him and tell him that you are experienced in this field and you will go else where for fianaincing if need be... as long as it doesnt come across to harsh..... my 2 cents

[touchring]

Generally speaking, 4 markets with one of the highest growth potential are Arabic (funded by oil money), Chinese, and Eastern European countries that joined the EU, and probably parts of Latin America.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by donwebcorleone

i agree with you Dwrixon that compared to those countries japan looks like a baby, though they speak english ".com", even german can speak well english, but on the other hand, i think you are forgetting that a .jp IDN is only useful for Japan, and for long .com has been an english world where the language skills of the japanese are a handicap.

it is also an advantage that you register a .co.uk and u know u can use it to reach customers in Singapore, Australia, Hong Kong, Canada, US, etc. because the co.uk is synonym of "english". and well u can also hire many people around the world to help you with your english co.uk if you want content, SEO, etc; to hire japanese staff to help you to do content, SEO, in japanese is expensive since the only people that speak japanese to help you are japanese who receive high salaries to most standards. so u cant do much with a .jp if u wanna develop but dont have much money to hire japanese to help you. But at the end, why to register 15 million IDN .jp when only 120 million in the world can read them?

anyway my friend is the pessimistic one. though i agree he has some points that for me are interesting china vs. japan since i dont have exactly one million dollars to invest in IDNs, thats why i post our conversation here.

I would have to disagree with the above on co.uk being internationally recognised. I would suggest that it is primarily for domestic use. However, there are no restriction on how many you can own. I have just dumped my portfolio of about 100 on the market because they are expensive to transfer and more difficult to manage than dot coms.

I take your point about Japanese websites being comparatively expensive to design and build but again that is a sign of an immature market. Within 5 years just about everyone in High School will be able to do it.

The Japanese economy may not be what it was, but it is still very significant. I actually believe that there is a largely untold story here. Sure there was an inflationary bubble in Japan and sure the markets were mismanaged by inept politicians, but I doubt that is the full story. Whilst America's economy was expanding rapidly largely on the back of Internet related products and services, Japan was largely sidelined. It was edged out of the computer hardware market by aggressive competition from China, Korea and Taiwan. It never really got a toe hold in the Software market, and frankly it has not really even started to exploit the true potential of Ecommerce, which is still at a very early stage in the US and UK, which probably lead the world.

I believe that Japan spent so long in the wilderness because although it is essentially a high tech economy, it largely miss-out in the last ten years on an explosive boom in online information. This was to some extent inevitable as the early technology was very much Anglo-centric, so the playing field was sloping heavily towards the Japanese goal. However, steady development supported by both Japanese and Chinese Government have brought us to the point where we are going into the second leg of the fixture. The second half will be played on home turf in Asia and I think we can expect a deluge of goals. America is going have defend in depth to hold onto its impressive lead from the first leg.

[donwebcorleone]

Originally Posted by thegenius1

Well with you last comment you made about not having 1 million to invest, are you saying that he does and is williing to invest, if this is the case i would present him the facts, One of which being the successfull sales you had in a short period of time, then i would also present the case Dave pointed out, But if all else fails and he is willing to invest that type of money dont miss out.... I mean he is definetly garunteed his investment back 100% if you use youre skill and knowledge of the Jap market..... I would fear of loss him and tell him that you are experienced in this field and you will go else where for fianaincing if need be... as long as it doesnt come across to harsh..... my 2 cents

there is not secret in my marketing, i just reach the stores that have crappy .com names and sell them a semi good IDN .jp

the point of discussion with my friend is how far this second market will go? he was saying that if someone register a not so good IDN .jp odds are he wont ever sell it on secondary market. different what it did happen with bad .com, or as he think it will happen as well with bad .cn, dont forget they have 1.1 billion more people than japan. so if someone register now lets say an IDN chinashoes.cn bestshoesofchina.cn to sell it on secondary market at the end odds are, that even when it is not shoes.cn, someone eventually might take it. Why someone would pay $XXXXX for a bad japanese IDN when the market is so small?

the advantage of japan is that people can afford to buy interesting IDNs in good money, while for most chinese stores or citizens sums like $9.000 dollars that i use to sell my IDN is a lot of money. In Tokyo, u can reach any corner store selling an IDN in one million yen or $9.000 and if they are interested for them that isnt a big sum at all, it is very cheap in fact for the purpose u buy it. With japanese IDNs is easier to get good money if u sell them, but there is a reduced limit to the people you can reach. dont forget that most companies in japan tend to be big as very few individuals can afford to start a business and pay the ultra expensive tokyo office rent fees.

i guess there will be a short period of great interest to get good japanese IDN .jp for companies, but then the secondary market will vanish more and more. In other markets, the secondary market will be high for good or bad IDN because they are huge or because one single IDN .com, u have the advantage that u can reach many countries as it is the case of arab, russian or spanish .com IDNs . A japanese IDN .com is again only good for one country, japan.

[thegenius1]

Originally Posted by donwebcorleone

there is not secret in my marketing, i just reach the stores that have crappy .com names and sell them a semi good IDN .jp

the point of discussion with my friend is how far this second market will go? he was saying that if someone register a not so good IDN .jp odds are he wont ever sell it on secondary market. different what it did happen with bad .com, or as he think it will happen as well with bad .cn, dont forget they have 1.1 billion more people than japan. so if someone register now lets say an IDN chinashoes.cn bestshoesofchina.cn to sell it on secondary market at the end odds are, that even when it is not shoes.cn, someone eventually might take it. Why someone would pay $XXXXX for a bad japanese IDN when the market is so small?

the advantage of japan is that people can afford to buy IDNs in good money, for most chinese $9.000 dollars is a lot of money. In Tokyo, u can reach any corner store selling an IDN in one million yen or $9.000 and if they are interested for them that isnt a big sum at all, it is very cheap in fact for the purpose u buy it. With japanese IDNs is easier to get good money if u sell them, but there is a reduced limit to the people you can reach. dont forget that most companies in japan tend to be big as very few individuals can afford to start a business and pay expensive tokyo office rent fees. There will be a short time to get good japanese IDN .jp for companies, but then the secondary market will vanish. In other markets, the secondary market will be high for good or bad IDN because they are huge.

I understand youre point 100% and i think it does make alot of sense, but in the long term secondary may kick into affect... but in china i think as you stated your case there will be a much higher demand becasue of population and Deminishing product... Interesting..... I also find it interesting that so many terms in Jap are gone, somebody must see great Value in this market...... You know sometimes when you go to Reg a name AND you just KNow its Avail..... but i get that feeling alot and to my suprise in Jap it is Gone ! i laugh sometimes and sometimes i get pissd

[Olney]

Japan's late on getting onto the internet because of the phone company. I literally had to spend about $250 to $300 a month to be online studying how to design for the internet. It just took too long for one monthly connection price to happen. If you don't use the internet you can't develop for it.

Anyway it really depends on what the company does & how big it is to think of if these markets will find it useful to purchase domains.

For example I own a lot of Japanese holidays Like White Day, Golden Week etc.
It's not related to any specific market, nor product.

Then I have about the 7 types of popular alcoholic beverages in dot coms & dot jps that my roommate's company's clients pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a month in advertising in Japan. My case is a bit different because my roommate has a company that deals with these alcoholic beverage companies directly but I know how much they spend advertising on the trains, sponsoring club events, paying production for commercials etc. I think even spending a few thousand dollars for these is not even a small dent in their advertising budget.

What you guys might not know is local Japanese versions of the American or international companies ARE NOT ALLOWED to maintain their own localized site. They have very limited input a lot of times. The solution for this is campaign sites usually though coordination with ###tsu or ####hodo. This is not for every IDN domain but I feel you can register peanuts or what sells & have a high advertising budget. A huge global beverage company pays the guys at ##tsu like $200 an hour to just coordinate & manage a project that they filter out to another company. I had like 3, 5 hour meetings with these guys in one month & that's 5 managers in the meeting.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by donwebcorleone

there is not secret in my marketing, i just reach the stores that have crappy .com names and sell them a semi good IDN .jp

the point of discussion with my friend is how far this second market will go? he was saying that if someone register a not so good IDN .jp odds are he wont ever sell it on secondary market. different what it did happen with bad .com, or as he think it will happen as well with bad .cn, dont forget they have 1.1 billion more people than japan. so if someone register now lets say an IDN chinashoes.cn bestshoesofchina.cn to sell it on secondary market at the end odds are, that even when it is not shoes.cn, someone eventually might take it. Why someone would pay $XXXXX for a bad japanese IDN when the market is so small?

the advantage of japan is that people can afford to buy interesting IDNs in good money, while for most chinese stores or citizens sums like $9.000 dollars that i use to sell my IDN is a lot of money. In Tokyo, u can reach any corner store selling an IDN in one million yen or $9.000 and if they are interested for them that isnt a big sum at all, it is very cheap in fact for the purpose u buy it. With japanese IDNs is easier to get good money if u sell them, but there is a reduced limit to the people you can reach. dont forget that most companies in japan tend to be big as very few individuals can afford to start a business and pay the ultra expensive tokyo office rent fees.

i guess there will be a short period of great interest to get good japanese IDN .jp for companies, but then the secondary market will vanish more and more. In other markets, the secondary market will be high for good or bad IDN because they are huge.

I think you are underestimated the potential for the Internet to provide opportunities to provide Goods and Services from cheap out of town locations without the need for massive investment. The internet has spawned huge numbers of small businesses in the UK and elsewhere.

It is to a large extent the mushrooming of small businesses enterprises that has been the main drivers in the Anglo Saxon economies. The same will happen in Asia. A motivate individual can register a name and start a website for a few bucks. Business is not normally as good initially, as they do not understand online marketing, SEO or the need for a good domain name. The better businessmen catch on quickly and those that don't disappear, often to be reincarnated at a later date. The internet is engine for economic growth though small business development. Once that message hits downtown Tokyo the boom times will be back to stay.

[Olney]

I read your post again I think I didn't answer your question correctly.
It will take time for the Japanese secondar market of bad domains to get sales (I think).
They can still register bad names with english letters in dot jp.
I think many still have plenty of choices.
I see IDN domains coming into play as campaign sites or for specific products initially.
I especially see it coming into play as redirects for specific services that produces it's inquiries from the internet...

[donwebcorleone]

Originally Posted by Dwrixon

I think you are underestimated the potential for the Internet to provide opportunities to provide Goods and Services from cheap out of town locations without the need for massive investment. The internet has spawned huge numbers of small businesses in the UK and elsewhere.

It is to a large extent the mushrooming of small businesses enterprises that has been the main drivers in the Anglo Saxon economies. The same will happen in Asia. A motivate individual can register a name and start a website for a few bucks. Business is not normally as good initially, as they do not understand online marketing, SEO or the need for a good domain name. The better businessmen catch on quickly and those that don't disappear, often to be reincarnated at a later date. The internet is engine for economic growth though small business development. Once that message hits downtown Tokyo the boom times will be back to stay.

i hope so. but again the advantage to develop a japanese IDN will be only for the japanese or the foreigners with big pockets to hire people to do content in japanese which then reduces the potential of secondary market of japanese IDN whether in Japan or abroad.

anyway thanks Dwrixon, to cheer up! i have already invested so much in .jp because i believe in them. but i think i need to begin to increase my portafolio in .cn to avoid putting all my eggs in one basket.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by donwebcorleone

i hope so. but again the advantage to develop a japanese IDN will be only for the japanese or the foreigners with big pockets to hire people to do content in japanese which then reduces the potential of secondary market of japanese IDN whether in Japan or abroad.

anyway thanks Dwrixon, to cheer up! i have already invested so much in .jp because i believe in them. but i think i need to begin to increase my portafolio in .cn to avoid putting all my eggs in one basket.

Yes, if you are buying 2nd Rate Japanese IDN for immediate resale that is one thing. Makes a lot of sense to me. If you are buying them as longer-term investments, then you need to look at the bigger picture and try to establish whether what you are buying has the same potential as other investment opportunities. I have gone for Major Keywords in Minor languages rather than Minor Keywords in Major Languages, but that is only one man's gambit.