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Old 28th March 2007, 01:48 PM
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Greeks using DNAME!

This is our character substitution table. You can see the characters, although...

Now, that was not the only problem. We had the Punycode problem as well, because the Greek language cannot be correctly represented unless you had each domain name corresponding both to the domain name in capital letters and then the domain name in small letters.

Because of the tonos, if we use the word like [Greek word], which means test, as a domain name, we expect that like in every other DNS form, you can have the same domain in capital letters and in small letters and the substitution of these is equal to each other. Not exactly. Because the word [Greek word] becomes like [Greek word] without the tonos, and the Punycode had not anticipated that, and they have [Greek word] with the tonos becoming [Greek word] in capital letters with the tonos, but that's not a word in Greek.

So we have to give each and every registrant both these domains, if we want the DNS to be exactly as it would be in Latin characters.

So let's see it in XN translation. Like [Greek word], the domain with the TONOS is the XN dot, and the [Greek word] without the TONOS is the other one. They don't match.

The Punycode translation is not a very efficient way to translate the Greek language to domain names, since for each word the user has to register two domain names to achieve this representation. So every and each of the registrants that would actually want to register a Greek word had to register two domain names. This fact was recognized by us, and we implemented our IDN system around it. So for each domain name, with the TONOS, the user gets its variant without the TONOS for free. The variant without TONOS is considered the main domain, because they actually become a bundle right away.

So the domain without the TONOS is the domain a user has to set up for his domain name to work as a DNS record.

We had to do something about it, so we used the DNAME. The DNAME is the command in the DNS that actually puts two domain names -- makes them work like they were a substitute for each other. So both these domain names are inserted in the zone file as DNAMEs, so that the user has nothing more to do for setting them up but to ask his ISP to set up the domain name without the TONOS.

So he sets up the domain name without the TONOS. We set up both of them in the zone file with a DNAME.

That could be a normal domain name, the first two lines, in the zone file, and the third line is the line that is required for any Greek domain name to be registered and fully operational.

Was it a solution? Not exactly.

Because the DNAME is not a total solution. You can actually substitute the domain name with another domain name using the DNAME unless you want to send an e-mail to the first domain name. To the DNAME domain name.

So you can have like [Greek word] and like [Greek word] with the tonos in the zone file and if you tried to access them by a Web browser, www.[Greek word].gr, they work perfectly. If you decide to send an e-mail to the domain that is DNAME'd directly to that domain, not info@[Greek word] -- with the tonos -- .gr, you fail. And that is because the DNAME works only for the branches of the tree that are below the first limb, so at the equal level, where the DNAME was first initiated, nothing works within e-mail client.

To solve this DNAME problem, we decided to provide the choice to the registrants to use their variants or homographs as normal domain names. If they decided that the DNAME solution is not working for them.

So we actually put each and every domain name with a DNAME. But if you wish, you can have your name with NS records, no problem, but then you have to go to your ISP and set up everything in double zone files, in double mail addresses and stuff like that.

Every other variant of the domain name is inserted in the zone file, either as a DNAME or as a fully qualified domain name. That's what I told earlier.

In case a Greek IDN is a homograph of Latin domain name, instead of a domain name by itself, all the homographs and variants are DNAME'd to the first one, to the Latin domain name, if it was registered first or if you registered your Latin domain name as a variant of a Greek domain name, then the Greek domain name is the main domain name and every other domain name is DNAME'd to that.

So the variants. Why should you only register like [Greek word].gr and get the domain name without the tonos and why should you not try [Greek word]. [Greek word] is another word but it can actually be used as a domain name. Both these words in capitals are the same. That was a third problem.

http://icann.org/meetings/lisbon/tra...rs-27mar07.htm
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Old 28th March 2007, 02:03 PM
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Re: Greeks using DNAME!

Very interesting post.

Just to clarify, the TONOS that is mentioned in the article refers to the tone ( accent ) above individual characters in the domain name, for example....

Αθηνα and Αθήνα

From what I am aware, when registering a .gr IDN, you actually get the two versions of the name ( with and without the tone ) for the price of one. However, for all the other extensions, you will need to buy them individually. ( This is a bit of a bummer as the cost automatically doubles if you want both versions of a name )


Thanks for posting this RubberDuck, it was very interesting to read.


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Old 28th March 2007, 02:10 PM
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Re: Greeks using DNAME!

Yes, all variants are pointed at the first variant using DNAMES. Think it might include capitalisations as well as accents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
This is our character substitution table. You can see the characters, although...

Now, that was not the only problem. We had the Punycode problem as well, because the Greek language cannot be correctly represented unless you had each domain name corresponding both to the domain name in capital letters and then the domain name in small letters.

Because of the tonos, if we use the word like [Greek word], which means test, as a domain name, we expect that like in every other DNS form, you can have the same domain in capital letters and in small letters and the substitution of these is equal to each other. Not exactly. Because the word [Greek word] becomes like [Greek word] without the tonos, and the Punycode had not anticipated that, and they have [Greek word] with the tonos becoming [Greek word] in capital letters with the tonos, but that's not a word in Greek.

So we have to give each and every registrant both these domains, if we want the DNS to be exactly as it would be in Latin characters.

So let's see it in XN translation. Like [Greek word], the domain with the TONOS is the XN dot, and the [Greek word] without the TONOS is the other one. They don't match.

The Punycode translation is not a very efficient way to translate the Greek language to domain names, since for each word the user has to register two domain names to achieve this representation. So every and each of the registrants that would actually want to register a Greek word had to register two domain names. This fact was recognized by us, and we implemented our IDN system around it. So for each domain name, with the TONOS, the user gets its variant without the TONOS for free. The variant without TONOS is considered the main domain, because they actually become a bundle right away.

So the domain without the TONOS is the domain a user has to set up for his domain name to work as a DNS record.

We had to do something about it, so we used the DNAME. The DNAME is the command in the DNS that actually puts two domain names -- makes them work like they were a substitute for each other. So both these domain names are inserted in the zone file as DNAMEs, so that the user has nothing more to do for setting them up but to ask his ISP to set up the domain name without the TONOS.

So he sets up the domain name without the TONOS. We set up both of them in the zone file with a DNAME.

That could be a normal domain name, the first two lines, in the zone file, and the third line is the line that is required for any Greek domain name to be registered and fully operational.

Was it a solution? Not exactly.

Because the DNAME is not a total solution. You can actually substitute the domain name with another domain name using the DNAME unless you want to send an e-mail to the first domain name. To the DNAME domain name.

So you can have like [Greek word] and like [Greek word] with the tonos in the zone file and if you tried to access them by a Web browser, www.[Greek word].gr, they work perfectly. If you decide to send an e-mail to the domain that is DNAME'd directly to that domain, not info@[Greek word] -- with the tonos -- .gr, you fail. And that is because the DNAME works only for the branches of the tree that are below the first limb, so at the equal level, where the DNAME was first initiated, nothing works within e-mail client.

To solve this DNAME problem, we decided to provide the choice to the registrants to use their variants or homographs as normal domain names. If they decided that the DNAME solution is not working for them.

So we actually put each and every domain name with a DNAME. But if you wish, you can have your name with NS records, no problem, but then you have to go to your ISP and set up everything in double zone files, in double mail addresses and stuff like that.

Every other variant of the domain name is inserted in the zone file, either as a DNAME or as a fully qualified domain name. That's what I told earlier.

In case a Greek IDN is a homograph of Latin domain name, instead of a domain name by itself, all the homographs and variants are DNAME'd to the first one, to the Latin domain name, if it was registered first or if you registered your Latin domain name as a variant of a Greek domain name, then the Greek domain name is the main domain name and every other domain name is DNAME'd to that.

So the variants. Why should you only register like [Greek word].gr and get the domain name without the tonos and why should you not try [Greek word]. [Greek word] is another word but it can actually be used as a domain name. Both these words in capitals are the same. That was a third problem.

http://icann.org/meetings/lisbon/tra...rs-27mar07.htm
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Old 28th March 2007, 05:46 PM
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Re: Greeks using DNAME!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexd
From what I am aware, when registering a .gr IDN, you actually get the two versions of the name ( with and without the tone ) for the price of one.

Correct.
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Old 28th March 2007, 06:54 PM
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Re: Greeks using DNAME!

My greek IDN's get the best traffic in my portfolio
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Old 28th March 2007, 07:34 PM
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Re: Greeks using DNAME!

That puts a bit of a spanner in the works.

With com/net, the domains with/without tonos will frequently be owned by different people. If it's customary to drop the tonos when capitalising, then we have a security situation where if someone types an email address in caps (dropping the tonos as(s)he does it), the mail gets sent to the wrong person.
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Old 28th March 2007, 07:43 PM
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Re: Greeks using DNAME!

All your Greek names are belong to us.

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Old 28th March 2007, 09:56 PM
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Re: Greeks using DNAME!

Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
All your Greek names are belong to us.

Classic line !!!


As for capitalising of not, I am not sure how Greeks search on the net. I have a variety of Greek IDNs, so with tones, some without. Both seem to get a decent ammount of traffic.

However, what I have noticed, and this is just from my observation, is that there are some search phrases that seem to do a lot better with the tones. I would say that these phrases are more commonly searched for by adults ( though I don't mean adult terms ) - just terms that your average teen internet user, wouldn't do a search for.

If you do a quick check on OVT ( if its still working ) you will see that some terms get lots of searches with tones, and without tones, they get none.

Very weird - but then again, Chaos is a Greek word isn't it ??


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