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Old 2nd April 2007, 12:40 AM
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Talking Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

We hear a lot about them, and yet, it's far from clear what's right and what's wrong with them.

I'd like to invite all you domainers to discuss the Phishing Domains.
There is a good chance that we can formulate a reasonable position on the topic.

Perhaps it would be nice if we keep the conversation polite.
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Old 2nd April 2007, 12:43 AM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Non-ethical, illegal, and useless.

Non-ethical: Obvious bad purposes
Illegal: Once again, bad purposes
Useless: Mixing scripts = no type ins.
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Old 2nd April 2007, 01:58 AM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

If the domain is used to in fact phish then that is totally wrong and the people who do it are scumbags.

Just because it is easy to exploit people on the net doesnt mean it is ok.
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Old 2nd April 2007, 02:33 AM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

they are extremyl valuable to crooks so if thats the target audience then hey buy away but if you are on the up and up i doubt you will be able to monetize them which makes them worthless.
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Old 2nd April 2007, 04:10 AM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Members can also get banned if they post them for sale or auction here.
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Old 2nd April 2007, 04:20 AM
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Talking Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Now,
how about taking apart several concrete examples, and see what are the legalities and other stuff.
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Old 2nd April 2007, 05:00 AM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Unethical, yes.

As for legalities, it is not illegal to register them, but using them for fraudulent purposes is, possibly depending on jurisdiction.

As far as usefulness, the best thing would be for ICANN to use some of it tax revenue to develop a list of potential phishing naes that can be regged by them and kept out of the DNS, or put in, but pointing to an educational website teaching about phishing.
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Old 2nd April 2007, 07:01 AM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFi
Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

We hear a lot about them, and yet, it's far from clear what's right and what's wrong with them.

I'd like to invite all you domainers to discuss the Phishing Domains.
There is a good chance that we can formulate a reasonable position on the topic.

Perhaps it would be nice if we keep the conversation polite.

Define "phishing domain".

There are plenty of domains such as "fööl.com" which only contain characters that exist naturally in *some* language of this earth. Plenty of native english speakers would call that a "phishing domain", and they are generally the same people who do not speak any other languages than english and believe the rest of the world should just speak english. This is a perfectly legal domain and could be an abbreviated for some company or organization in several countries around the world.


The only domains which can be reasonably banned by ICANN and listed on "phishing lists" are those which:

1. contain mixed scripts in a combination not found naturally in either/any of the script's languages

2. use the mixed scripts to decieve the reader

Examples could be something like:

- mpЗ.com (using the russian character "З"), which means "z" in english

That's called a "homographic attack" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homograph_spoofing_attack


In contrast, the following domain would not be a homographic attack:

МРЗ.com (meaning "mrz.com" in english)

Nor would it be unethical or considered as phishing to register such a domain, there could be any number of companies from countries which use russian characters having initials "mrz".


There is no way to put together a comprehensive "anti phishing" domain list without locking out a great deal of legitimate domains. What registries can do, however, is to algorithmically block registration of non-natural mixed-script domains . ".net" does this, ".com" does not, which is why Firefox shows all .com IDNs as punycode by default while properly displaying .net IDNs.


Vista/IE7 is set to handle the issues in two ways:

1. display IDNs as punycode if the script doesn't match the machine's language setting.

2. query a hand-made phishing list

-> microsoft has to be careful here, as they open themself up for lawsuits from both legitimate domain holders as well as any phishing domains which they might have forgotten to include (it's dangerous waters to tread on).


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Old 2nd April 2007, 08:30 AM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Frankly, I think it is impossible for the two groups to reach any consensus.

On one hand you have people who are committed to investing in domains that use the scripts and languages of the increasing pool of user's outside the English Speaking World. These are real domains with a genuine legitimate purpose.

The other group have looked past the best genuine investment that you are ever likely to find to register domains which could only ever have a fraudulent purpose. Where is the common ground on which consensus could be built?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFi
Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

We hear a lot about them, and yet, it's far from clear what's right and what's wrong with them.

I'd like to invite all you domainers to discuss the Phishing Domains.
There is a good chance that we can formulate a reasonable position on the topic.

Perhaps it would be nice if we keep the conversation polite.
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 2nd April 2007 at 01:14 PM..
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Old 2nd April 2007, 02:26 PM
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Talking Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Lets talk about mixing languages.
In Kubrick's "Clockwork Orange" Russian and English are mixed in many sentences.
In Leo Tolstoy's "War and Peace" French is an integral part of the Russian story. If your college professor tells you to read it in the original he is either kidding or expects you to know both languages.

In the 1930s Germany and USA persecuted married couples of different races or ethnicities by sending them to the concentration camps or lynching.

The ideas of a "pure language" and "pure race" are advanced by funny little men with mustaches.

Last edited by SciFi; 2nd April 2007 at 02:45 PM..
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Old 2nd April 2007, 02:39 PM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

That's as maybe, but never within the same word, and never for the express intent of extorting money.

There will no doubt be instances were the ban on mix of Latin and Cyrillic will be determental. Perhaps the rules need relaxing in certain specific case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFi
Lets talk about mixing languages.
In Kubrick's "Clockwork Orange" Russian and English are mixed in many sentences.
In Leo Tolstoy's "War and Peace" French is an integral part of the Russian story. If your college professor tells you to read it in the original he is either kidding or expects you to know both languages.

The ideas of a "pure language" and "pure race" are advanced by funny little men with mustaches.
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Old 2nd April 2007, 03:35 PM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFi
Lets talk about mixing languages.
In Kubrick's "Clockwork Orange" Russian and English are mixed in many sentences.
In Leo Tolstoy's "War and Peace" French is an integral part of the Russian story......
Both works of fiction and of no relevance to IDNs

Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFi
In the 1930s Germany and USA persecuted married couples of different races or ethnicities by sending them to the concentration camps or lynching.
What has this got to do with mixed script languages and/or IDNs?

Mixed script IDNs have served no purpose other than to decieve in my experience and trying to pass them off as the real thing is tantamount to fraud ... for which I believe there are fairly heavy penalties
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Old 2nd April 2007, 04:11 PM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Thanks for the kind words on my domain, jacksonm.
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Old 2nd April 2007, 04:19 PM
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Talking Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

The mixing of races is undermining the purity of the Aryan race.

Paul Joseph Goebbels
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Old 2nd April 2007, 04:23 PM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding.

The contemporary use of the term first appeared on Usenet groups in the late 1980s.

Trolls can be existing members of a community that rarely post and often contribute no useful information to the thread, but instead make argumentative posts in an attempt to discredit another person, more often than not based on what they thought was said rather than what was actually said by the other person, concentrating almost exclusively on facts irrelevant to the point of the conversation, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

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Old 2nd April 2007, 04:36 PM
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Talking Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Hey Blast,
Nice copying and pasting job!
Why don't you give us your definition of the phish?
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Old 2nd April 2007, 04:50 PM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mulligan
Mixed script IDNs have served no purpose other than to decieve in my experience and trying to pass them off as the real thing is tantamount to fraud ... for which I believe there are fairly heavy penalties
Wrong. Mixed scripts are regularly used in various written languages, and have been long before the internet was invented. Japanese, just to name one...

.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jose
Thanks for the kind words on my domain, jacksonm.
That domain is a purely intentional homograph, and if I had a trademark on the term "mp3", I'd sue your ass to hell and back :-)

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Last edited by jacksonm; 2nd April 2007 at 04:53 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 2nd April 2007, 05:47 PM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Im not talking about written languages, Im talking about the mixed script, so called IDN's that have been posted for sale on sedo and various other forums, names pretending to be something they are not ... so how is that 'wrong'?
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Old 2nd April 2007, 06:00 PM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mulligan
Im not talking about written languages, Im talking about the mixed script, so called IDN's that have been posted for sale on sedo and various other forums, names pretending to be something they are not ... so how is that 'wrong'?
Because there are plenty of legitimate uses for mixed-script IDNs in languages which normally use mixed-scripts. Japanese language regularly mixes scripts, so does chinese, e.g. in words like "web 2.0", "2008 beijing olympics", etc...

A domain such as "fìx.com" can be perfectly legal in some language, perhaps azeri, I don't know. Just because you think it's a spoof doesn't make it a spoof; you only think it's pretending to be something it's not because that's how it appears to an english speaker. The only wrong is when somebody lies to sell "fìx.com" as "fix.com", but simply listing "fìx.com" for auction is not telling a lie.


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Old 2nd April 2007, 06:02 PM
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Re: Phishing Domains: Are they ethical, legal, useless?

we all know what mixed scripts are whats legitimate and whats there to trade on bad faith its obvious that some languages use the Latin version such as mp3 or cd such as japanese but obviously trying to trade off another famous sites names by creating a look alike is bad form IMO
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