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Old 3rd April 2007, 12:36 PM
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Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

Just thinking (maybe a bit too much) about how things will unfold and how they will try to "satisfy" all parties involved.
So that brought up the question..."Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?" and what is the possibility of that happening?

There is idn.com, idn.cn, idn.jp, idn.net, idn.ws, idn.biz, idn.info etc. etc.
Someday there will be "idn.idn" (in all idn languages)
No doubt many will push for it to be a "new" extension with sunrise period etc.
This would be the "real IDNs" the boys have long referred to at DNF.

There has been speculation that idn.com owners will be "grandfathered in" to the idn.idn status, or that idn.com
would map to idn.idn but nothing is certain except that we are most likely in for a continued l-o-n-g wait.
Interested in anyone's thoughts here.

Last edited by bwhhisc; 3rd April 2007 at 01:05 PM..
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Old 3rd April 2007, 12:48 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

There is room for both extensions, it will be a question of which will hold more value.

In my opinion, IDN.com might hold enough value by itself due to the brandability of the .com extension. If there is a seperate space for IDN.IDN (.com, .net equivalent), the extension might have to re-establish itself as the .com equivalent and will take an even longer while to reach the value that .com currently controls.

Regarding IDN.IDN, it is already here my friend.
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Old 3rd April 2007, 12:57 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwhhisc
Just thinking (maybe a bit too much) about how things will unfold and how they will try to "satisfy" all parties involved.
So that brought up the question..."Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?" and what is the possibility of that happening?

There is idn.com, idn.cn, idn.jp, idn.net, idn.ws, idn.biz, idn.info etc. etc.
Someday there will be "idn.idn"
No doubt many will push for it to be a "new" extension with sunrise period etc.
This would be the "real IDNs" the boys have long referred to at DNF.

There has been speculation that idn.com owners will be "grandfathered in" to the idn.idn status, or that idn.com
would map to idn.idn but nothing is certain except that we are most likely in for a continued l-o-n-g wait.
Interested in anyone's thoughts here.
I think there needs to be more precision in the question. Do you mean "Can IDN.com and IDN.(xn-- version of .com in local languages) co-exist"?

For some language, the translation of ".com" would be a simple transliteration e.g. in Thai it would be ".คอม" and hence sound exactly the same. So if the ".com" and the ".คอม" had different owners, it would be pretty chaotic. Every single Thai ".com" / ".คอม" would then fail the radio test. A very bad state of affairs.

But for countries where a translation was chosen, instead of a transliteration i.e. it didn't sound the same as ".com", I guess they could co-exist.

Interesting!
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Old 3rd April 2007, 01:37 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

I think that they will exist together for a small amount of time until the awareness of idn.idn is fully realized in which case any traffic type in traffic will slowly die off companies will slowly start to use them and our versions might be tossed to trash heap but thats just a worse case scenario considering that idns are for the ease of use for the native speaker.
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Old 3rd April 2007, 02:48 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

We can thank verisign and icann for using us as a live test best that pays full price if this happens.
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Old 3rd April 2007, 03:03 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwhhisc
Just thinking (maybe a bit too much) about how things will unfold and how they will try to "satisfy" all parties involved.
So that brought up the question..."Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?" and what is the possibility of that happening?

There is idn.com, idn.cn, idn.jp, idn.net, idn.ws, idn.biz, idn.info etc. etc.
Someday there will be "idn.idn" (in all idn languages)
No doubt many will push for it to be a "new" extension with sunrise period etc.
This would be the "real IDNs" the boys have long referred to at DNF.

There has been speculation that idn.com owners will be "grandfathered in" to the idn.idn status, or that idn.com
would map to idn.idn but nothing is certain except that we are most likely in for a continued l-o-n-g wait.
Interested in anyone's thoughts here.

Would depend on language, for japanese, they invented "idn.com".

kakaku.com and it's idn.com logo, dated Nov 04, 1999.

http://web.archive.org/web/199911040...com/index.html


ikyu.com and it's idn.com logo, dated Jun 19, 2000.

http://web.archive.org/web/200006191.../www.ikyu.com/


onamae.com and it's idn.com logo, dated May 10, 2000.

http://web.archive.org/web/200005101...ww.onamae.com/

Last edited by touchring; 3rd April 2007 at 03:21 PM..
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Old 3rd April 2007, 03:15 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

You guys definitely have too much idle time to sit around and worry about things. Once corporate investment in IDN.com has started (and as RD strives every day to point out IT HAS) it becomes increasingly difficult to implement anything other than a mapping scheme. Each day there are more and more stakeholders who will not sit by silently and watch their investment be relegated to the dust bin.

Mapping multiple native language extensions onto a single .com makes sense for some scripts too, and there's nothing to fear there (unless you work on the BIND team) The one constant on the net is change, and it wouldn't surprise me to see in 10 years yet another level of abstraction layered on top of DNS (just as DNS does to IP addressing, etc.) once the system gets a bit more cumbersome to deal with. And people will complain but it will just be another opportunity...
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Old 3rd April 2007, 03:26 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdw
You guys definitely have too much idle time to sit around and worry about things. Once corporate investment in IDN.com has started (and as RD strives every day to point out IT HAS) it becomes increasingly difficult to implement anything other than a mapping scheme. Each day there are more and more stakeholders who will not sit by silently and watch their investment be relegated to the dust bin.
Theres corporate investment in IDN .jp and .cn as well.

The verdict is not out on what is preferred and what the consumer is going to place more value on.

Given that alot of the spotlight is on .com (as this is a very western-centric forum), you'll see an almost balanced or opposite picture in some of the local based language forums/ domain auctions.

Considering the options (i.e. idle time) gives you an opportunity to consider diversification. I for one would rather be rich than right.
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Old 3rd April 2007, 04:08 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

The talks about IDN.IDN will continue for another 2 or 3 years and then people will finally realize we don't need IDN.IDN at all because IDN.ascii is already ruling the world. That's why we don't see VeriSign's planning for IDN.IDN.

Planning to do IDN.IDN at the ROOT for one country is easy, but planning for hundreds or thousands of mappings (or registries) is very hard. The more we discuss, the more problems we will discover.

As I said a year ago, IDN.IDN is for improving the ease of use and can be achieved through improvement on browsers. On IE6, the Chinese users have to switch the Input Mode in order to enter ".com", but on IE7 we don't have to switch anymore, we just continue typing "。c o m" in Chinese input mode and IE7 will give us ".com". With the same logic, when we type "。c n" in Chinese Mode, IE can be programmed to display ".中国" instead and we don't have to do any work on the ROOT.

I have been solving problems all my life. First I worked to solve mathematical (or computer) problems, then business (real life) problems, and now philosophical problems. Putting "xn--fiqs8s" in the Root Server to represent ".cn" (and need a browser to translate "xn--fiqs8s" back to ".cn") is the dumbest idea I have ever seen! By doing so, it can only cause more INconvenience rather than convenience.

Forget about IDN.IDN and only focus on IDN.ascii is the best solution at this time!
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Last edited by Giant; 3rd April 2007 at 04:22 PM..
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Old 3rd April 2007, 04:24 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

If you are looking at new IDN.IDN that are going to stand alongside dot com and dot net as new extensions, you also have to think about New Registries.

The Extension will have to be applied through via the as yet unformulated policy for New TLDs, but we can look at the existing criteria that are set for New Extension and then try to weigh how brand new registries would fare in direct competition with Verisign in applying for these extensions. We can also look at, how long recent approvals of much less contraversial extension has taken to come to fruition. The present state of progress is that Final Proposals will be put to the Board for San Juan. It could be months after that before they are ready to receive any new applications for gTLDs.

It would seem that main criteria relating to approval of applicants to run registries is Technical and Financial Strength. Seems a bit hard to see how any brand spanking new registry could compete with Verisign on that, even setting aside issues such a Intellectual Property Rights.

On the Intellectual Property Rights issues, you should refer to this document:

http://www.icann.org/wipo/newgtld-ip-05apr06.htm

I think that will kill most of the crazy notions stone dead here, if those continuing to comment actually have done the reading.

As of the 10 October 2000, the following applications had already been lodged:

http://www.icann.org/tlds/tld-applic...ed-02oct00.htm

.xxx .kids .museums .tel .pro .travel .name .mobi

That should give you an indication of quickly you can expect to see New TLDs emerging to compete with dot Com if indeed that is what is ever likely to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
I have been solving problems all my life. First I worked to solve mathematical (or computer) problems, then business (real life) problems, and now philosophical problems. Putting "xn--fiqs8s" in the Root Server to represent ".cn" (and need a browser to translate "xn--fiqs8s" back to ".cn") is the dumbest idea I have ever seen! By doing so, it can only cause more INconvenience rather than convenience.
Browser are already IDN.IDN capable.

If you doubt this paste one into the search bar and observe at the target URL at the bottom left hand side of the page. You should see two punycode strings separated by a dot! I have posted previously on this issue. Solving problems is one thing. Solving solved problems is entirely another!
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 3rd April 2007 at 04:30 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 3rd April 2007, 04:30 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

IDN.IDN needs to exist for some languages such as Arabic and Hebrew. I can't say anything for the other languages, but it looks so damn funny everytime I edit something in Photoshop and see the .com/.net on the right of the word... it NEEDS to be implemented for these languages since it just doesn't work...
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Old 3rd April 2007, 04:31 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinaStar
The verdict is not out on what is preferred and what the consumer is going to place more value on.
Consumers follow content. It is really more a question of what the richer corporations place value on.
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Old 3rd April 2007, 04:32 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
The talks about IDN.IDN will continue for another 2 or 3 years and then people will finally realize we don't need IDN.IDN at all because IDN.ascii is already ruling the world.
...

Forget about IDN.IDN and only focus on IDN.ascii is the best solution at this time!
And you know this because you've stepped into a time machine and you've seen a China that is predominantly IDN.com?

There are benefits to both .cn and .com, it is just that nobody has stood up for the former extension on this forum.

The final verdict is not out yet, so I would not be carving words in stone less they come back to haunt you later on
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Old 3rd April 2007, 04:33 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fka200
IDN.IDN needs to exist for some languages such as Arabic and Hebrew. I can't say anything for the other languages, but it looks so damn funny everytime I edit something in Photoshop and see the .com/.net on the right of the word... it NEEDS to be implemented for these languages since it just doesn't work...
Arabic implementation of Dot Com cannot realistically wait more than another couple of months. There are too many countries and too many ccTLDs for it to make sense for the Arabs to be served any other way.
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Old 3rd April 2007, 04:33 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Consumers follow content. It is really more a question of what the richer corporations place value on.
Question for you. Companies like Pepsi Cola, Coca Cola will ditch their .cn websites and move with IDN.com websites instead?

Theres a brand identity attached to ccTLD extensions for multinational companies and having your website in ccTLD is not simply just a way to segment multi-language websites.

Just some food for thought.
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Old 3rd April 2007, 04:37 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinaStar
Question for you. Companies like Pepsi Cola, Coca Cola will ditch their .cn websites and move with IDN.com websites instead?
Like as not, they will try to do both. How the hell should I know!
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Old 3rd April 2007, 04:39 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Like as not, they will try to do both. How the hell should I know!
That's where the content is gonna be babe
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Old 3rd April 2007, 04:39 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

There is a survey at idnclub.com. People are predominently in favour of using CHINESE.com rather than Chinese.idn.
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Old 3rd April 2007, 04:41 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markits
There is a survey at idnclub.com. People are predominently in favour of using CHINESE.com rather than Chinese.idn.
The source, the source.

A few points:

1. Domainers that are already heavily invested in com.
2. .CN is a costly investment
3. Too late to grab anything nice now
4. Not all those members are mainland

Eachnic has a more balanced opinion. Particularly over the last 2 months. But they rig all their polls anyway.
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Old 3rd April 2007, 04:41 PM
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Re: Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markits
There is a survey at idnclub.com. People are predominently in favour of using CHINESE.com rather than Chinese.idn.
So at least we know where things are going for the time being on Taiwan!

Of course all such information is useful, but the overall situation may remain fluid for some time to come.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinaStar
That's where the content is gonna be babe
When was the last time you looked at the Coca Cola website?
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 3rd April 2007 at 04:43 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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