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-   -   Problem with accentuated generics? (http://www.idnforums.com/forums/11231-problem-with-accentuated-generics.html)

Pete 23rd May 2007 04:51 AM

Problem with accentuated generics?
 
What happens when you register the correctly accentuated version of an established generic ascii site?

For example, arrivee.com (arrival in french) has a flight reservation site.
In time, the grammatically correct arrivée.com will most likely get a good part of the "mispelled" ascii traffic.

There is no trademark infrigement, but couldn't it be argued that your new IDN is unduly profitting from the older ascii site's traffic/reputation, as people make a natural switch over time?

This problem only exists in the latin script and I tend to avoid those situations, but I'd like to know people think . There will be a few irate ascii owner when IDN takes off.

Fka200 23rd May 2007 05:02 AM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
I think they should've been smart and register it themselves. It is a generic domain, and you have no intention of taking their users away from them.

Explorer 23rd May 2007 07:50 AM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete
What happens when you register the correctly accentuated version of an established generic ascii site?

For example, arrivee.com (arrival in french) has a flight reservation site.
In time, the grammatically correct arrivée.com will most likely get a good part of the "mispelled" ascii traffic.

There is no trademark infrigement, but couldn't it be argued that your new IDN is unduly profitting from the older ascii site's traffic/reputation, as people make a natural switch over time?

This problem only exists in the latin script and I tend to avoid those situations, but I'd like to know people think . There will be a few irate ascii owner when IDN takes off.

You mean why there is some website based on ASCII typo based on a generic IDN domain? :-)

touchring 23rd May 2007 08:25 AM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete
What happens when you register the correctly accentuated version of an established generic ascii site?

For example, arrivee.com (arrival in french) has a flight reservation site.
In time, the grammatically correct arrivée.com will most likely get a good part of the "mispelled" ascii traffic.

There is no trademark infrigement, but couldn't it be argued that your new IDN is unduly profitting from the older ascii site's traffic/reputation, as people make a natural switch over time?

This problem only exists in the latin script and I tend to avoid those situations, but I'd like to know people think . There will be a few irate ascii owner when IDN takes off.


Make sure your IDN displays generic information related to the dictionary word.

Does arrival = flight reservation??

I think displaying flight reservation site for arrivée.com might be risky if arrivee.com does flight reservation.

But if your domain is réservation.com, i think you can display hotel, flight, tour reservation and no one can sue you.

DavyBUK 23rd May 2007 08:56 AM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
It will be interesting to see how the first few WIPO's on this type of situation go to establish some kind of precedent for the decisions....Not that the panellists can be relied upon to follow whichever way of course....

jose 23rd May 2007 04:29 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Explorer
You mean why there is some website based on ASCII typo based on a generic IDN domain? :-)

That's exactly what I think!

I have some on that situation and I found out when, out of nowhere, I started to get traffic. LOTs of it. Arrivee is an easy decision, but how about some two words domains? It starts to get tricky. On the ascii websites who started AFTER I registered my IDN, I am ok, but how about all the others?

Drewbert 23rd May 2007 05:46 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
>But if your domain is réservation.com, i think you can display hotel, flight, tour
>reservation and no one can sue you.

You can be sued for anything. Whether they'll suceed is the important part.

L@@K 23rd May 2007 06:21 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Same here, for me on some french domains

Accent isn't a (trademark) distinctive sign ?

Touchring, with your téléchargement, what do you think ?

dabsi 23rd May 2007 07:02 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
always check under icimarques.com

As orientation: someone had to pay a fine of 15.000 € for méridien.com which is also 'generic'

But they are some grey zones; like bien-être (wellness) which is also a perfume under copyright protection, but we keep as we have an excellent lawyer.

They are a lot of free generic french IDN which still free, but too dangerous to register.

Ciao

touchring 23rd May 2007 07:04 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dabsi
always check under icimarques.com

As orientation: someone had to pay a fine of 15.000 € for méridien.com which is also 'generic'

But they are some grey zones; like bien-être (wellness) which is also a perfume under copyright protection, but we keep as we have an excellent lawyer.

They are a lot of free generic french IDN which still free, but too dangerous to register.

Ciao


If you got perfumes on your bien-être site, you are asking for trouble. If you got articles like the following on your site, you're fine:

Le bien-être est un concept qui touche à la santé, au plaisir, à la réalisation de soi, à l'harmonie avec soi et les autres. René Dubos présente la santé comme la convergence des notions d'autonomie et de bien-être. L'utilitarisme définit le bien-être comme la combinaison de plaisirs et de l'absence de peine, et prône la maximisation du bien-être général. L'égoïsme est la maximisation du bien-être personnel.

The good thing about adsense is you can block sites, first thing i block are similar ascii sites in both gtld and ctld.

Parking on other hand is very dangerous.

What you do to the name is more important than the trademark itself. If you got a name like McDonalds, but you incorporate a company that does funeral services, and put up a McDonalds Funeral Homes website, there is nothing the junk food McDonald can do.

Drewbert 23rd May 2007 07:17 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Dabsi, you need to give more specifics of the case.

http://domaine.blogspot.com/2007/03/...x-enchres.html

It appears the person was attempting to sell hotel-meridien.fr, méridien.com, lemeridien.in AND lemeridien.co.in

If it was just méridien.com, and it was going to a PPC page, and there was no attempt to sell, the outcome may have been different.

Pete 23rd May 2007 07:18 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
The méridien.com case actually started as méridien.fr, registered by an IDNer living in France. The .fr extension isn't legislated by the same rules as .com, so a French guy can sue another French guy and get 15k plus all of his other domains, including méridien.com.
Not so with .com, which instituted the wipo/usrp panels in order to avoid the lenghty trials of a few years ago.

As for trademark, you CAN trademark some generics, but unlike made up words like Google or Ipod, you have to define your area of activity. the Hood brand is a good example.

A word like téléchargement.com (download) is a good example of the worries I have. What else are you going to advertise under such a name besides downloading? No TM infrigement for sure, but I would't be surprised if wipo panellists take into account the precedance of the established telechargement.com (if it exists).

Icann probably thought of grandfathering those types of names to existing ascii owner, but judged it too complex.

dabsi 23rd May 2007 07:19 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Problem is you need to leave parking and go for projects: it will take years for us to put all the generic IDNs under adsense.....
or do you thing it is worth to change.

Ciao

tgtbtu2 23rd May 2007 07:22 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dabsi
always check under icimarques.com

As orientation: someone had to pay a fine of 15.000 € for méridien.com which is also 'generic'

Ciao

I have a hard time to believe it. A link to the story, if you can? Generic is generic. Even trademarks have limitations. You can be sued, of course, but it does not mean that you will automatically lose. If there was a case like that, something else must have been involved.

Fka200 23rd May 2007 07:24 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Just wondering: What's the best place to trademark a generic?

I assume you can trademark the generic as long as it is with extension. Anyone thinking of TMing one of their websites?

Pete 23rd May 2007 07:38 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
"I have a hard time to believe it. A link to the story, if you can? Generic is generic. Even trademarks have limitations. You can be sued, of course, but it does not mean that you will automatically lose. If there was a case like that, something else must have been involved."

French laws are not the same as North America.
The case details were exposed for one month on SEDO.fr, who was forced to do so and pay 25k I think (they were part of the attempted transactions).

The French even managed to have Google.fr post a similar case result on it google.fr front page for two weeks!!

As for TMing a name or generic with the extension, it is specifically not allowed under US tm rules.

dabsi 23rd May 2007 07:40 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tgtbtu2
I have a hard time to believe it. A link to the story, if you can? Generic is generic. Even trademarks have limitations. You can be sued, of course, but it does not mean that you will automatically lose. If there was a case like that, something else must have been involved.

You should read some court decisions in France an will learn that it can be very costly: afp.info (for agence france presse).

In reading the archived files, you would certainly give this business.
Believe it or not

of course if you are outside Europe , no problem.

Nevertheless, we'll keep www.secrétaire.com
DABSI

touchring 23rd May 2007 07:40 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete
A word like téléchargement.com (download) is a good example of the worries I have. What else are you going to advertise under such a name besides downloading? No TM infrigement for sure, but I would't be surprised if wipo panellists take into account the precedance of the established telechargement.com (if it exists).


A few issues:

1. The .com regulators actually don't care about the ascii - i've gone through one so i know.

2. What they want to know is whether you are infringing on another trademark (implicit or explicit). This means even if they don't own the ascii domain, if you use their trademark and confusing with their company, you're in trouble.


Some protective measures i use:

1). Do not park!

2). Do not have ads. If you must have ads, use adsense and block similar sites or trademarked site bearing the same name, ctld or gtld. Make sure the ads are only for the generic topic.

e.g. if you own Apple.com, Apple computer ads is not acceptable. Ads on how to grow apples is fine.

3). Register a company bearing the same name, and place the WHOIS under that company.

4). Create a real website - thousands of pages. Write press releases on your website, and get them published on blogs and news sites.

5). Register a trademark in your domain name


I've done 1 to 3, now working on 4, maybe 5 also, later.

Pete 23rd May 2007 08:06 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by touchring
A few issues:

1. The .com regulators actually don't care about the ascii - i've gone through one so i know.

2. What they want to know is whether you are infringing on another trademark (implicit or explicit). This means even if they don't own the ascii domain, if you use their trademark and confusing with their company, you're in trouble.


Some protective measures i use:

1). Do not park!

2). Do not have ads. If you must have ads, use adsense and block similar sites or trademarked site bearing the same name, ctld or gtld. Make sure the ads are only for the generic topic.

e.g. if you own Apple.com, Apple computer ads is not acceptable. Ads on how to grow apples is fine.

3). Register a company bearing the same name, and place the WHOIS under that company.

4). Create a real website - thousands of pages. Write press releases on your website, and get them published on blogs and news sites.

5). Register a trademark in your domain name


I've done 1 to 3, now working on 4, maybe 5 also, later.

Wise advice, althought difficult for domainers with thousands of names.

I just visited your téléchargement.com and the ascii version. You both have real sites dealing with downloading (the ascii even has a blimp with it's name on it!).
Did you get any hassle from them? Are they even aware your site exists?

tgtbtu2 23rd May 2007 08:09 PM

Re: Problem with accentuated generics?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dabsi
You should read some court decisions in France an will learn that it can be very costly: afp.info (for agence france presse).

In reading the archived files, you would certainly give this business.
Believe it or not

of course if you are outside Europe , no problem.

Nevertheless, we'll keep www.secrétaire.com
DABSI

Yes, US laws are quite different, true. This would never fly in US.
Besides, WIPO decisions are not final. You must be prepared to go to court, stay WIPO decision and fight it in a local court. That's what I'd do in US. Generics are not protectable in US and even trademarks are only for a certain class of goods (and US courts have reversed the lower courts decisions granting the transfer as well on the grounds that foreign trademarks are not protectable in US if they are not registered in US as well). Given that US (and EU) laws are "common law", it's important to research legal cases. You need to be prepared to fight in court if you think you are within your right. One thing for sure- stay away from famous trademarks-it's a waste of money.
Agree with the need to develop a site, though...


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