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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10th June 2007, 11:23 AM
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Question European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Hi All,

I proudly registered a French IDN for a keyword I wanted recently... and discussed this with a French friend.

My French native speaker friend then said to me... ohh... you know 95% of French users never use the special European special / accent characters ç é É â Â à À ë Ë etc. when searching online.
Namely as an example we replace the "ç" in "Français" and just type "Francais" (use English letters only as is easier).

I also notice in Overt that when-ever I put in a European Accent words it returns results without the accent (using latin-1 version of the similar word).
This has me wondering how useful European Language IDNs really are...

Basically, since it seems a lot of native speakers of French, Italian, Spanish, German, Danish, Dutch, Swedish etc. etc. "replace" the accent letter with an English (latin character) letter when searching... will owning IDNs for European languages actually help Search Engine results?

Question:
If someone searches for the non-IDN version of a word (replaces accents with English letters) - what appears in the Search results?:-
a) Only non-IDN version is found? (e.g. if "Francais" is searched for... will only "Francais" results be returned?)
b) The non-IDN & also the IDN version? (e.g. "Francais" is searched for... and both "Francais" & "Français" results will be returned?
c) If "b)" is the result achieved - is there any priority given to the non-IDN version over the IDN version? (e.g. does "Francais" rank higher than "Français"?)

Basically this is a question on if it is useful to own European IDNs or if the English spelling version of a word (non-IDN) is actually more useful?

Any comments welcomed...

Thanks, Asiaplay
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Old 10th June 2007, 11:33 AM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Try searching your keywords in US Ovt, too. They do use those characters. I have always wondered why they don't show up in FR Ovt. Things will change.
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Old 10th June 2007, 12:39 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by burnsinternet
Try searching your keywords in US Ovt, too. They do use those characters. I have always wondered why they don't show up in FR Ovt. Things will change.
aparently not in ovt as overture is done updating... If Yahoo does as promised and provides us with a panama alternative in a few months maybe it will save the day.
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Old 10th June 2007, 02:42 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Of course the other problem is that at the moment most major search engines don't distinguish either.

I have to say I am not a massive fan of Latin IDN, particularly Western European.

Time will tell.
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Old 10th June 2007, 02:51 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Of course the other problem is that at the moment most major search engines don't distinguish either.

I have to say I am not a massive fan of Latin IDN, particularly Western European.

Time will tell.
Yahoo does.

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Old 10th June 2007, 02:53 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck

I have to say I am not a massive fan of Latin IDN, particularly Western European.
I am. And I still stick to my belief that Turkish is the best European language to invest in. People in Turkey search in their native language more than any other European country.

Here is Google trends of Turkey in Turkish:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=T%C3%BCrkiye%2C+turkiye
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Old 10th June 2007, 03:00 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

imo latin idns are the least needed out of any idns not to say they are bad or that a market for them wont occur at some point. I just dont think a accent is what is missing in their life
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Old 10th June 2007, 03:00 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

I think everyone pretty much searches on their native script, but in some instances there is some tendency towards simplification. I think Arabic, Greek and to a lesser extent Russian are affected most by this simplification. The problem is not so much whether they search on their native scripts but to what extent that is then transformed into traffic.

I think Turkic Scripts are going to be very good. These actually cover a much wider area than most people generally assume. Several special characters exist within these scripts that don't require additional effort to produce, as far as I am aware, provided you are using the local keyboard.
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Old 10th June 2007, 03:08 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsei21
imo latin idns are the least needed out of any idns not to say they are bad or that a market for them wont occur at some point. I just dont think a accent is what is missing in their life
You are, of course, misguided. My best (traffiwise) latin idn gets over 1500 hits a month. Can you tell the same with yours?
Do not underestimate nationalistic feelings of people. Nobody wants to search or use as an address a foreign language-people do it out of necessity now. This is why the whole idn thing came up. I have a double increase in latin idn hits so far this month only (spanish and portuguese mostly)and this is only the 10th of the month.
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Old 10th June 2007, 03:18 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgtbtu2
portuguese
Wow, do you really get decent traffic with your portuguese idns? How do you define decent traffic? Portuguese idns have been very disappointing.
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Old 10th June 2007, 03:21 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by idn
Wow, do you really get decent traffic with your portuguese idns? How do you define decent traffic? Portuguese idns have been very disappointing.
Depends on the term. 100-150 hits a month for a portuguese idn is good now, I think.
1500 I get from a spanish one.
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Old 10th June 2007, 04:29 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

It looks like 95% is a massive exaggeration. Almost as many as not add the accent.

Look at this:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%C3%A...ate=all&sort=0

(Once you have accounted for the Dutch users. Look in the lower right corner of the screen.)

Here is another example:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=am%C3...ate=all&sort=0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaplay
Hi All,

I proudly registered a French IDN for a keyword I wanted recently... and discussed this with a French friend.

My French native speaker friend then said to me... ohh... you know 95% of French users never use the special European special / accent characters ç é É â Â à À ë Ë etc. when searching online.
Namely as an example we replace the "ç" in "Français" and just type "Francais" (use English letters only as is easier).

I also notice in Overt that when-ever I put in a European Accent words it returns results without the accent (using latin-1 version of the similar word).
This has me wondering how useful European Language IDNs really are...

Basically, since it seems a lot of native speakers of French, Italian, Spanish, German, Danish, Dutch, Swedish etc. etc. "replace" the accent letter with an English (latin character) letter when searching... will owning IDNs for European languages actually help Search Engine results?

Question:
If someone searches for the non-IDN version of a word (replaces accents with English letters) - what appears in the Search results?:-
a) Only non-IDN version is found? (e.g. if "Francais" is searched for... will only "Francais" results be returned?)
b) The non-IDN & also the IDN version? (e.g. "Francais" is searched for... and both "Francais" & "Français" results will be returned?
c) If "b)" is the result achieved - is there any priority given to the non-IDN version over the IDN version? (e.g. does "Francais" rank higher than "Français"?)

Basically this is a question on if it is useful to own European IDNs or if the English spelling version of a word (non-IDN) is actually more useful?

Any comments welcomed...

Thanks, Asiaplay

Last edited by brianluedke; 10th June 2007 at 04:34 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 10th June 2007, 04:39 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Thai does well too. and gets good type in.

this is just one on my thai - stats for last month

.. and had been parked since Oct 2006, and is consistent every month, except this month where it is really flying



edit: ah! i thought this was the .com vs thread again..

i see its about European countries. oh well, i've posted now. just ignore me, i'm going to sun bathe some more.

Last edited by alpha; 10th June 2007 at 04:43 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 10th June 2007, 04:46 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Wow Alpha that IS impressive!
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Old 10th June 2007, 05:05 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaplay
Hi All,

My French native speaker friend then said to me... ohh... you know 95% of French users never use the special European special / accent characters ç é É â Â à À ë Ë etc. when searching online.
Namely as an example we replace the "ç" in "Français" and just type "Francais" (use English letters only as is easier).
How would your friend explain this then?

http://google.com/trends?q=Actualit%...ate=all&sort=0
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Old 10th June 2007, 05:10 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Explorer
How would your friend explain this then?

http://google.com/trends?q=Actualit%...ate=all&sort=0
Or this-for portuguese http://google.com/trends?q=justica%2...%C3%A7a&ctab=0
justiça-justice/legal system in general
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Old 10th June 2007, 06:09 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

On a tangent - I like the Latins because we have many Spanish speakers here in the US. Even if users decide to drop accents, it can be useful for branding. Sales to end-users will be local.

I think the same may happen with French speakers (Canada, Louisiana, etc.). Nationalism? Maybe. Probably. Identity! Branding! Yes! Follow the money.

This is my opinion only.
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Old 10th June 2007, 06:33 PM
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Lightbulb Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

Hi All,

I must admit my French friend is not an IDN or SEO expert... so was a learning question for me....

Really appreciate the feedback and answers... seems true that it is a mixed parcel.... and the use of accents is much higher than even I thought might be the case.

Brianluadke - thanks for showing me this on the google trend tools (I didn't know info like this existed free actually... so will be a great hand for me to study this a little more for the IDN words I have been looking at.... great example... and great tool - thanks...

Others - I agree - there will always be a mix of ease of typing (laziness) verse use of accents... however with more "accented" IDNs appearing... perhaps more people will start to try type in etc. (and maybe we will see an increase in accents in search engines).

Really appreciate all these comments... as they have really made me understand there is support for accents & therefore European IDNs - also now I have a tool to follow how this is changing over time for specific terms (and perhaps with a little work even accents)...

I guess since google trends shows this - perhaps google search results also manage to convert accented words / IDNs to become included in non-IDN results... this is what I am hoping anyway (namely that correct spelling of words in a language is supported, rather than penalised).

Thanks all - and feel free to add any comments...

I have learnt something really helpful - cheers, Asiaplay
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Old 10th June 2007, 09:05 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

To use my own best IDN as an example,

"Sénégal" currently shows 111 million results at Google, while "Senegal" returns 112. The topped ranked sites are almost identical, but there are slight differences on the rankings.

Interestingly, though, a search for "Sénégal.com" vs. "Senegal.com" shows that Google does know the difference between IDN and other domains. I am #1 with the first search, but no where on the list for the second search.

I think having Sénégal.com or Senegal.com would be a big advantage at Google, whether or not the Google user spells correctly with accents.

By the way, if you want to see a good example of a nice, developed IDN French Web site... (I published the first article yesterday. People are flowing in from my other site, lafrique.com, which has a prominent link.)

Brian

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaplay
Hi All,

I must admit my French friend is not an IDN or SEO expert... so was a learning question for me....

Really appreciate the feedback and answers... seems true that it is a mixed parcel.... and the use of accents is much higher than even I thought might be the case.

Brianluadke - thanks for showing me this on the google trend tools (I didn't know info like this existed free actually... so will be a great hand for me to study this a little more for the IDN words I have been looking at.... great example... and great tool - thanks...

Others - I agree - there will always be a mix of ease of typing (laziness) verse use of accents... however with more "accented" IDNs appearing... perhaps more people will start to try type in etc. (and maybe we will see an increase in accents in search engines).

Really appreciate all these comments... as they have really made me understand there is support for accents & therefore European IDNs - also now I have a tool to follow how this is changing over time for specific terms (and perhaps with a little work even accents)...

I guess since google trends shows this - perhaps google search results also manage to convert accented words / IDNs to become included in non-IDN results... this is what I am hoping anyway (namely that correct spelling of words in a language is supported, rather than penalised).

Thanks all - and feel free to add any comments...

I have learnt something really helpful - cheers, Asiaplay
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Old 10th June 2007, 10:55 PM
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Re: European IDNs (useful at all?) - how do search results work for Search Engines?

I speak Portuguese, Spanish and French and can clear this out:

I have told this before in here: There are accented words and there are accented words. Some words without accent have a complete different sound and thus they are very rarely used without the accent mark. Other however and when the sounding is similiar, are very often used without it. This is valid for all latin languages.

So, you have to speak those languages to understand what is worth and what is not.

I can, however, give you certain rules that apply any word:

For instance: words with the ñ x n for Spanish or the ç x c for Portuguese are very worth IDNs.
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