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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 1st March 2006, 01:05 PM
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The Sinister "Walled Garden"

For those of you who fear that your IDNs are now worthless as a consequence of the ill-informed "Boggy Man" stories going around this forum, you might try resolving some of the following just to assure yourselves that the Internet has not secretly been split in two:


中国供应商联盟.com
中国塑料.com
中国出口商品大全.com
中国硫化机.com
中国大型活动.com
中国塑协.com
中国民航博物馆.net
中国评价.com
中国民航博物馆.net
中国塑料机械.com
中国建筑防水.com
中国典当.com
中国互联网络信息中心.cn
中国绿色电力.com
中国汽车流通网.com
中国耐火材料行业网.com
中国信息.net
中国职业资格认证网.com
中国考试.com
中国三农信息服务网.com
中国企业维权.com
中国内衣网.com
中国直销企业网.com
中国楷模网.com
中国科技资讯联盟.com
中国商铺网.com
中国烟草科学.com
中国旅游图片网.com
中国管理咨询在线.com
中国天天房网.cn
中国人才库.com
中国人才库.com
中国福利彩票3d.com
中国乡村医药.com
中国石油工程.com
中国考试网.net
中国万网.com
中国绿茶.com
中国绿茶.com
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 1st March 2006 at 01:08 PM..
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Old 1st March 2006, 09:00 PM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Dave, from your post it looks like you've got completely the wrong end of the stick... I don't think ANYONE has suggested they will stop working outside China. The real test is will anyone IN China be able to resolve those in the near future?

In other words, what some have been wondering (note, nobody has said it WILL happen but people have said it MAY happen - very different thing) is will IDN .com domains resolve differently for people inside/outside China? And what impact such a change, if it comes, will have on potential traffic?
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Old 1st March 2006, 09:46 PM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin
In other words, what some have been wondering (note, nobody has said it WILL happen but people have said it MAY happen - very different thing) is will IDN .com domains resolve differently for people inside/outside China?
It is hard to imagine the Chinese wouldn't see the public relations disaster this would create to their image worldwide. Much less the impact it could have on their business around the globe. Compound that with the desire to showcase their cultural and economic strides during the 2008 Olympics are in Beijing. There are certainly other ways, maybe some not yet even developed to maintain the control and censorship they desire. If that fails or is unworkable, then something like this could be plausable. I think they are just shaking their fist and seeing if we are going to blink.
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Old 1st March 2006, 09:49 PM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Except that China already unilaterally blocks its citizens' access to thousands of sites, including the BBC and Wikipedia, so the idea that they don't want to upset anyone has pretty much fallen by the wayside.

Quote:
So Chinese netizens find themselves surfing in the shadow of the world's most sophisticated censorship machine, which is now more menacing than ever.

There is now an estimated 30,000-strong internet police force which, with the aid of Western-provided technology, is dedicated to monitoring websites and e-mails.

On a technical level the five gateways which connect China to the global internet filter traffic coming into and going out of the country.

Keyword blocking technology - much of it provided by western companies - is used to prevent access to offending sites.

Even the country's 110,000 internet cafés are now highly regulated and state-licensed, and all are equipped with standard surveillance systems.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ne/4587622.stm
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Old 1st March 2006, 09:57 PM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin
Dave, from your post it looks like you've got completely the wrong end of the stick... I don't think ANYONE has suggested they will stop working outside China. The real test is will anyone IN China be able to resolve those in the near future?

In other words, what some have been wondering (note, nobody has said it WILL happen but people have said it MAY happen - very different thing) is will IDN .com domains resolve differently for people inside/outside China? And what impact such a change, if it comes, will have on potential traffic?
Well, I didn't really think I had. I chose a whole selection of sites that are almost certainly hosted inside China. If there was a total separate Internet inside China as you suggest then, it would seem logical that we would not be able to access these sites. Are you really trying to tell me that under the new system people inside China will not be able to access Chinese sites hosted within China? That would not so much be separating the Chinese Internet from the rest of the World but more like pulling the socket out of the wall altogether!
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Old 1st March 2006, 11:01 PM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Again, you're over-reaching in interpreting what I'm posting.

If China has implemented its own system, it now has 100% control of "what points where" and it also has 30,000+ people ready to decide which way the traffic will go (see the BBC article). That's a LOT of resources to throw at the problem. So they could very easily already have determined which sites from the "outside" would be allowed to continue to resolve and which won't. Having the ability to block something is not automatically the same as blocking it.

Here's how we'll know for sure... if traffic to Chinese IDN domains that were getting useful amounts of traffic last month and before drops and stays low, that's a huge red flag that something has changed, and that the change is for the worse from a Chinese IDN domain investor working through ICANN's perspective. The exact extent and nature of the change may not become apparent until later, if at all (e.g. China is hardly likely to go out of its way to publicise exactly what the 30,000 people are doing and which sites make the cut or not).

On the other hand, if the reported falls in traffic reverse themselves and prove to be a temporary glitch, then we can all relax.
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Last edited by Edwin; 1st March 2006 at 11:03 PM..
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Old 2nd March 2006, 01:59 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Continuing the article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ne/4587622.stm

QUOTE: Equipped with the right know-how, some Chinese are already using more sophisticated technologies to beat the authorities at their own game. Advanced software for example allows users anonymously to redirect their internet activity through a third-party computer known as a proxy server, which is out of reach of the Chinese authorities. ENDQUOTE

Looks like it's already "game on" in China. There is also the issue of blogging that the article states has yet to be resolved by authorities. This is going to be a huge challenge however it plays out for Chinese politics and personal freedoms. As Technology has changed our world in the last 2 decades more than ever, I don't think the Chinese authorities are going to get this Genie back in the bottle very easy!
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Old 2nd March 2006, 02:36 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

I remember going to China and not able to read Yahoo Mail, because of the great firewall. A grad student friend whipped out a long list of free proxies and started going through them instead.

The pain they took on both sides of censorship war...
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Old 2nd March 2006, 07:22 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin
Again, you're over-reaching in interpreting what I'm posting.

If China has implemented its own system, it now has 100% control of "what points where" and it also has 30,000+ people ready to decide which way the traffic will go (see the BBC article). That's a LOT of resources to throw at the problem. So they could very easily already have determined which sites from the "outside" would be allowed to continue to resolve and which won't. Having the ability to block something is not automatically the same as blocking it.

Here's how we'll know for sure... if traffic to Chinese IDN domains that were getting useful amounts of traffic last month and before drops and stays low, that's a huge red flag that something has changed, and that the change is for the worse from a Chinese IDN domain investor working through ICANN's perspective. The exact extent and nature of the change may not become apparent until later, if at all (e.g. China is hardly likely to go out of its way to publicise exactly what the 30,000 people are doing and which sites make the cut or not).

On the other hand, if the reported falls in traffic reverse themselves and prove to be a temporary glitch, then we can all relax.

No, it is you that has attempted to single handedly trash the market in Chinese IDN with an extreme interpretation of single poorly interpreted article, based upon very little background knowledge. Furthermore, you are making additional interpretations on the back of Traffic Statistics you have not had clear sight off or properly understood the nature thereof. The following from Cirleid.com might help you to get up to speed:


China's New Domain Names: Lost in Translation
Feb 28, 2006 | Inside: Internet Governance
Posted by Rebecca MacKinnon Comments | Print | Email

This morning I got a bunch of alarmist messages from friends asking about this English-language People’s Daily article titled: China adds top-level domain names. The paragraph that’s freaking people out is:

Under the new system, besides “CN”, three Chinese TLD names “CN”, “COM” and “NET” are temporarily set. It means Internet users don’t have to surf the Web via the servers under the management of the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) of the United States.

Not for the first time, it appears that the People’s Daily’s English translation is very misleading.

Here is a Chinese language story on the subject, and here is the original announcement in Chinese on the Ministry of Information Industry website. Below are the two most important sections, which I am translating/explaining in English (please post corrections in the comments section if you read Chinese and think I got anything wrong):

二、我国互联网络域名体系在顶级域名"CN"之外暂设"中国"、"公司"和"网络"3个中文顶级域名。

2. “In China’s internet domain name system, aside from the “CN” top-level domains, there will be three Chinese language top-level domains: 中国 (which means “China"), 公司 (which means “company"), AND 网络 (which means “net")."

In other words, China is NOT, I repeat NOT creating alternative .COM and .NET top-level domains that would be separate from those now administered by ICANN. (Though it is true that CN, 中国, 公司, AND 网络 will not be administered by ICANN, but by a Chinese entity.)
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Old 2nd March 2006, 07:39 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Well, i guess China is trying to leapfrog ICANN for .公司 and .网络, a very smart commercial and political move, in my opinion. The plan has been there since 2 years back, and all the lobbying for Microsoft to include idn plugin, etc, are all part of the plan to introduce 'easy to remember' and 'short' domains for chinese users.

It looks to me that ICANN has to come out with a different extension for .com and .net in Chinese. I would recommend single character .商 and .网.

Whatever it is, good domains are still good domains, be it .中国 or .公司 or .商.

Last edited by touchring; 2nd March 2006 at 07:53 AM..
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Old 2nd March 2006, 07:45 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Dave, I don't understand why you think I'm setting out to "trash" anything. What would be the point of such a time-wasting exercise?

I am posting interpretations of what MIGHT be happening. I have been at pains to clearly indicate that these interpretations rest on a foundation that depends on certain things happening, and should be seen in that context.

As the other thread's link showed, the real "reality" seems to be closer to the fact that China is taking control (or more active control) over a Chinese extension that they see as ".com in Chinese" rather than control of .com itself. This may yet have a significant negative impact on Chinese-language IDNs, we'll have to wait and see.

At the same time, China is famous for its over-arching control over the Web as seen by its citizens - Google "great firewall of China" with quotes and you get over 200,000 articles addressing this!

Other countries, such as Japan and Russia, exert absolutely no country-level control that I've heard of over the traffic that is allowed to pass through their country. Of course, local ISPs may implement some blocking (never heard of any here, though) but by and large it's a total free-for-all.

No matter what the precise facts are behind the most recent China IDN story, it is impossible to realistically spin any change they bring, no matter how small, in a way that is "good" for Chinese IDN. At the very very best, nothing has changed, but all other interpretations are "bad" for Chinese IDN prospects.
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Old 2nd March 2006, 07:53 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwrixon
In other words, China is NOT, I repeat NOT creating alternative .COM and .NET top-level domains that would be separate from those now administered by ICANN. (Though it is true that CN, 中国, 公司, AND 网络 will not be administered by ICANN, but by a Chinese entity.)
Read this quote again Dave......... (the part from you i quoted)

ICANN will not be administrating these


so if they do map onto the same ext in .com (non idnized) why would the .com .net in english equivalent be any different? It seems that China is up to something and we should see a drop in traffic on our chinese idns. (meaning all english .com's are administered by icann)

Right now alot of people don't know whats going on... Your opinion is just as good as everyone elses.... Just because you have 10,000 domains doesn't mean you are a scholar.
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Old 2nd March 2006, 08:02 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
Read this quote again Dave......... (the part from you i quoted)

ICANN will not be administrating these


so if they do map onto the same ext in .com (non idnized) why would the .com .net in english equivalent be any different? It seems that China is up to something and we should see a drop in traffic on our chinese idns. (meaning all english .com's are administered by icann)

Right now alot of people don't know whats going on... Your opinion is just as good as everyone elses.... Just because you have 10,000 domains doesn't mean you are a scholar.

Well, that's how money is made - people that understand the whole situation buys the domains at cheap prices from people that do not understand, or better still, just register them off the shelf.
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Old 2nd March 2006, 08:05 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
Well, i guess China is trying to leapfrog ICANN for .公司 and .网络, a very smart commercial and political move, in my opinion. The plan has been there since 2 years back, and all the lobbying for Microsoft to include idn plugin, etc, are all part of the plan to introduce 'easy to remember' and 'short' domains for chinese users.

It looks to me that ICANN has to come out with a different extension for .com and .net in Chinese. I would recommend single character .商 and .网.

Whatever it is, good domains are still good domains, be it .中国 or .公司 or .商.
I think you will find that deal has already been done. From a TM standpoint China got there first so Verisign doesn't have a leg to stand on.

The symbol used by Verisign is not hugely important as whatever they choose will become synomous with dot com. There might be some short-term confusion amongst poorly informed speculators, but none of the major corporates are going to migrate to 公司.

From the Chinese perspective it doesn't really matter greatly. Revenue generated by domain registration are chicken feed compared with the impact that proper implementation of IDN.IDN will have on their economy as whole. China is puttting pressure on everyone to go ahead with this. ICANN and Verisign are now in a panic that they will miss the boat. In my opinion DName will be rolled out by the end of the year.
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Old 2nd March 2006, 08:10 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwrixon
I think you will find that deal has already been done. From a TM standpoint China got there first so Verisign doesn't have a leg to stand on.

The symbol used by Verisign is not hugely important as whatever they choose will become synomous with dot com. There might be some short-term confusion amongst poorly informed speculators, but none of the major corporates are going to migrate to 公司.

From the Chinese perspective it doesn't really matter greatly. Revenue generated by domain registration are chicken feed compared with the impact that proper implementation of IDN.IDN will have on their economy as whole. China is puttting pressure on everyone to go ahead with this. ICANN and Verisign are now in a panic that they will miss the boat. In my opinion DName will be rolled out by the end of the year.

IMO, there will be a market for both. But Verisign must implement that IDN.IDN within the next two years the latest to have any chance of obtaining any reasonable amount of mindshare for IDN.IDN.

Last edited by touchring; 2nd March 2006 at 08:18 AM..
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Old 2nd March 2006, 08:10 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin
Dave, I don't understand why you think I'm setting out to "trash" anything. What would be the point of such a time-wasting exercise?

I am posting interpretations of what MIGHT be happening. I have been at pains to clearly indicate that these interpretations rest on a foundation that depends on certain things happening, and should be seen in that context.

As the other thread's link showed, the real "reality" seems to be closer to the fact that China is taking control (or more active control) over a Chinese extension that they see as ".com in Chinese" rather than control of .com itself. This may yet have a significant negative impact on Chinese-language IDNs, we'll have to wait and see.

At the same time, China is famous for its over-arching control over the Web as seen by its citizens - Google "great firewall of China" with quotes and you get over 200,000 articles addressing this!

Other countries, such as Japan and Russia, exert absolutely no country-level control that I've heard of over the traffic that is allowed to pass through their country. Of course, local ISPs may implement some blocking (never heard of any here, though) but by and large it's a total free-for-all.

No matter what the precise facts are behind the most recent China IDN story, it is impossible to realistically spin any change they bring, no matter how small, in a way that is "good" for Chinese IDN. At the very very best, nothing has changed, but all other interpretations are "bad" for Chinese IDN prospects.

Well, I certainly wouldn't give you a job in PR!

The real news is that what I and many other thought had already been implemented actually hadn't, but it has now.

No, this is very good for IDN in general because it means that ICANN will have to get their finger out and implement IDN.IDN worldwide.

The Firewall, well nothing has changed their. It was there last week and will be there next week!
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Old 2nd March 2006, 08:12 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwrixon

The symbol used by Verisign is not hugely important as whatever they choose will become synomous with dot com. There might be some short-term confusion amongst poorly informed speculators, but none of the major corporates are going to migrate to 公司.
Please quote your source. How exactly would you know the corporates aren't going to get them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwrixon
Well, I certainly wouldn't give you a job in PR!

The real news is that what I and many other thought had already been implemented actually hadn't, but it has now.

No, this is very good for IDN in general because it means that ICANN will have to get their finger out and implement IDN.IDN worldwide.

The Firewall, well nothing has changed their. It was there last week and will be there next week!
Please read the quote one last time.... Did you read the same article the rest of us read? ICANN doesn't even know what China is saying with their own native character .com's. How is this good for idn.com chinese holders? LOL ... Thought so... its the opposite case here. IDN chinese owners right now are screwed
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Old 2nd March 2006, 08:20 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
Read this quote again Dave......... (the part from you i quoted)

ICANN will not be administrating these


so if they do map onto the same ext in .com (non idnized) why would the .com .net in english equivalent be any different? It seems that China is up to something and we should see a drop in traffic on our chinese idns. (meaning all english .com's are administered by icann)

Right now alot of people don't know whats going on... Your opinion is just as good as everyone elses.... Just because you have 10,000 domains doesn't mean you are a scholar.
There is no change to the mapping of dot com.

What has happened is that new extentions have been introduced that use punycode strings. I am not sure whether this has been done by introducing these into the Root or by DName mapping. I suspect that Verisign has assisted with the latter and is using PRC as a test bed. Obviously, these new extensions only work in China as no changes have been made to ICANN Root Servers.

You could not previous get dot CN by typing in Chinese characters from outside China, but you now can from inside. That really is about all that has changed. The other two extension to date have been on sale for a year or more but to my knowledge have negligible registrations. Perhaps if they actually work someone might buy them!

Well, the number of domains you hold is an indication of how long you have been doing this and how much research you have done. It also means that you are not just talking because you have discovered that you have the ability to do so!
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Old 2nd March 2006, 08:21 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
Please quote your source. How exactly would you know the corporates aren't going to get them?


Please read the quote one last time.... Did you read the same article the rest of us read? ICANN doesn't even know what China is saying with their own native character .com's. How is this good for idn.com chinese holders? LOL ... Thought so... its the opposite case here. IDN chinese owners right now are screwed
My offer to bail runners out still stands. Kenne has also indicated he will help. :p
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Old 2nd March 2006, 08:25 AM
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Re: The Sinister "Walled Garden"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
Please quote your source. How exactly would you know the corporates aren't going to get them?


Please read the quote one last time.... Did you read the same article the rest of us read? ICANN doesn't even know what China is saying with their own native character .com's. How is this good for idn.com chinese holders? LOL ... Thought so... its the opposite case here. IDN chinese owners right now are screwed
As Edwin has pointed out on a number of occassions, large corporates are not going to change URL without a very good reason. There is no good reason for anyone to migrate to an extension that has virtually no registrations and is surrounded by uncertainty. This is a no brainer in view.

Don't get your point at all on the second one!
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