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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 6th March 2006, 04:14 AM
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For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Lets say an IDN.com was available in both simplified and traditional chinese characters and you only had enough $ to reg one. Would you reg the traditional or simplified version and why or is it irrelevant.
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Old 6th March 2006, 05:47 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranttheKiwi
Lets say an IDN.com was available in both simplified and traditional chinese characters and you only had enough $ to reg one. Would you reg the traditional or simplified version and why or is it irrelevant.
Depends on the name. If it's related to gambling, you might want to buy the traditional version as it will convert better.
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Old 6th March 2006, 05:55 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

I'm confused. You can only reg one. Right?

[i know i know, you did say "for the sake of argument". But still want to be sure]


Now, if I do have a choice, I'd always go for simplified (except for gambling and possible sex or religion related).

40M-100M Chinese (spread all over the world) use the traditional version, 1.4B Chinese in a single market use the simplified; so it's no brainer.
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Last edited by kenne; 6th March 2006 at 06:08 AM..
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Old 6th March 2006, 06:28 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenne
I'm confused. You can only reg one. Right?

[i know i know, you did say "for the sake of argument". But still want to be sure]


Now, if I do have a choice, I'd always go for simplified (except for gambling and possible sex or religion related).

40M-100M Chinese (spread all over the world) use the traditional version, 1.4B Chinese in a single market use the simplified; so it's no brainer.

Yes, you can register only one and you will be stuck with it for life, until you delete the domain.

Technically, it's possible to register the wrong version and it can be worth only 0.1% or less of the other version. Especially when you register a word used only in China but not Taiwan in traditional Chinese, and vice versa.
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Old 6th March 2006, 06:41 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Yeah. CNNIC solves the problem much better by giving you the other version for free, when you register one version of ABC.cn;

I wish ICANN will do something like that. Of course, the regs prior to the block should be allowed to continue their separate lives; but regs after the block, should get the other version for free.
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Old 6th March 2006, 06:52 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenne
Yeah. CNNIC solves the problem much better by giving you the other version for free, when you register one version of ABC.cn;

I wish ICANN will do something like that. Of course, the regs prior to the block should be allowed to continue their separate lives; but regs after the block, should get the other version for free.

I think they would not do that, as their variant block works for chinese versus japanese (and also some european languages versus other european languages), so it will be confusing if they allowed people to have both or all 3 versions (i've seen a few cases where there are 3 variants) - simplified, traditional, japanese. I believe there are also names in which 4 or more variants are possible. :-)

Last edited by touchring; 6th March 2006 at 06:54 AM..
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Old 6th March 2006, 07:05 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

hmmm. Then it's gonna be pain forever and ever, especially for product and services that's essentially cross borders combined with language that's essentially cross borders.

Say a taiwanese friend tells a mainlander, go to 小说.com to read some interesting new online novels. he will have to spell out it's 小说.com the traditional version, otherwise you go to the simplified version, you will hit a blank.

While the same problem also exists for the regs prior to the block, but at least theoretically, in time, those regs will go away, enabling unification of the forked versions. In this case, the problem will always be there, forever and forever.

That said, I know of no better solution other than military solution of some kind.

What's the case where 4 versions exist btw?
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Old 6th March 2006, 07:22 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

I believe there are cases where even there are 2 versions for a single language, so that's how 4 versions will appear.
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Old 6th March 2006, 07:24 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

No, it is understood that the other version will be made available in due course to the original registrant. I shoud know, I have a version of Computer that is more commonly used in the PRC in traditional Chinese. There is currently, however, no mechanism for doing this, but is on the Verisign site somewhere so if they don't they could get their butts sued!

The good new is that in terms of SEO, I believe both versions are equivalent. Certainly, at one point they were producing the same search results.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenne
hmmm. Then it's gonna be pain forever and ever, especially for product and services that's essentially cross borders combined with language that's essentially cross borders.

Say a taiwanese friend tells a mainlander, go to 小说.com to read some interesting new online novels. he will have to spell out it's 小说.com the traditional version, otherwise you go to the simplified version, you will hit a blank.

While the same problem also exists for the regs prior to the block, but at least theoretically, in time, those regs will go away, enabling unification of the forked versions. In this case, the problem will always be there, forever and forever.

That said, I know of no better solution other than military solution of some kind.

What's the case where 4 versions exist btw?
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Old 6th March 2006, 07:41 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Great. So they will give access to the blocked/unused version sometime, if I understand you correctly...

Kiwi, this is not a dumb question. I'm learning something everyday
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Old 6th March 2006, 07:54 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenne
Great. So they will give access to the blocked/unused version sometime, if I understand you correctly...

Kiwi, this is not a dumb question. I'm learning something everyday

I think this variant thing is more complicated for idn.com, one has to consider there are so many different languages. For idn.cn, it's simple, there's only chinese involved.

I'm a little worried about those phishing domains going around in the market, if some phishing news involving IDNs goes onto News.com or CNN, Verisign is going to clamp down on variants, may even start cancelling those mixed latin + Cryllic/Macedonian domains, let alone give access to blocked/unused versions. Perhaps Verisign might even be liable for damages caused by phishing - any legal experts here? mr idn?

Last edited by touchring; 6th March 2006 at 08:03 AM..
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Old 6th March 2006, 08:18 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Touchring, I now understand what you are concerned about.

I came from east asian perspective which doesn't have this problem (right?), so am not familiar with european scripts which may cause phishing attacks.

I sort of assumed that the responsibility for preventing phishing attack lies more with browser implementation than registration. Curious what the european IDN experts think too.
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Last edited by kenne; 6th March 2006 at 08:26 AM..
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Old 6th March 2006, 08:20 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
I think this variant thing is more complicated for idn.com, one has to consider there are so many different languages. For idn.cn, it's simple, there's only chinese involved.

I'm a little worried about those phishing domains going around in the market, if some phishing news involving IDNs goes onto News.com or CNN, Verisign is going to clamp down on variants, may even start cancelling those mixed latin + Cryllic/Macedonian domains, let alone give access to blocked/unused versions. Perhaps Verisign might even be liable for damages caused by phishing - any legal experts here? mr idn?
Don't think so. If Verisign is following ICANN guidelines then it would be difficult to prove negligence, which is the legal basis of any claim. Verisign won't delete anything without a formal directive from ICANN.

I don't see that the block on Chinese Character Tables is any different for dot CN or dot Com. They should be using the same mapping tables. The block was essentially sponsored by the PRC, so they have been geared up better to deal with this from day one and consequently have no legacy problem.

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Old 6th March 2006, 08:28 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenne
Touchring, I now understand what you are concerned about.

I came from east asian perspective which doesn't have this problem (right?), so am not familiar with european scripts which may cause phishing attacks.

I sort of assumed that the responsibility for preventing phishing attack lies more with browser implementation than registration (as long as registration is nonmixed). Curious what the european IDN experts think too.

It's now not possible to register those fake cc.com and alikes - they were registered before the variant tables for such phishing domains were created. When you try to register a phishing domain in which a latin or idn look alike exists, 'variant error' will be returned. I actually tried that a few mths ago for fun, things might change by now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwrixon
Don't think so. If Verisign is following ICANN guidelines then it would be difficult to prove negligence, which is the legal basis of any claim. Verisign won't delete anything without a formal directive from ICANN.

I don't see that the block on Chinese Character Tables is any different for dot CN or dot Com. They should be using the same mapping tables. The block was essentially sponsored by the PRC, so they have been geared up better to deal with this from day one and consequently have no legacy problem.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

I've actually checked with Verisign on this issue, they will not lift the variant blocks, unless China, Taiwan and Japan NICs lift them by redefining the tables.

Last edited by touchring; 6th March 2006 at 08:32 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 6th March 2006, 08:48 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenne
Touchring, I now understand what you are concerned about.

I came from east asian perspective which doesn't have this problem (right?), so am not familiar with european scripts which may cause phishing attacks.

I sort of assumed that the responsibility for preventing phishing attack lies more with browser implementation than registration. Curious what the european IDN experts think too.
The grossly irritating point about phishing attacks is that, IDN have only been responsible for a tiny minority of such attacks and will provide the people of Asia very substantial protection against such attacks by allowing them to navigate in characters with which they are familiar.

It will also remove the massive ambiguities caused by the plurality of transliteration that exists. Some Hanzi or Kanji have numberous transliterations.
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Old 6th March 2006, 08:51 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwrixon
The grossly irritating point about phishing attacks is that, IDN have only been responsible for a tiny minority of such attacks and will provide the people of Asia very substantial protection against such attacks by allowing them to navigate in characters with which they are familiar.

It will also remove the massive ambiguities caused by the plurality of transliteration that exists. Some Hanzi or Kanji have numberous transliterations.

The phishing attacks will be as usual, Paypal/Ebay - i receive a few every week, sometimes a few a day.
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Old 6th March 2006, 08:59 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
The phishing attacks will be as usual, Paypal/Ebay - i receive a few every week, sometimes a few a day.
Yes, Ebay seem to have managed to blame the Hanzi writing system for the chaos that has been cause by their gross negligence in protecting customers agains fraud. No wonder they are not welcome in China!
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Old 6th March 2006, 11:41 AM
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Re: For the sake of argument (and perhaps a dumb question)

In Japan many variant, old, characters, are used in names and for formal writing...

They may not necessarily even convey the same meaning anymore, since they are used in very different ways, contexts, and purposes.

About Chinese see:
micro tutorial: what's the difference between simplified & traditional chinese, and are they separate in unicode?
http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/chinese/

Last edited by blastfromthepast; 6th March 2006 at 12:03 PM..
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