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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 1st January 2008, 09:02 PM
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Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk8ZFAM2N2s

Did we actually learn anything from previous threads? These keyboards don't even look like the dual language QWERTY Keyboards!
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Old 1st January 2008, 09:13 PM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

OK. So that's how they type in Japanese...at least some. Amazing.
Now i really want to know how they type the .com on these keyboards
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Old 1st January 2008, 11:55 PM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

Yeah. That's pretty cool.
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Old 2nd January 2008, 02:26 AM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

早い!
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Old 2nd January 2008, 03:44 AM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

You guys just crack me up. A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing. You should take this video in context. It's a piece from some tv variety show. Think of it as part of an episode of "That's Incredible" or "Amazing Stories" in the U.S. or something. It is on youtube and this tv show precisely because it is so absolutely rare, unheard of, never seen before by 99% of Japanese people.

The keyboard itself does not even make its way into wikipedia's list of Japanese keyboard types (Japanese wikipedia that is). In this video the reporter asks "this keyboard is totally different from PC keyboards, how does it work?" The close-caption typist explains that this keyboard works off a single line of keys she uses her left and right hand simultaneously. One does consonent sounds and the other does vowels to create the required kana. In other words it appears to use IME but instead of one key at a time, it types in romaji two keys at a time.

Hopefully this sheds light on the video and you can go back to your previously scheduled programming. This changes nothing.
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Old 2nd January 2008, 04:09 AM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

They call this the shorthand machine - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype. Nowadays it uses PC software.

I know they use it for chinese reporting as well as my friend's sister is a reporter and he told me she can type faster than a person can speak.

This kind of IME method is popular among people in certain professions like reporters, writers, some lawyers, court stenographers.

Last edited by touchring; 2nd January 2008 at 04:16 AM..
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Old 2nd January 2008, 05:21 AM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

Of course Rhys and Touch are both right to a large extent.

But I am not sure the explanations are complete or indeed totally accurate.

Yes, this machine is almost certainly unheard of, and most Japanese won't have seen it. Yes it is a Stenograph in principal, but it is not just an adoption of a Western version.

What the mobile phone seems to have done is take a 9x5 Matrix of Hiragana characters and basically defined their position from two keystrokes using a RACE technique (Row and Column Encoding). This would seem to enable the Japanese to input at much higher speeds than westerners on a mobile.

This method seems to have been adopted for this Stenograph. I don't think there is any Romaji involved here. It is obviously a very logical and effective means of inputting which the Japanese seem to have mastered on the mobile phones. If the technique is indeed now being transferred back to a PC style keyboard, who knows where it could go? It seems that whilst we are hankering for Qwerty on a mobile the Japanese may be more at ease with a Mobile style keyboard for a PC. Think about it, this would be a huge advantage even on an iPhone!

What was obvious is there was little or no IME Kanji conversion going on, but I am guessing that if you have Hirigana input the Software can convert the whole lot at the end.
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 2nd January 2008 at 05:34 AM..
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Old 2nd January 2008, 08:41 PM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck

This method seems to have been adopted for this Stenograph. I don't think there is any Romaji involved here. It is obviously a very logical and effective means of inputting which the Japanese seem to have mastered on the mobile phones. If the technique is indeed now being transferred back to a PC style keyboard, who knows where it could go? It seems that whilst we are hankering for Qwerty on a mobile the Japanese may be more at ease with a Mobile style keyboard for a PC. Think about it, this would be a huge advantage even on an iPhone!

What was obvious is there was little or no IME Kanji conversion going on, but I am guessing that if you have Hirigana input the Software can convert the whole lot at the end.
The mobile phone input method offers a ray of hope for direct input. But so far there is no evidence of this going back to PCs. If Touch is right and this is a steno device it makes perfect sense because the video is about women who speed type the subtitles for close caption tv for the deaf and use specialized equipment to do so. I think hoping that this is going to lead to a boom of new PC keyboards would be nice but reminds me of a cargo cult, you are praying to non-existent gods to save you.

Also, I beg to differ that this is direct input and not IME. If you look at the closeup of the keys she is whaling on, you see romaji not kana. I rest my case.

Last edited by rhys; 2nd January 2008 at 08:59 PM..
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Old 2nd January 2008, 10:11 PM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhys
Also, I beg to differ that this is direct input and not IME. If you look at the closeup of the keys she is whaling on, you see romaji not kana. I rest my case.
Actually I see both. Latin on Right Hand Side of Keys, Hiragana on the Left.

Obviously as written Japanese has Latin Characters anyway, all key boards must have them.

However, there is an over-riding logic to compiling Japanese syllables from two keys because effectively each character is made of two of Latin Letters. That is how the Romanji inputting method works. Two letters to each syllable.

Vowels effectively modify the basic character or constant. So each syllable needs to know the basic character that is on the mobile phone and which form 1-5 that these basic character takes. This is clearly more intuitive to Japanese people than trying to work it out from a Qwerty keyboard that was specifically optimised to allow those letters used most frequently in English to be the most readily accessible. The Japanese don't even have all our letters in their Romaji. A Qwerty keyboard certainly does not reflect the frequency of use of the various sounds in Japanese.

One prediction I will make, is that if this is not how this one actually works, an even faster and successful Stenotype will be built that uses the concept of identifying Hiragana, as with the mobile phone, from this basic matrix:


か ka き ki く ku け ke こ ko
さ sa し shi す su せ se そ so
た ta ち chi つ tsu て te と to
な na に ni ぬ nu ね ne の no
は ha ひ hi ふ fu へ he ほ ho
ま ma み mi む mu め me も mo
や ya ----- ゆ yu ----- よ yo
ら ra り ri る ru れ re ろ ro
わ wa ゐ wi ----- ゑ we を wo

It must come because this is going to involve the minimum number of keystrokes from the least number of keys and be the most intuitive because keystrokes relate directly to the phonetics. Whilst you may not get the vast majority of Japanese to use an optimised keyboard, Stenographers will stop at nothing to achieve the holy grail in typing speed.
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 2nd January 2008 at 10:20 PM..
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Old 3rd January 2008, 01:21 AM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

Keep dreaming. She says in the video that the left hand types the consonent and the right hand types the vowel. Can't do that with hiragana or katakana by its very definition. It's romaji she is typing in, I am afraid.
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Old 3rd January 2008, 01:23 AM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

When I saw her typing so fast I assumed that software was doing autocompletion of some kind. It's truly amazing. Notice how her fingers barely moved. That's possible because the few actual sounds japanese make and the rearrangement of querty keyboard.

RD refer to another study that shows young japanese typing twice as fast on cellphone as on querty. probably the same effect. I expected that a keyboard featuring full hirigana would be at least twice as fast, but the dozen key keyboard is twice as fast is pretty cool.
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Old 3rd January 2008, 01:52 AM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

I agree it is truly amazing how fast she types. I just want to make sure that folks reading this thread do not get the wrong impression that this is how Japanese people input into their PCs. It's just plain wrong. I doubt more than 1000 people in Japan know how to operate the machine shown in this video. I also bet that this machine has existed for a while now and that it will never cross over into the mainstream.

Mobile handset typing is a very different beast and pretty straightforward compared to what the stenographer is shown doing in the video. For one thing on a mobile phone you just enter kana in directly and input is organized by consonent sound. press 2 for "ka ki ku ke ko", 3 for "sa si su se so", 4 for "ta ti tsu te to", and so on. The star button can change the sound to reflect the voiced and bilabial equivalent of the sound that is "ga gi gu ge go" instead of "ka ki ku ke ko" or "pa pi pu pe po" or "ba bi bu be bo" instead of "ha hi hu he ho"
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Old 3rd January 2008, 04:04 AM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

Rubber must be a very stubborn type of material, it's not yielding to truth and facts no matter what.
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Old 3rd January 2008, 05:13 AM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

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Originally Posted by Giant
Rubber must be a very stubborn type of material, it's not yielding to truth and facts no matter what.
Maybe, but not as bad as MS man that spent 6 years thinking that ICANN was going to put Unicode directly into the Root to accommodate their IE6 browser, despite no supporting evidence whatsoever.
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Old 3rd January 2008, 06:16 AM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

three jap phones with qwerty keypads!





http://www.mobiletopsoft.com/images/...Bank_X01HT.gif
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Old 3rd January 2008, 07:20 AM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

The typical European (whether british, american, german, or even russian) will not quite understand that Asian languages are pictorial character based and typing using roman alphabet that comes with the QWERTY keyboard is the easiest form of data entry.

The typical European will also not believe that the input method will have no impact on whether people will use IDNs, whatsoever.

Last edited by touchring; 3rd January 2008 at 07:27 AM..
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Old 3rd January 2008, 07:31 AM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhys
The keyboard itself does not even make its way into wikipedia's list of Japanese keyboard types (Japanese wikipedia that is). In this video the reporter asks "this keyboard is totally different from PC keyboards, how does it work?" The close-caption typist explains that this keyboard works off a single line of keys she uses her left and right hand simultaneously. One does consonent sounds and the other does vowels to create the required kana. In other words it appears to use IME but instead of one key at a time, it types in romaji two keys at a time.

Hopefully this sheds light on the video and you can go back to your previously scheduled programming. This changes nothing.
Before you get get away home and dry with your attempt at ridicule, I am afraid I am going to have to throw one more spanner into the works.

Superficially, your explanation above would require about two dozen keys on those two lower inputting rows just for the Romaji characters without counting any special keys that might be needed. Furthermore, if you look closely each key has multiple marking for Latin characters some seem to have 3 Latin letters. The reason that the QWERTY keyboard is the size it is because of the number of letter is the Latin character set. Of course the Stenograph chords method could be used to generate Romaji syllables, but this hardly fits with the explanation given. It might just be that the lady giving the explanation is aware that kana characters are syllables that comprise a consonant and a vowel. I took this mean the characters on the Japanese phone keyboard followed by the five explicit Hiragana vowels, in pairs as described.
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Old 3rd January 2008, 01:16 PM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Before you get get away home and dry with your attempt at ridicule, I am afraid I am going to have to throw one more spanner into the works.

Superficially, your explanation above would require about two dozen keys on those two lower inputting rows just for the Romaji characters without counting any special keys that might be needed. Furthermore, if you look closely each key has multiple marking for Latin characters some seem to have 3 Latin letters. The reason that the QWERTY keyboard is the size it is because of the number of letter is the Latin character set. Of course the Stenograph chords method could be used to generate Romaji syllables, but this hardly fits with the explanation given. It might just be that the lady giving the explanation is aware that kana characters are syllables that comprise a consonant and a vowel. I took this mean the characters on the Japanese phone keyboard followed by the five explicit Hiragana vowels, in pairs as described.
RD I have no idea which part of my post you regard as ridicule so why don't you point it out to me so that I can properly apologize. I certainly was not trying to ridicule you, although I admit that I am annoyed that you keep trying to prove that japanese people use an input method that they clearly do not and you are confusing people. I also dislike the way you callously dismiss information provided to you by people who speak and write Japanese (myself included) and insinuate that a youtube video is the real way Japanese type their language. I admit that I feel like just giving up and saying that you are right just to end this banter, but I do believe that the purpose of the forum is to disseminate actual information as opposed to fantasy and armchair speculation so this keeps me going.

As for your assertion above. I estimate it would take about 15 main keys to type Japanese using romaji - both consonents and vowels. A clever designer could probably compress this further. Things like bilabial or voiced alternatives can be generated using some shift or function key. So what I am saying is perfectly possible given the limited shot we had of the keyboard in the video.

I don't even know why you care about this so much RD. It is bizarre to me. It doesn't matter one iota whether japanese use romaji or kana to write japanese. They are still writing Japanese not English and they feel very comfortable doing it. This doesn't fundamentally effect the argument for Japanese IDN going forward.

So in conclusion, I meant no disrespect to you although I am truly annoyed with you right now.
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Old 3rd January 2008, 01:31 PM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

Quote:
Yes, this machine is almost certainly unheard of, and most Japanese won't have seen it. Yes it is a Stenograph in principal, but it is not just an adoption of a Western version.
I don't think I ever suggested that this was being widely used at present or indeed would necessarily be widely used in the future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rhys
RD I have no idea which part of my post you regard as ridicule so why don't you point it out to me so that I can properly apologize. I certainly was not trying to ridicule you, although I admit that I am annoyed that you keep trying to prove that japanese people use an input method that they clearly do not and you are confusing people. I also dislike the way you callously dismiss information provided to you by people who speak and write Japanese (myself included) and insinuate that a youtube video is the real way Japanese type their language. I admit that I feel like just giving up and saying that you are right just to end this banter, but I do believe that the purpose of the forum is to disseminate actual information as opposed to fantasy and armchair speculation so this keeps me going.

As for your assertion above. I estimate it would take about 15 main keys to type Japanese using romaji - both consonents and vowels. A clever designer could probably compress this further. Things like bilabial or voiced alternatives can be generated using some shift or function key. So what I am saying is perfectly possible given the limited shot we had of the keyboard in the video.

I don't even know why you care about this so much RD. It is bizarre to me. It doesn't matter one iota whether japanese use romaji or kana to write japanese. They are still writing Japanese not English and they feel very comfortable doing it. This doesn't fundamentally effect the argument for Japanese IDN going forward.

So in conclusion, I meant no disrespect to you although I am truly annoyed with you right now.
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Old 3rd January 2008, 11:40 PM
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Re: Japanese Keyboard Typing Master

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk8ZFAM2N2s

Did we actually learn anything from previous threads? These keyboards don't even look like the dual language QWERTY Keyboards!
RD,

To address your confusion, here is how I interpret what you wrote above:

"Rhys and the other Japanese speakers from the other thread either don't know what they are talking about or are just ignorant, they've fed us bollocks. I have known this all along, this is the real way that Japanese people input Japanese."
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