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Old 20th March 2006, 08:29 AM
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Chaos about IDN implementation...

Though this has been talked about before at least n times, there still seems to be no clear sight in view yet. Oflate, there have been depressing noises at other forums about IDN.COM per say. To get hopefully a better perspective on the state-of-the-art, let me throw a these two critical questions to the folks here to comment on.

1. If IDN.IDN is DNAMEd to IDN.COM, can we say, "Peace on Earth" to our IDN.COMs?

2. If IDN.IDN is implemented separately at the root, can we say that all our IDN.COMs are doomed?

Raj
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Old 20th March 2006, 08:30 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbiohealth
Though this has been talked about before at least n times, there still seems to be no clear sight in view yet. Oflate, there have been depressing noises at other forums about IDN.COM per say. To get hopefully a better perspective on the state-of-the-art, let me throw a these two critical questions to the folks here to comment on.

1. If IDN.IDN is DNAMEd to IDN.COM, can we say, "Peace on Earth" to our IDN.COMs?

2. If IDN.IDN is implemented separately at the root, can we say that all our IDN.COMs are doomed?

Raj
It would make more sense to dname it... They really want the current extensions like .com to be typed by ppl worldwide in their native language...

so someone typing in .china (IDN) will land on a .cn etc
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Old 20th March 2006, 08:39 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbiohealth
Though this has been talked about before at least n times, there still seems to be no clear sight in view yet. Oflate, there have been depressing noises at other forums about IDN.COM per say. To get hopefully a better perspective on the state-of-the-art, let me throw a these two critical questions to the folks here to comment on.

1. If IDN.IDN is DNAMEd to IDN.COM, can we say, "Peace on Earth" to our IDN.COMs?

2. If IDN.IDN is implemented separately at the root, can we say that all our IDN.COMs are doomed?

Raj
No, these are technical options not policy options.

The first has to be the preferred solution, due to its comparative simplicity and apparent ease of implementation.

The second is at best an temporary, ad hoc partial solution to the problem. If DName works it will be implemented. If it doesn't work, it will be made to work!
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Old 20th March 2006, 08:49 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Jeff, we all perhaps know which option is better of the two, however, my question is not about which one is better or worse. What I would like to know is the potential affect of these two on our IDN.COMs?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
It would make more sense to dname it... They really want the current extensions like .com to be typed by ppl worldwide in their native language...

so someone typing in .china (IDN) will land on a .cn etc
Dave, is this based on actual ground realities or conjecture? How are you so sure about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
The second is at best an temporary, ad hoc partial solution to the problem. If DName works it will be implemented. If it doesn't work, it will be made to work!

Last edited by drbiohealth; 20th March 2006 at 08:58 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 20th March 2006, 09:02 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbiohealth
Though this has been talked about before at least n times, there still seems to be no clear sight in view yet. Oflate, there have been depressing noises at other forums about IDN.COM per say. To get hopefully a better perspective on the state-of-the-art, let me throw a these two critical questions to the folks here to comment on.

1. If IDN.IDN is DNAMEd to IDN.COM, can we say, "Peace on Earth" to our IDN.COMs?

2. If IDN.IDN is implemented separately at the root, can we say that all our IDN.COMs are doomed?

Raj

I've in fact considered scenario 2 when i first started looking into idns.

For languages in which .com is very strong, like chinese, korean and arabic, this scenario will not significantly affect idn.com. In fact, it has already happened to chinese. I've already registered some .gongsi not because i feel that .gongsi or .co will be doing much better than .com, but for the fact that they are good names, their .com counterpart have been taken a long time ago.

But for languages like Russian, if the Russian form of .ru appears (the one that looks like 'Py'), the .com will become seriously undermined, although not "doomed".

As such the impact varies from language to langauge.

Last edited by touchring; 20th March 2006 at 09:15 AM..
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Old 20th March 2006, 09:07 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbiohealth
Dave, is this based on actual ground realities or conjecture? How are you so sure about this?
The second solution is only being discussed in regard to ccTLD where there is one on one mapping. With gTLDs where multi-channel mapping is required, this is not even being seriously discussed.

Each IDN Alias that is put directly into the root will require US Government approval. What is being discussed here is CN, JP, RU and a few others. For the Arab World and the Indian Subcontinent, it doesn't even begin to make sense. It works well for countries with one language that isn't spoken much outside sovereign borders, otherwise it is a nonsense.
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Old 20th March 2006, 09:08 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

I think I need to clarify this: in point 2 I guess IDN.COM will be a different domain name compared to its IDN.IDN counterpart. It appears you are assuming them to be the same (they are the same in point #1)!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
I've in fact considered scenario 2 when i first started looking into idns.

For languages in which .com is very strong, like chinese, korean and arabic, this scenario will not significantly affect idn.com. In fact, it has already happened to chinese.

But for languages like Russian, if the Russian form of .ru appears, the .com will become seriously undermined, although not "doomed".
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Old 20th March 2006, 09:11 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbiohealth
I think I need to clarify this: in point 2 I guess IDN.COM will be a different domain name compared to its IDN.IDN counterpart. It appears you are assuming them to be the same (they are the same in point #1)!!!
I think you can assume that they will be twinned somewhere along the line so that they always resolve to the same place. This effectively means a new ccTLD but no new registry.
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Old 20th March 2006, 09:12 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

If this is the case Dave, then I think we all should be safe. I was not aware of this that the second solution was meant "exclusively" for the ccTLDs and not gTLDs. Thanks for the info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
The second solution is only being discussed in regard to ccTLD where there is one on one mapping. With gTLDs where multi-channel mapping is required, this is not even being seriously discussed.
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Old 20th March 2006, 09:18 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbiohealth
I think I need to clarify this: in point 2 I guess IDN.COM will be a different domain name compared to its IDN.IDN counterpart. It appears you are assuming them to be the same (they are the same in point #1)!!!
No, it has already happened to chinese, china had idn.gongsi, or idn.idn since 2 years ago, and they even idnized their .cn with .zhongguo.

However, that being said, almost 80% of top chinese websites are .com, so they can't just throw .com away, see the point?

And ever wondered why did they in the first place use .com? Same reason as why people spend so much at mcdonalds - a meal there buys 2 or 3 local food meals.

Those underlying "reasons" still remain even with the introduction of .gongsi and .zhongguo.

Last edited by touchring; 20th March 2006 at 09:22 AM..
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Old 20th March 2006, 09:24 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
No, it has already happened to chinese, china had idn.gongsi, or idn.idn since 2 years ago, and they even idnized their .cn with .zhongguo.

However, that being said, almost 80% of top chinese websites are .com, so they can't just throw .com away, see the point? And why did they in the first place use .com? Those underlying "reasons" still remain even with the introduction of .gongsi and .zhongguo.
Yes, the Chinese top level IDN ccTLD is already inextricably linked with it ASCII counterpart. I cannot see why this would not be the case with any of the other ccTLDs. It will almost certainly be part of the conditions for authorising the names and the link will almost certainly be made at the Root, thereby giving no scope to open duplicate registeries.
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Old 20th March 2006, 09:25 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Yes, the Chinese top level IDN ccTLD is already inextricably linked with it ASCII counterpart. I cannot see why this would not be the case with any of the other ccTLDs. It will almost certainly be part of the conditions for authorising the names and the link will almost certainly be made at the Root, thereby giving no scope to open duplicate registeries.
If that's really the case, .Py will be a very strong idn.
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Old 20th March 2006, 09:29 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
If that's really the case, .Py will be a very strong idn.
Sorry, lost you there, I take it Py is a ccTLD?
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Old 20th March 2006, 09:37 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

OK, that's fine. This is not the bone of contention. ccTLDs will never ever interfere with gTLD .com.

My main confusion has been about the .com gTLD and not others?

Do you have any ".com equivalent IDN" implemented at the gTLD level in China? I suppose not! Please correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
No, it has already happened to chinese, china had idn.gongsi, or idn.idn since 2 years ago, and they even idnized their .cn with .zhongguo.
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Old 20th March 2006, 09:40 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbiohealth
OK, that's fine. This is not the bone of contention. ccTLDs will never ever interfere with gTLD .com.

My main confusion has been about the .com gTLD and not others?

Do you have any ".com equivalent IDN" implemented at the gTLD level in China? I suppose not! Please correct me if I am wrong.
There already one, although not exactly .com, it's .company.

.公司 or .gongsi.

Because it's .company, it works well only with names that can sound nicely with "company" after it. For example, possibility.company will make no sense. otoh, insurance.company will be a terrific name.

Last edited by touchring; 20th March 2006 at 09:46 AM..
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Old 20th March 2006, 09:44 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbiohealth
OK, that's fine. This is not the bone of contention. ccTLDs will never ever interfere with gTLD .com.

My main confusion has been about the .com gTLD and not others?

Do you have any ".com equivalent IDN" implemented at the gTLD level in China? I suppose not! Please correct me if I am wrong.
There is huge confusion. Gongsi has been implemented at a pseudo TLD, but it actually maps to a second level ccTLD. This mapping seems to be done at ISP and is a bit ad hoc. If you have the right Plug In and ISP you don't need to type in the dot CN. This doesn't make it a TLD, but there is confusion as Veriisign have expressed an interest in using the same letters for Dot Com and are a rather annoyed with the Chinese as they feel they are stepping on their toes.

The truth is it doesn't sound the same, and it doesn't mean the same thing, and it certainly won't replace Dot Com, which will almost certainly be Aliased to something else with Hopefully a bit more of a ring to it!
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Old 20th March 2006, 10:05 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Sorry, lost you there, I take it Py is a ccTLD?
Yes, r is P in russian, and u is y. I hope i'm correct. I see Py everywhere so i assume.

Last edited by touchring; 20th March 2006 at 10:10 AM..
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Old 20th March 2006, 10:42 AM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

This stuff is indeed confusing .. .

One critical thing that needs to be monitored is how ICANN implements .com gTLD in IDN. Though, from Dave's earlier post it seems there will only be one solution to it and that is, DNAME .. which essentially means that this is the real IDN goldrush we currently are living in


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
There is huge confusion. Gongsi has been implemented at a pseudo TLD, but it actually maps to a second level ccTLD. This mapping seems to be done at ISP and is a bit ad hoc. If you have the right Plug In and ISP you don't need to type in the dot CN. This doesn't make it a TLD, but there is confusion as Veriisign have expressed an interest in using the same letters for Dot Com and are a rather annoyed with the Chinese as they feel they are stepping on their toes.

The truth is it doesn't sound the same, and it doesn't mean the same thing, and it certainly won't replace Dot Com, which will almost certainly be Aliased to something else with Hopefully a bit more of a ring to it!

Last edited by drbiohealth; 20th March 2006 at 10:46 AM..
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Old 20th March 2006, 01:28 PM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
Yes, r is P in russian, and u is y. I hope i'm correct. I see Py everywhere so i assume.
I don't agree. Russian .ru will probably not be mapped to ру. The reason is very simple - Paraguay has latin .py, which looks exactly the same as Russian ру (ru). The Russians were talking about doing .рф (short for Russian Federation). If this is the case, .com (.ком) will be the king in russia, since any new extention will take a long time to get used to.
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Old 20th March 2006, 01:55 PM
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Re: Chaos about IDN implementation...

Everyone knows the .ru extention as ".ру” in Russia already. Having РФ would make .ru worthless for a lot of people for emotional reasons as well. There's just to attachment to the Ф part. In fact, the abreviation РФ itself is a source of annoyance for some.

If IDN.IND were implemented, millions of people would type .ру automatically. If it didn't work, they would be very surprised.

КОМ, besides an standing in as an abreviation for the foreign word commerical, is also a native word which means "rolled up ball of stuff" and works nicely as a metaphor for a website.

Last edited by blastfromthepast; 20th March 2006 at 02:01 PM..
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