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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 20th March 2006, 04:13 PM
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Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

I'm starting to see a new sales trick in which a japanese or chinese domain is sold as a chinese domain and vice versa. Or a traditional chinese domain is being sold as a simplified chinese domain.

The way this trick is done is very subtle - the seller would NOT indicate specifically the language of the domain name in the sales thread explicitly, placing only Google scores in various languages, which serves to confuse the buyer, especially one that can't read chinese characters or Kanji.

Sometimes, TW OVT or HK OVT scores are referred to as Chinese OVT, creating the false impression that the domain is a simplified Chinese word that is used in China.


Take NOTE:

1. People in China DO NOT and also CANNOT input traditional chinese characters easily using normal input methods as they do for simplified characters.

2. Traditional and Simplified Chinese are mutually exclusive. If you own an exclusively traditional chinese domain, you do not have rights over the simplified chinese version unless you register it, which in most cases is not possible. To complicate matters, in some cases, there are separate owners for simplified and traditional chinese versions, so both versions are taken.

3. What applies between simplified and traditional chinese also applies for japanese kanji.


Buyers should take necessary precautions.

Last edited by touchring; 20th March 2006 at 04:20 PM..
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Old 20th March 2006, 04:19 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
I'm starting to see a new sales trick in which a japanese or chinese domain is sold as a chinese domain and vice versa. Or a traditional chinese domain is being sold as a simplified chinese domain.

The way this trick is done is very subtle - the seller would not indicate specifically the language of the domain name in the sales thread, placing only Google scores in various languages, which serves to confuse the buyer, especially one that can't read chinese characters or Kanji.

Sometimes, TW OVT or HK OVT scores are referred to as Chinese OVT, creating the impression that the domain is a simplified Chinese that is used in China.


Take NOTE:

1. People in China DO NOT and also CANNOT input traditional chinese characters easily using normal input methods as they do for simplified characters.

2. Traditional and Simplified Chinese are mutually exclusive languages. If you own a traditional chinese domain, you do not have rights over the simplified chinese version unless you register it, which in most cases is not possible. In some cases, there are separate owners for simplified and traditional chinese versions, so both versions are taken.


Buyers should take necessary precautions.

Yes, I have already warned about this after he had won an auction. Unfortunately, I think he had already paid up.

There is some real underhand work going on DNF, and much more clarity about standards of transactions is definitely required.
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Old 20th March 2006, 04:23 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Yes, I have already warned about this after he had won an auction. Unfortunately, I think he had already paid up.

There is some real underhand work going on DNF, and much more clarity about standards of transactions is definitely required.

I do not know if we are talking about the same case, but as i mentioned, the trick is very subtle, so subtle that i do not know if it's intentional or just an oversight - so it's up to buyers to take own precaution. Today, i've seen another such sale post, and that is the last straw and i have to warn you guys.

Last edited by touchring; 20th March 2006 at 04:29 PM..
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Old 20th March 2006, 04:30 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
I do not know if we are talking about the same case, but as i mentioned, the trick is very subtle, so subtle that i do not know if it's intentional or just an oversight - so it's up to buyers to take own precaution. Today, i've seen another such sale post, and that is the last straw and i have to warn you guys.
Well then at least tell us what thread it is, so that we can see how it's being done.
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Old 20th March 2006, 04:33 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

I thought ppl originally were saying you'd get both the simplified and traditional variants.
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Old 20th March 2006, 04:36 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
I thought ppl originally were saying you'd get both the simplified and traditional variants.
No one knows for sure, and a lot of the domains right now on sale and sold on DNF have their variant "registered" by another person. There's a loophole, some variants are not blocked.
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Old 20th March 2006, 04:41 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
No one knows for sure, and a lot of the domains right now on sale and sold on DNF have their variant "registered" by another person. There's a loophole, some variants are not blocked.

Yes, this suggest to me that we need some kind of standardised reference material that at least gives the buyer reasonable access to the information they need even if they don't choose to pursue these issues. More input required on my consultation thread:

http://www.idnforums.com/forums/1631...ce-at-dnf.html
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Old 20th March 2006, 04:49 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Yes, this suggest to me that we need some kind of standardised reference material
It is all out there already! The unihan database on unicode.org itself provides variant information. The dictionaries do too.

Clueless newbie? Read up on "chinese characters" on wiki. It is a pretty simple task to research and learn what you are investing in.

Last edited by blastfromthepast; 20th March 2006 at 04:52 PM..
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Old 20th March 2006, 04:55 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Isn't it kinda silly blocking someone from regging a domain usable in China because someone's already registered the variant usable in Japan or Taiwan?
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Old 20th March 2006, 05:02 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbert
Isn't it kinda silly blocking someone from regging a domain usable in China because someone's already registered the variant usable in Japan or Taiwan?
This was done after wide spread consultation in the Far East and was specificially requested by the organisations responsible for development in that area. I don't really think it is for us to say whether it is appropriate or not.
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Old 20th March 2006, 05:09 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
This was done after wide spread consultation in the Far East and was specificially requested by the organisations responsible for development in that area. I don't really think it is for us to say whether it is appropriate or not.
They are trying to play it safe.
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Old 20th March 2006, 05:10 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
I'm starting to see a new sales trick in which a japanese or chinese domain is sold as a chinese domain and vice versa. Or a traditional chinese domain is being sold as a simplified chinese domain.

The way this trick is done is very subtle - the seller would NOT indicate specifically the language of the domain name in the sales thread explicitly, placing only Google scores in various languages, which serves to confuse the buyer, especially one that can't read chinese characters or Kanji.

Sometimes, TW OVT or HK OVT scores are referred to as Chinese OVT, creating the false impression that the domain is a simplified Chinese word that is used in China.


Take NOTE:

1. People in China DO NOT and also CANNOT input traditional chinese characters easily using normal input methods as they do for simplified characters.

2. Traditional and Simplified Chinese are mutually exclusive. If you own an exclusively traditional chinese domain, you do not have rights over the simplified chinese version unless you register it, which in most cases is not possible. To complicate matters, in some cases, there are separate owners for simplified and traditional chinese versions, so both versions are taken.

3. What applies between simplified and traditional chinese also applies for japanese kanji.


Buyers should take necessary precautions.
This is a false alarm! All Touchring stated in this post are wrong due to his lack of understanding of how Verisign designed for IDNs.
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Old 20th March 2006, 05:20 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
This is a false alarm! All Touchring stated in this post are wrong due to his lack of understanding of how Verisign designed for IDNs.
Please append your disagreements beside each point (preferably point by point), it will be clearer to everyone.
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Old 20th March 2006, 05:53 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
I'm starting to see a new sales trick in which a japanese or chinese domain is sold as a chinese domain and vice versa. Or a traditional chinese domain is being sold as a simplified chinese domain..
Example: 一.com

This domain can be sold as a Japanese domain or a Chinese domain. If you registered it as Japanese, I believe you can change the language tag to Chinese by transfering it to another Registrar and set the language tag to Chinese.
Of course, "language" of the domain for sale should be included in the sales post.


Quote:
Sometimes, TW OVT or HK OVT scores are referred to as Chinese OVT, creating the false impression that the domain is a simplified Chinese word that is used in China...
If the domain for sale is listed as a Traditional Chinese, no false impression can be created.


Quote:
Take NOTE:

1. People in China DO NOT and also CANNOT input traditional chinese characters easily using normal input methods as they do for simplified characters.
If they don't need to input Traditional Chinese, they don't set that option. If they do need, the input is "extremely" easy.

Quote:
2. Traditional and Simplified Chinese are mutually exclusive. If you own an exclusively traditional chinese domain, you do not have rights over the simplified chinese version unless you register it, which in most cases is not possible. .
Wrong. If you are lucky, when you own a Traditional Chinese, Verisign reserves the Simplified Chinese version for you, you can reg the simplified version after IDN leave the final stage of TESTBED. It is possible.


Quote:
To complicate matters, in some cases, there are separate owners for simplified and traditional chinese versions, so both versions are taken.
If you are not that lucky, you own the Trad. Chinese and somebody else owns the Simp. version, then you can try to buy the other version when you want it. That's the way Verisign wanted, there's nothing wrong for the seller to sell any version of the domain.

Please remember that people in Taiwan, Hong Kong and most overseas Chinese want Traditional Chinese domains, there is a market for Traditional Chinese domains.

So, there is no new sales trick. We just have to remind the seller to state clearly the "language" of the domain for sale.
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Last edited by Giant; 20th March 2006 at 06:52 PM..
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Old 20th March 2006, 06:30 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
Example: 一.com

This domain can be sold as a Japanese domain or a Chinese domain. If you registered it as Japanese, I believe you can change the language tab to Chinese by transfering it to another Registrar and set the language tab to Chinese.
Of course, "language" of the domain for sale should be included in the sales post.
Errrm. The language tag is a registry feature that is NOT exported to teh name servers.

If I own 一.com I can serve up Chinese content to those clients comoing from TW and Japanese content for those in Japan.

And Swahili as well, if I want.

You don't HAVE to have the tag in Japanese to serve content to Japanese surfers.
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Old 20th March 2006, 07:00 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbert
Errrm. The language tag is a registry feature that is NOT exported to teh name servers.

If I own 一.com I can serve up Chinese content to those clients comoing from TW and Japanese content for those in Japan.

And Swahili as well, if I want.

You don't HAVE to have the tag in Japanese to serve content to Japanese surfers.
I agree, the language tag is a registry feature. But I did try to change the language when I transfered some of my domains. Whether I changed the tag successfully or not, I don't know, that's why I said "I believe".

How the language tag will be used, it's still not clear yet.

What I tried to say is don't blame the seller if he tries to sell 一.com as a Chinese domain.
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Old 20th March 2006, 07:05 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
I agree, the language tag is a registry feature. But I did try to change the language when I transfered some of my domains. Whether I changed the tag successfully or not, I don't know, that's why I said "I believe".

How the language tag will be used, it's still not clear yet.

What I tried to say is don't blame the seller if he tries to sell 一.com as a Chinese domain.
I believe that the Language tags themselves are a complete red-herring is this is a mess that Verisign has got to sort out.

What is clearly important is that buyers in English Speaking Forums are not totally mislead by a bunch of Charaltans and there are plenty out there. Some have even infiltrated here and I think we are starting to get a feel of who we are dealing with.

The important thing is to have protect our markets by securing the market places.
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Old 20th March 2006, 07:40 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
I believe that the Language tags themselves are a complete red-herring is this is a mess that Verisign has got to sort out.

What is clearly important is that buyers in English Speaking Forums are not totally mislead by a bunch of Charaltans and there are plenty out there. Some have even infiltrated here and I think we are starting to get a feel of who we are dealing with.

The important thing is to have protect our markets by securing the market places.
I think Verisign is gonna be mighty impressed as they see that there is a greater Afrikaans language domain popularity than hey had thought.
::kidding::
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Old 21st March 2006, 12:54 PM
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Re: Buyers beware of new sales trick on DNF

Whilst, I shared these concerns, to the extent of tipping off one of the bidders in this Auction to the fact that he was not getting what he thought he was getting, it would appear that is problem has arisen more from misunderstanding on both sides, than any deliberate attempt to defraud. What you see depends to a large extent on your viewing point. In this case a Taiwanese Trader was selling to an American Buyer. The latter thought that he getting Simplified Chinese, but frankly didn't have the language skills or the IDN savvy to know exactly where he was going. The seller for his part was selling good domains at not unreasonable prices.

After the confusion was put into the open both parties it would appear have been a pains to reach a satisfactory conclusion to the problems that have arisen, and the buyer now feels embarassed about the fuss that has been caused. The Seller was indeed correct about the Value of Traditional Chinese domains in his area of the world, and as buyer and seller knew each other, they didnt feel anything was being done in an underhanded manner.

In my view, the whole problem has arisen because of a lack of strong ground rules for structuring and regulating sales. This is a problem for which we all share a joint responsibility to resolve. I had previous proposed a system of whereby the Nomenclenture, Designation or Name is given to a type of sale which automatically invokes a set of rules and standards to be applied to the sale. This system should give a clear explanation of the type of information that is required for each type of sale, which would hopefully eliminated much of the confusion that currently exists.

I did ask for feedback on these proposals, but only received one or two contributions. If we are not proactive before the fact, then it is frankly a little hypocritical to condemn others actions after the fact.

Traditional Chinese is not worthless, and clearly those that use it as their main means of communication will place great value on names in the script. At the same time those that are targeting the PRC as market need to be aware of the limitations on this script as a means of accessing their chosen market. All those trading in Far East Languages need some understanding as to the similarities and differences of the scripts used in the various languages.

Best Regards
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
I'm starting to see a new sales trick in which a japanese or chinese domain is sold as a chinese domain and vice versa. Or a traditional chinese domain is being sold as a simplified chinese domain.

The way this trick is done is very subtle - the seller would NOT indicate specifically the language of the domain name in the sales thread explicitly, placing only Google scores in various languages, which serves to confuse the buyer, especially one that can't read chinese characters or Kanji.

Sometimes, TW OVT or HK OVT scores are referred to as Chinese OVT, creating the false impression that the domain is a simplified Chinese word that is used in China.


Take NOTE:

1. People in China DO NOT and also CANNOT input traditional chinese characters easily using normal input methods as they do for simplified characters.

2. Traditional and Simplified Chinese are mutually exclusive. If you own an exclusively traditional chinese domain, you do not have rights over the simplified chinese version unless you register it, which in most cases is not possible. To complicate matters, in some cases, there are separate owners for simplified and traditional chinese versions, so both versions are taken.

3. What applies between simplified and traditional chinese also applies for japanese kanji.


Buyers should take necessary precautions.
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 21st March 2006 at 01:54 PM..
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