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Old 4th April 2006, 06:30 PM
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IE 7 layout becomes fixed

Quote:
Internet Explorer 7 has been given the green light as far as rendering behaviour is concerned and the latest version unveiled at the MIX06 conference will remain the standard, aside from bug fixes and security updates, until launch.

Markus Mielke on the IE7 development team wrote in the team blog that 'we don't plan to add more layout features or drastically change layout behaviour'.

This means that certain features won't make it into the first release of IE7: CSS display tables and generated content are mentioned.

CSS expert Eric Meyer wrote in response that this is the point from which web developers will be expected to test and tweak websites to get them working with the new version of IE: 'We have a calm period of at least three months in which to find out how things stand before IE7 goes final.'
IE7 is due to go to a final release in the second half of the year, following a preliminary Vista Beta2 release for the browser.

Mielke added that the IE is working on 'a public bug database where you can submit your issues, track their progress and see when we internally fix an issue' - a feature not unlike Mozilla's Bugzilla, used to channel bugs found in its products.

Meyer claims that despite the clear indications that Microsoft has been paying close attention to the success of Firefox for IE7, this should not be viewed negatively. 'The IE team has looked over what happened while they were in hibernation and is emulating the best of it. That's not lame, that's smart. And it should have other browser makers a little bit worried. A lot of their success has been due to Microsoft's complacency. They're going to have to be a lot sharper and more nimble now that the 800 pound gorilla is actually awake and paying attention to its surroundings.'
Tell me it doesn't say this.
Quote:
'We have a calm period of at least three months in which to find out how things stand before IE7 goes final.'
3 months? Are you kidding me? This really is a bunch of crap.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/85812/ie...mes-fixed.html
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Old 4th April 2006, 06:34 PM
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Re: IE 7 layout becomes fixed

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Originally Posted by sarcle
Tell me it doesn't say this.

3 months? Are you kidding me? This really is a bunch of crap.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/85812/ie...mes-fixed.html

Well it looks like Microsoft complacency has been the main reason for progress, so they are going to demonstrate a lot more of it! Logically, that should give even more progress, no?
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Old 4th April 2006, 06:40 PM
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Re: IE 7 layout becomes fixed

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Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Well it looks like Microsoft complacency has been the main reason for progress, so they are going to demonstrate a lot more of it! Logically, that should give even more progress, no?
No way in hell. I'm so pissed right now I could spit venom. I've used the browser for over two months and it's worked fine. A few quirks but nothing from preventing it to be unusable by the public. Listening to Bill's talk about unaccepable delays surrounding IE7 and hearing this is BULLSHIT!
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Old 4th April 2006, 08:37 PM
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Re: IE 7 layout becomes fixed

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcle
No way in hell. I'm so pissed right now I could spit venom. I've used the browser for over two months and it's worked fine. A few quirks but nothing from preventing it to be unusable by the public. Listening to Bill's talk about unaccepable delays surrounding IE7 and hearing this is BULLSHIT!
Face it IE7 has a ton of feature sets and IDN is just one of them - it isn't all worked out yet. We know this already, as sad as it is, IDN is not the main point of IE7's release - though I think it is the most paradigm shifting, game altering thing about it, clearly MSFT doesn't seem to recognize it as such.

Guys, I'm not just making up the release date I mentioned in a previous thread. Release to web dates are determined far in advance and they don't move in any direction but back. Expect IE7 in the late summer/early fall and plan accordingly.

Last edited by rhys; 4th April 2006 at 08:40 PM..
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Old 4th April 2006, 09:18 PM
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Re: IE 7 layout becomes fixed

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhys
Face it IE7 has a ton of feature sets and IDN is just one of them - it isn't all worked out yet. We know this already, as sad as it is, IDN is not the main point of IE7's release - though I think it is the most paradigm shifting, game altering thing about it, clearly MSFT doesn't seem to recognize it as such.

Guys, I'm not just making up the release date I mentioned in a previous thread. Release to web dates are determined far in advance and they don't move in any direction but back. Expect IE7 in the late summer/early fall and plan accordingly.
Well your September date is also in total contradiction to what this guy is saying.
Three month from late March by my calculations is late June. If you are correct then he is still deliberately lying to us, as he knows that even this three months delay is not even a remote possibly.

Conclusion. Microsoft credibility at absolute zero. Don't buy their software and for Christ's sake don't buy their stock!
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Old 4th April 2006, 11:13 PM
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Re: IE 7 layout becomes fixed

The big win will be in the corporate market. Once significant numbers of organizations switch to IE7, the effective uptake will be huge since even people running older systems at home will have access to IE7 at their place of business.

But companies aren't going to rush to adopt anything that's less than 99.9% rock solid (you never get 100%). From experience, it will in any case take larger and more conservative companies months-to-years to upgrade as they'll want to do extensive testing first.

If an extra 3 or even 6 months delay gives an extra 1% stability it will still be worth it in the longer term. On the other hand, if Microsoft releases something laden with bugs, many organizations may decide NEVER to upgrade (IE6 works just fine right now and it's pretty stable after all the service packs and patches).

Microsoft has one chance, and only one chance, to get it right, especially after having taken so long to get the next version out. Better they take their time than blow it completely!
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Old 5th April 2006, 02:24 AM
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Re: IE 7 layout becomes fixed

Yes, i rather they release the "post-beta" version internally among partners or even their company first at least for 6 months to sort out all the issues than use the entire world as final testing ground.

Last edited by touchring; 5th April 2006 at 02:45 AM..
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Old 5th April 2006, 02:36 AM
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Re: IE 7 layout becomes fixed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Well your September date is also in total contradiction to what this guy is saying.
Three month from late March by my calculations is late June. If you are correct then he is still deliberately lying to us, as he knows that even this three months delay is not even a remote possibly.

Conclusion. Microsoft credibility at absolute zero. Don't buy their software and for Christ's sake don't buy their stock!
He did, I believe, specify "at least 3 months" not "exactly 3 months" so April +3 months puts us into a July release + an extra month with his caveat of "at least" and that puts you at August - ta da!
And I will point out that it isn't really a "delay" if their roadmap never called for them to release it this spring that was just well intentioned wishful thinking, a disappointment for those waiting for it but it isn't a delay.

And hey, Dave, recommending stocks? I'm surprised you are investing in any other asset class besides IDNs. What's up, hedging your bets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin
The big win will be in the corporate market. Once significant numbers of organizations switch to IE7, the effective uptake will be huge since even people running older systems at home will have access to IE7 at their place of business.

But companies aren't going to rush to adopt anything that's less than 99.9% rock solid (you never get 100%). From experience, it will in any case take larger and more conservative companies months-to-years to upgrade as they'll want to do extensive testing first.

If an extra 3 or even 6 months delay gives an extra 1% stability it will still be worth it in the longer term. On the other hand, if Microsoft releases something laden with bugs, many organizations may decide NEVER to upgrade (IE6 works just fine right now and it's pretty stable after all the service packs and patches).

Microsoft has one chance, and only one chance, to get it right, especially after having taken so long to get the next version out. Better they take their time than blow it completely!
Agreed. This is supremely rational thinking.

Hey we don't control the wind, we just control our own sail - let's make the most of our time. It will come soon enough.

Last edited by rhys; 5th April 2006 at 04:31 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 23rd April 2006, 04:46 PM
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Re: IE 7 layout becomes fixed

Yes, unfortunately I am beginning to think that much of the scepticsim is justified.

I think that I incorrectly concluded that because Microsoft had claimed to be working on Longhorn for about 3 years that the integral browser would already be at an advanced stage. My incorrect assumption has clearly been that all they need to do was separate the browser routines from the new operating system and we would be in business.

I think recent events suggest that at the point Bill announced the launch of IE 7.0 bugger all work had been done on any new browser either intergrated or otherwise. The further delays with Vista also suggests to me that we have also been totally misled on how much development work had actually been done on the New Operating System.

It may well be that the answer is the assessment of barriers to entry in this market. It may well be that Microsoft correctly concluded that in order to prevent new entrants producing competing operating systems, they had two choices. The first is to launch on a programme of continually updating the operating system. The second would be to pretend to be doing just that!
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 23rd April 2006 at 05:12 PM..
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Old 23rd April 2006, 04:53 PM
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Re: IE 7 layout becomes fixed

I read somewhere that they threw away the first version of longhorn after working on it for 3 years, when they decided it was easier to redo from scratch again than to debug.
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Old 23rd April 2006, 04:58 PM
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Re: IE 7 layout becomes fixed

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
I read somewhere that they threw away the first version of longhorn after working on it for 3 years, when they decided it was easier to redo from scratch again than to debug.
That cracks me up. The fellow who wrote that, definitely does not know very much about writing operating systems. He must think its similar to programming a game of pong by yourself on your appleIIe.
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Old 23rd April 2006, 05:15 PM
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Re: IE 7 layout becomes fixed

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhys
That cracks me up. The fellow who wrote that, definitely does not know very much about writing operating systems. He must think its similar to programming a game of pong by yourself on your appleIIe.
Well I am not so sure it is completely inaccurate. I think it is likely that it is being completely debundled and several core components are being completely rewritten.

As you correctly state an Operating System is a lot more complexed than say a browser, so if it is going to take them six months to Beta Test and refine the browser, I would not be anticipating a full release of Vista anytime soon! I very much doubt that the first Beta will be launched much before the year end and I won't be going anywhere near it for at least 12 months after that, full release or otherwise.
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 23rd April 2006 at 05:20 PM..
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Old 23rd April 2006, 06:11 PM
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Re: IE 7 layout becomes fixed

Another reason might be that Vista uses so much processor power, they are waiting for people to upgrade their computers first. Poor me still using P3 500Mhz.
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