IDN Forums - Internationalized Domain Names  
Home | Advertise on idnforums | Premium Membership

Go Back   IDN Forums - Internationalized Domain Names > IDN Discussions > General Discussion

General Discussion Feel free to talk about anything and everything in this board.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 25th March 2009, 09:55 PM
Rubber Duck's Avatar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Czech Republic (For those of you from USA = Chechnya)
Posts: 15,929
iTrader: (59)
Rep Power: 4536
Rubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura about
Home and Dry!

http://www.circleid.com/posts/200903...level_domains/

Currently, all existing gTLDs allow for the registration of non-native character sets to the left of the dot (숭문.net or 中国首饰.com), but with the introduction of IDN TLDs, registrations containing the translation of .com or .net will also be possible (태영산업.회사 or海尔.康姆).

Clearly, this has the potential to exponentially increase the size of corporate domain portfolios and the potential for abuse, especially as world markets expand in size and in importance. Fortunately, VeriSign has recently socialized an idea that would protect the rights of existing .com and .net domain owners by providing them exclusive rights to register existing domains across all newly introduced .com and .net IDN TLDs.

Although a formal commitment has not yet been made by VeriSign to support this approach, this may now be the time to begin evaluating the registration of brands in .com and .net using native character sets to support important markets. In particular, companies should consider registering translations, transliterations, and transcriptions of their famous marks now to support current and planned global marketing efforts. By doing so, owners of these domains could potentially have exclusive rights to register in matching .com and .net IDN TLDs, when they become available.

We are hopeful that VeriSign will adopt this policy when they submit their applications for the internationalized versions of .com and .net, and that others who also intend to offer internationalized TLDs and ccTLDs will follow suit as well.
__________________
All offers to sell are void.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 25th March 2009, 10:34 PM
mulligan's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,254
iTrader: (78)
Rep Power: 2055
mulligan will become famous soon enoughmulligan will become famous soon enoughmulligan will become famous soon enoughmulligan will become famous soon enoughmulligan will become famous soon enoughmulligan will become famous soon enoughmulligan will become famous soon enoughmulligan will become famous soon enough
Re: Home and Dry!

So VeriSign want us to pay for all those extra registrations if the policy is adopted?
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 25th March 2009, 10:42 PM
Rubber Duck's Avatar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Czech Republic (For those of you from USA = Chechnya)
Posts: 15,929
iTrader: (59)
Rep Power: 4536
Rubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura about
Re: Home and Dry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mulligan View Post
So VeriSign want us to pay for all those extra registrations if the policy is adopted?
That part is not clear but if you have exclusive rights you don't need to and besides only the version in the same language is of any interest. So at most two, perhaps three if the different languages have have the same representations, say Arabic and Farsi. You can wait until you need multiple versions. You maintain your rights by just renewing the ASCII version.

I still believe they will go with DNAMES. This is highly consistent with their previous DNAME proposals. DNAMES also does not allow them to charge multiple registrations, as there is only one registration and a lot of smoke and mirrors.

Anyway, make of it what you will. I have better things to do than spend all week arguing the toss over this, with a group that largely cannot be bothered to get of their arses and do some research to find out what is possible and what is not.
__________________
All offers to sell are void.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 25th March 2009, 11:49 PM
555 555 is offline
ком.ком コム.コム
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,141
iTrader: (33)
Rep Power: 1708
555 has disabled reputation
Re: Home and Dry!

Interesting timing. Several here understood this is the only way to go long ago but it is good to read that coming from a credible source like MarkMonitor and published on CircleID.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 12:13 AM
Ryu's Avatar
Ryu Ryu is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,158
iTrader: (14)
Rep Power: 1005
Ryu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished road
Re: Home and Dry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck View Post
Fortunately, VeriSign has recently socialized an idea that would protect the rights of existing .com and .net domain owners by providing them exclusive rights to register existing domains across all newly introduced .com and .net IDN TLDs.

Although a formal commitment has not yet been made by VeriSign to support this approach, this may now be the time to begin evaluating the registration of brands in .com and .net using native character sets to support important markets. In particular, companies should consider registering translations, transliterations, and transcriptions of their famous marks now to support current and planned global marketing efforts. By doing so, owners of these domains could potentially have exclusive rights to register in matching .com and .net IDN TLDs, when they become available.
Whilst such an arrangement would benefitial to many of us, including me, many countries like China would disagree, arguing it's totally unfair to give VeriSign such exclusive rights over IDN TLDs.

I consider it to be very unfair as well. Giving Verisign rights to control translation of .com and .net is out of question as that would give Verisign additional right over some important generic gtlds. Transliteration may be acceptable though if it can be sufficiently demonstrated that such transliteration means nothing but .com or .net.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 12:37 AM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,880
iTrader: (60)
Rep Power: 2230
bwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enough
Re: Home and Dry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
Whilst such an arrangement would benefitial to many of us, including me, many countries like China would disagree, arguing it's totally unfair to give VeriSign such exclusive rights over IDN TLDs.

I consider it to be very unfair as well. Giving Verisign rights to control translation of .com and .net is out of question as that would give Verisign additional right over some important generic gtlds. Transliteration may be acceptable though if it can be sufficiently demonstrated that such transliteration means nothing but .com or .net.
Regarding .com and .net, giving rights to anyone but Verisign to have the transliteral or equivalent has the potential to cause widescale confusion and a huge mess of lawsuits that could ties things up for years from the existing idn.com and idn.net nameholders. The discussions and decisions have long been hashed out and the language in various ICANN documents have made it abundantly clear that there isn't going to be any "squatting" when it comes to idn.idn gtlds. This situation has been repeatedly addressed early on in papers and recommendation by the GNSO and GAC. Verisign back in 2005 laid out plans for aliasing idn (google: Verisign DNAME proposal for equivalent mapping). Along the same lines, JPRS will have the ability to alias .jp which they have been studying (google: JPRS report on DNAME), China has already aliased .cn within China and so on and so on.

Last edited by bwhhisc; 26th March 2009 at 12:46 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 01:00 AM
Ryu's Avatar
Ryu Ryu is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,158
iTrader: (14)
Rep Power: 1005
Ryu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished road
Re: Home and Dry!

I agree that no one should have any right over the transliteration (not translation) of .com and .net. But that doesn't mean Verisign should have them.

When it comes to IDNs, it should be a country or countries of which population speak relavant languages that should be given right to decide which organisation can be a registrar of any IDN tlds.

What I can tell you with fair amount of confidence is that countries like China won't keep silence if Verisign tries to claim their right over .公司 or .网. I believe such a move will be blocked.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 02:04 AM
phio's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Arctic Circle
Posts: 1,541
iTrader: (31)
Rep Power: 698
phio is an unknown quantity at this pointphio is an unknown quantity at this pointphio is an unknown quantity at this pointphio is an unknown quantity at this pointphio is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Home and Dry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
I agree that no one should have any right over the transliteration (not translation) of .com and .net. But that doesn't mean Verisign should have them.

When it comes to IDNs, it should be a country or countries of which population speak relavant languages that should be given right to decide which organisation can be a registrar of any IDN tlds.

What I can tell you with fair amount of confidence is that countries like China won't keep silence if Verisign tries to claim their right over .公司 or .网. I believe such a move will be blocked.
Well, it seems like .cn is gaining on both .com and .net by huge leaps. I read somewhere that .cn is number two in registration popularity. Also, there may already be a deal in the works with CNNIC and Verisign...we really don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

Anyways, if this news gets out to more channels, there may be a mad dash to get whatever is remaining. If it goes unnoticed for a while, it will give me more time to develop...or as they say in London...develope
__________________
.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 06:29 AM
Rubber Duck's Avatar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Czech Republic (For those of you from USA = Chechnya)
Posts: 15,929
iTrader: (59)
Rep Power: 4536
Rubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura about
Re: Home and Dry!

It would actually be illegal not to.

Dot Com is Trademark. Every legitimate translation of Dot Com is Trademark everywhere outside China and Japan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
Whilst such an arrangement would benefitial to many of us, including me, many countries like China would disagree, arguing it's totally unfair to give VeriSign such exclusive rights over IDN TLDs.

I consider it to be very unfair as well. Giving Verisign rights to control translation of .com and .net is out of question as that would give Verisign additional right over some important generic gtlds. Transliteration may be acceptable though if it can be sufficiently demonstrated that such transliteration means nothing but .com or .net.
__________________
All offers to sell are void.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 06:32 AM
Rubber Duck's Avatar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Czech Republic (For those of you from USA = Chechnya)
Posts: 15,929
iTrader: (59)
Rep Power: 4536
Rubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura about
Re: Home and Dry!

Again, you seem to be deliberately missing the point. Major IP specialists are now actively pushing IDN.com to their Corporate Costumers. How can it go unnoticed for a while?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phio View Post
Well, it seems like .cn is gaining on both .com and .net by huge leaps. I read somewhere that .cn is number two in registration popularity. Also, there may already be a deal in the works with CNNIC and Verisign...we really don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

Anyways, if this news gets out to more channels, there may be a mad dash to get whatever is remaining. If it goes unnoticed for a while, it will give me more time to develop...or as they say in London...develope
__________________
All offers to sell are void.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 07:04 AM
phio's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Arctic Circle
Posts: 1,541
iTrader: (31)
Rep Power: 698
phio is an unknown quantity at this pointphio is an unknown quantity at this pointphio is an unknown quantity at this pointphio is an unknown quantity at this pointphio is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Home and Dry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck View Post
Again, you seem to be deliberately missing the point. Major IP specialists are now actively pushing IDN.com to their Corporate Costumers. How can it go unnoticed for a while?
I think the IP specialists move a little slower in America.
They're probably thinking of how to get to Lake Havasu or Cabo in time for spring break.
__________________
.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 07:15 AM
Rubber Duck's Avatar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Czech Republic (For those of you from USA = Chechnya)
Posts: 15,929
iTrader: (59)
Rep Power: 4536
Rubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura about
Re: Home and Dry!

They are not bloody slow when it comes to trying to steal your names.

I am in conflict with one of the bastards at Nominet. If the complaint and response are ever published it will make very interesting reading whichever this goes!

What pisses me off it their attitude to domainers. Without domainers they would be out of a job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phio View Post
I think the IP specialists move a little slower in America.
They're probably thinking of how to get to Lake Havasu or Cabo in time for spring break.
__________________
All offers to sell are void.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 03:20 PM
idnowner's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 744
iTrader: (3)
Rep Power: 1251
idnowner will become famous soon enoughidnowner will become famous soon enoughidnowner will become famous soon enoughidnowner will become famous soon enoughidnowner will become famous soon enoughidnowner will become famous soon enoughidnowner will become famous soon enough
Re: Home and Dry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
When it comes to IDNs, it should be a country or countries of which population speak relavant languages that should be given right to decide which organisation can be a registrar of any IDN tlds.
As for ccTLDs, that is one issue (with their own political battles of control going on). I believe the testbed launched in November 2000, was just that - a "test bed," meaning preparations and laying the ground work for full IDNs, and that the intention and plans were to offer the IDN .com and .net equivalents on top of, or in place of the English .com and .net. It makes perfect sense when you think about it. After all, Yahoo will almost certainly have rights to Yahoo, in the respective language, for use as a search engine, under any ccTLD.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 03:36 PM
Rubber Duck's Avatar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Czech Republic (For those of you from USA = Chechnya)
Posts: 15,929
iTrader: (59)
Rep Power: 4536
Rubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura about
Re: Home and Dry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
I agree that no one should have any right over the transliteration (not translation) of .com and .net. But that doesn't mean Verisign should have them.

When it comes to IDNs, it should be a country or countries of which population speak relavant languages that should be given right to decide which organisation can be a registrar of any IDN tlds.

What I can tell you with fair amount of confidence is that countries like China won't keep silence if Verisign tries to claim their right over .公司 or .网. I believe such a move will be blocked.
Sorry, but this is totally contrary International Law.

To do what you suggest you would have to abolish WIPO and then tear up every international treaty relating to IP rights and start all over again. Some might think that is desirable, but I think we need to consider whether it is a very plausible outcome.

Further, you need to understand that Governments do not own languages. Most languages stray across borders like stray cats. Could the British really claim rights over every Trademark that is based on an English word, I think not. Indeed, we can't even mind our own bloody business with our own ccTLD without getting bloody Yanky Lawyers try to trample all over us. Reverse Hijacking seems to be the only US industry turning a profit these days!
__________________
All offers to sell are void.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 08:30 PM
sbe18's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,339
iTrader: (10)
Rep Power: 1669
sbe18 will become famous soon enoughsbe18 will become famous soon enoughsbe18 will become famous soon enoughsbe18 will become famous soon enoughsbe18 will become famous soon enoughsbe18 will become famous soon enoughsbe18 will become famous soon enoughsbe18 will become famous soon enough
Re: Home and Dry!

As usual, my opinion sides with RD / David on this...

The Verisign DNAMES / CNNIC deal is looming .
With China Mobile and China Unicom as registrars...3G mobile phones likely to be web server enabled in 2011+,
China IT specialists are planning for IPv6 and mobile devices and IDN's and 3G to be massive economic engines for China.

Verisign and CNNIC are tied together now.
Not unlike the US Treasury and China's finanace bureaus...

farsi/arabic and the urdu/hindi/arabic problems are way down the ladder for
CNNIC and Verisign and ICANN....

they are important.....but getting dot CN/dot zhong guo in the root is the fast track plain and simple...

Verisign will easily veto any IDN gtld transliteration/translation attempts...for dot com and dot net...

and RD is right...the ascii registration is the only one.

many years from now...Verisign will come out with a menu of services for
multi-language support and analytics....imho.

steve
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 09:47 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,880
iTrader: (60)
Rep Power: 2230
bwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enough
Re: Home and Dry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbe18 View Post
Verisign will easily veto any IDN gtld transliteration/translation attempts...for dot com and dot net...
I think you intend to mean "Verisign will easily veto any attempt by 'anyone else' attempting to alias their .com and .net brands."
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 26th March 2009, 09:48 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,880
iTrader: (60)
Rep Power: 2230
bwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enoughbwhhisc will become famous soon enough
Re: Home and Dry!

Looking back on related GAC/ GNSO report from a year ago....January 2008. Things are moving along, albeit slowly but still to the same tune.

http://www.gnso.icann.org/drafts/ccn...ds-31jan08.pdf

Last edited by bwhhisc; 26th March 2009 at 10:00 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 27th March 2009, 04:12 PM
Ryu's Avatar
Ryu Ryu is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,158
iTrader: (14)
Rep Power: 1005
Ryu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished road
Re: Home and Dry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck View Post
Dot Com is Trademark. Every legitimate translation of Dot Com is Trademark everywhere outside China and Japan.
Can you share with me where I can find such information? Does "everywhere" include countries like India, Thailand, Egypt and Saudi Arabia?

I wonder how on earth people could even decide what translation of Dot Com should be in many non latin languages.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 27th March 2009, 04:17 PM
Ryu's Avatar
Ryu Ryu is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,158
iTrader: (14)
Rep Power: 1005
Ryu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished road
Re: Home and Dry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by idnowner View Post
As for ccTLDs, that is one issue (with their own political battles of control going on). I believe the testbed launched in November 2000, was just that - a "test bed," meaning preparations and laying the ground work for full IDNs, and that the intention and plans were to offer the IDN .com and .net equivalents on top of, or in place of the English .com and .net. It makes perfect sense when you think about it. After all, Yahoo will almost certainly have rights to Yahoo, in the respective language, for use as a search engine, under any ccTLD.
I agree that it makes sense. But in the real world, we often see things that don't make much sense, especially when politics is involved.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 27th March 2009, 04:32 PM
Ryu's Avatar
Ryu Ryu is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,158
iTrader: (14)
Rep Power: 1005
Ryu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished roadRyu is on a distinguished road
Re: Home and Dry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck View Post
Sorry, but this is totally contrary International Law.

To do what you suggest you would have to abolish WIPO and then tear up every international treaty relating to IP rights and start all over again. Some might think that is desirable, but I think we need to consider whether it is a very plausible outcome.

Further, you need to understand that Governments do not own languages. Most languages stray across borders like stray cats. Could the British really claim rights over every Trademark that is based on an English word, I think not. Indeed, we can't even mind our own bloody business with our own ccTLD without getting bloody Yanky Lawyers try to trample all over us. Reverse Hijacking seems to be the only US industry turning a profit these days!
I am not really suggesting anything new as I am not proposing an idea of giving equivalent of .com or .net in non-latin languages to registrars other than Verisign.

All I am saying is that the issue is very political. And countries like China will intervene if Verisign tries to obtain exclusive rights over IDN TLDs like .公司 (company) and .网 (network). Sure, China doesn't own the language of Chinese, but it wouldn't care about such a thing. And once big countries like China come out with strong opposition, I don't think ICANN can ignore it.

Last edited by Ryu; 27th March 2009 at 04:37 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:48 AM.

Site Sponsors
Your ad here
buy t-shirt
מחיר הזהב

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0
Copyright idnforums.com 2005

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54