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-   -   Just lost a .cn domain (http://www.idnforums.com/forums/22357-just-lost-a-cn-domain.html)

phio 16th June 2009 11:25 PM

Just lost a .cn domain
 
I just lost a .cn domain to CNNIC, it was probably too sexy in nature, but it had really high searches from within China.

So in case anyone is wondering about the laws in China re: Domains:

ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS FOR .CN REGISTRATIONS.

Indemnification. You agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless CNNIC, NeuLevel, Inc., and their directors, officers, employees, representatives, agents, affiliates, and stockholders from and against any and all claims, suits, actions, other proceedings, damages, liabilities, costs and expenses of any kind, including without limitation reasonable legal fees and expenses, arising out of or relating to Your (i) domain name registration and (ii) use of any .cn domain name. You agree that this indemnification obligation shall survive the termination or expiration of this Agreement.

.CN Use Restrictions. You acknowledge and agree that You may not register or use a .cn domain name that is deemed by the China Internet Network Information Center ("CNNIC") to:

(i) Be against the basic principles prescribed in the Constitution of the People's Republic of China ("PRC");

(ii) Jeopardize national security, leak state secrets, intend to overturn the government, or disrupt the state of integrity of the PRC;

(iii) Harm national honor and national interests of the PRC;

(iv) Instigate hostility or discrimination between different nationalities, or disrupt the national solidarity of the PRC;

(v) Violate the PRC's religion policies or propagate cult and feudal superstition;

(vi) Spread rumors, disturb public order or disrupt social stability of the PRC;

(vii) Spread pornography, obscenity, gambling, violence, homicide, terror or instigate crimes in the PRC;

(viii) Insult, libel against others and infringe other people's legal rights and interests in the PRC; or

(ix) Take any other action prohibited in laws, rules and administrative regulations of the PRC.

Collection of Registration Information. You acknowledge and agree that Dynadot has requested certain information from You during the .cn domain name registration process in order to meet CNNIC and NeuLevel, Inc., requirements, and that You have willingly volunteered such information. You acknowledge and agree that such information will be shared with CNNIC and NeuLevel, Inc.

.CN Enforcement of Accurate WHOIS Data. You agree that Dynadot has the right to accept written complaints from third parties regarding false and/or inaccurate WHOIS data. You agree to comply with any regulation concerning the accuracy of WHOIS data, or enforcement of any such regulation, that may exist between Dynadot and NeuLevel, Inc.

.CN Transfer Restrictions. You acknowledge and agree that You may not transfer a .cn domain name registration to or from a domain registrar that is headquartered, or controlled by an entity located, inside China.

.CN Privacy Restrictions. You acknowledge and agree that You are not permitted to purchase or use Domain Privacy service in connection with any .cn domain name registration.

.CN Representations. You represent that, to the best of Your knowledge and belief, neither the registration of the domain name nor the manner in which it is directly or indirectly used infringes the legal rights of any third party.

.CN Jurisdiction. For the adjudication of disputes concerning or arising from use of the domain name registered, You shall submit, without prejudice to other potentially applicable jurisdictions, to the jurisdiction of the courts of (1) Your domicile state, (2) Dynadot's domicile in California, and (3) the People's Republic of China.

.CN Reservation of Rights. You agree that Your domain name registration shall be subject to suspension, cancellation, or transfer pursuant to any NeuLevel, Inc., or CNNIC adopted specification or policy, or pursuant to any registrar or registry procedure not inconsistent with a NeuLevel or CNNIC adopted specification or policy, (1) to correct mistakes by Dynadot, NeuLevel, Inc., or CNNIC in registering the domain name or (2) for the resolution of disputes concerning the registered domain name. CNNIC and NeuLevel, Inc., reserve the right to "hold", deny, cancel, or transfer any registration that they deem necessary, in their sole discretion. You acknowledge and agree that Dynadot shall not be liable to You or any other party in connection with claims, damages, losses, expenses or costs incurred or suffered by You as a result of actions taken or not taken by CNNIC or NeuLevel, Inc., or other third parties.

CNNIC Dispute Resolution Policy. You agree to obey, comply with, and be bound by the CNNIC Dispute Resolution Policy (located at http://www.cnnic.net.cn/ruler/20.shtml and http://www.cnnic.net.cn/doc/e-10.shtml, respectively) and any and all revisions which may be made from time to time by CNNIC at its sole discretion.

An additional Note:


Article 29

The domain name holder shall comply with the laws, rules and administrative regulations of the state concerning the Internet.

In case any violation of legal rights and interests are caused by registering or using certain domain name, the domain name holder shall take the responsibility.

gammascalper 17th June 2009 12:04 AM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
(i) through (ix) can cover any domain if they wanted it to. I guess yours fell under (vii). Bummer.

The irony is that there's a rub 'n' tug joint on many street corners in major cities. Chinese gov't are very tolerant in that way.

phio 17th June 2009 12:32 AM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gammascalper (Bericht 135513)
(i) through (ix) can cover any domain if they wanted it to. I guess yours fell under (vii). Bummer.
.

Better now, than later -- if it had been developed.
It was parked at dd rev parking and I don't think it got one hit.

markits 17th June 2009 03:17 AM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
CNNIC should really buy the domain from you the legal registrant. Unfortunately, they simply take it away from you. Is this an indication that .cn is not safe (as discussed in the past)?

gammascalper 17th June 2009 03:21 AM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by markits (Bericht 135526)
CNNIC should really buy the domain from you the legal registrant. Unfortunately, they simply take it away from you. Is this an indication that .cn is not safe (as discussed in the past)?

IMO the major sites will have no problems with IDN.CN. I'm a big believer in it.

It's the little guy who doesn't develop, has no ICP, and who has no 关系 who has to worry.

alpha 17th June 2009 04:44 AM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gammascalper (Bericht 135527)
IMO the major sites will have no problems with IDN.CN. I'm a big believer in it.

It's the little guy who doesn't develop, has no ICP, and who has no 关系 who has to worry.

I know there are some die-hard .cn fans here.. but whichever way you try and spin this; this sort of thing is the death-knell for any sort of domain aftermarket in idn.cn

over time we will find that even the "valuable" domains will hit a ceiling in value, beyond which it becomes too risky to pony up larger sums of $.

agree with Gamma, that developed sites will have a greater deal of protection - but most domainer-domainer action is done on undeveloped sites.

JamesZ 17th June 2009 08:25 PM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alphamale (Bericht 135533)
I know there are some die-hard .cn fans here.. but whichever way you try and spin this; this sort of thing is the death-knell for any sort of domain aftermarket in idn.cn

over time we will find that even the "valuable" domains will hit a ceiling in value, beyond which it becomes too risky to pony up larger sums of $.

For those foreigners who do not understand how things work there, it is true. But big money will not come from foreigners anyway.

mulligan 17th June 2009 08:50 PM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesZ (Bericht 135551)
For those foreigners who do not understand how things work there, it is true. But big money will not come from foreigners anyway.

When the chance of the domain being taken away is a very real possibility who is going to pour money into .cn?

I can assure you there is plenty of 'foreign' money looking for a home ... .cn is not where it's going though.

Wot 17th June 2009 11:56 PM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
"it was probably too sexy in nature,"

Easy enough to ignore but even Phio thinks that it broke the rules!

Me, I am more than happy for those that say .cn won't fly, more opportunity for me and the other .cn' ers.

There are quite a few top Chinese idners on this forum and some great portfolios-many premium idn.cn included- are they all wrong too?

I am currently in Shanghai, on the way to Beijing later today. Has been only one year since I was last in China and oh boy - the west, particularly the US is becoming an also ran. :eek:

My travelling companions are finding it difficult to change US$ - China has too many already!


Have I seen IDN, yes- .com- oh- and .cn. :)

mulligan 18th June 2009 10:25 AM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
I'm not saying they won't fly, just that for me they are too risky to pay anything more than reg fee for them, regardless of the domain.

Specially with the myth that was perpetrated on this forum that if you 'owned' a .cn for a certain amount of time (15 days?) you were safe.

domainguru 18th June 2009 12:33 PM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Let's face it, all registries have T&Cs + dispute resolution policies, and the ccTLDs tend to be way more restrictive than gTLDs. Its just increased risk that you need to factor in.

It certainly won't kill the secondary market in a ccTLD, but if relatively "normal" domains were ever "seized" by a ccTLD registry / government, it could easily have a devastating effect on resale prices. As we have seen with the collapse of the world financial system, confidence can be everything.

The truth is, you never own domains. But how close you get to owning them is registry-dependent.

"lessee beware" (don't know how to translate that in Latin, its a tricky one, sorry).

blackops 20th June 2009 02:43 PM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alphamale (Bericht 135533)
this sort of thing is the death-knell for any sort of domain aftermarket in idn.cn

Hardly... You can't take an isolated incident, and make a sweeping conclusion like this because of it. There are many occasions where .com domains have been taken away from people by Verisign.

Things are, culturally, a little different in China. But then, everyone already knows that.

mulligan 20th June 2009 03:13 PM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Culturally things are a little different if you step outside your front door ... That's not really the point ...

People came to this forum with the claim that if you 'owned' an IDN.cn for more than 15 days you were 'safe' .. this turned out to be bullshit.

btw, it's not an isolated incident .. Just ask the losing registrants.




Quote:

Originally Posted by blackops (Bericht 135666)
Hardly... You can't take an isolated incident, and make a sweeping conclusion like this because of it. There are many occasions where .com domains have been taken away from people by Verisign.

Things are, culturally, a little different in China. But then, everyone already knows that.


domainguru 20th June 2009 03:14 PM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
When has VeriSign "taken .com names back"? I think my memory is getting a little rusty...

blackops 20th June 2009 04:20 PM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mulligan (Bericht 135667)
People came to this forum with the claim that if you 'owned' an IDN.cn for more than 15 days you were 'safe' .. this turned out to be bullshit.

One or two people tell you this, and they now form your 'global' view on this issue?! :o The truth is, CNNIC are probably far more honest and upfront than "Verisign"; they say, very clearly "no porn", the situ with Netsol/Verisign however is a little more insidious...

Speaking from my own experience, in 1996 I successfully regged 4 extr. generic 'adult' names in .com. They had taken my money, and I was going to hold on to them for a while until I decided what I would do with them. Then, after a day or two, I got an email and call from Netsol/Verisign saying they couldn't be registered due to their adult (and arguably offensive) nature.

Naturally, I was very disappointed and did consider legal action but in the end I thought "ok, fair enough". After all, the names were perhaps a little too 'racy'...

Three months later, I checked to see if the names could still be regged and was expecting to either see that they were still showing as available to reg (only for some poor soul to later find out they couldn't be) OR that Netsol/Verisign had put up a message saying they couldn't now be regged.

BUT, what did I see?..

I was utterly shocked to see that ALL 4 names had a registrant! Worse still, I typed in the names to see fully fitted-out sites, all on a theme, and all highly professional. I checked again some weeks later, and the situ was the same.

I'm sure mine is not an isolated case either...

mulligan 20th June 2009 05:44 PM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
I'm seriously not interested in your Netsol/Verisign experience ... What does interest me is the fact that trusted sellers on this forum claimed that after 15 days if you had registered an IDN.cn it was safe ... I hate repeating myself but here you go .. It was bullshit

Rubber Duck 20th June 2009 07:06 PM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mulligan (Bericht 135683)
I'm seriously not interested in your Netsol/Verisign experience ... What does interest me is the fact that trusted sellers on this forum claimed that after 15 days if you had registered an IDN.cn it was safe ... I hate repeating myself but here you go .. It was bullshit

All ccTLD are bullshit unless it can be seen they have a robust UDRP equivalent.

I know from my own experience .co.uk fits that description. I wouldn't put money on much else.

alpha 21st June 2009 01:11 AM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blackops (Bericht 135670)
One or two people tell you this, and they now form your 'global' view on this issue?! :o The truth is, CNNIC are probably far more honest and upfront than "Verisign" ... Speaking from my own experience, in 1996...

Back in 1996, I've no doubt things were less transparent and there were few rules.. but that was 13 years ago.. a lot has changed since then.

We are talking about today.

and today what we are hearing is that Verisign like many other registrys have a due process for "taking" domains. And although people will argue that the outcome was/wasn't fair; - it is still a democratic process. You are guaranteed to be able to speak and you will be heard, and someone else will make a decision based on public rules.

today what we are hearing from more than a few people and more than a few examples, is with CNNIC, is that there is no democracy, no process. You have no voice and you have no rights. All that happens is you wake up one morning and your domain might/might not have been taken.
This lack of democracy might be the way things are done in China... who am I to say whether it is a good or bad thing...

.. but my point still stands - if you cannot trust that your domain will not be taken without due process, then it can only hold back the value of the domain.

JamesZ 21st June 2009 05:25 AM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alphamale (Bericht 135694)
Back in 1996, I've no doubt things were less transparent and there were few rules.. but that was 13 years ago.. a lot has changed since then.

We are talking about today.

If you only look at today, you may fail tomorrow. To not fail tomorrow, you need to look at the history.
Just as Verisign could improve over the years, so can CNNIC. Logical?
I was in China ten years ago. I know how things have changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alphamale (Bericht 135694)
.. but my point still stands - if you cannot trust that your domain will not be taken without due process, then it can only hold back the value of the domain.

This is true and it is certainly a good thing for today. Otherwise, I could not build a decent portfolio as a latecomer.

There is no doubt that China wants .cn and IDN.cn fly. To achieve that, they know they need to build the trust. And I bet the trust will come before IDN takes off.

By the way, I like your blog very much. Keep up the good work!

blackops 21st June 2009 05:59 AM

Re: Just lost a .cn domain
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alphamale (Bericht 135694)
.. but my point still stands - if you cannot trust that your domain will not be taken without due process, then it can only hold back the value of the domain.

You make some good points, but I fail to see how "due process" hasn't already occurred here - Phio said himself that the name was "probably too sexy in nature" and in article 7 of the CNNIC terms it specifically prohibits indecent domain names, so where exactly is the surprise that it was taken?

Or, are you saying that China itself has no "due process"?..

As DG has rightfully pointed out, if CNNIC took a "normal" name i.e. a non contentious domain, for no reason, then it would effect the .cn aftermarket. But, in the 12 years that CNNIC has been operating, there has never (to my knowledge) been a single case where that has happened.


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