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Old 19th June 2009, 05:22 PM
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UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/d...2009-0289.html

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Old 19th June 2009, 07:14 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

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Originally Posted by Drewbert View Post
It's a second attempt by the Complainant's (world's richest chinese, Li Ka Shing 's business empire) lawyers making the claim after it failed with its earlier complaint with ADNDRC HK (previous outcome unexpected by the Complainant and ADNDRC HK with the help of ADNDRC HK and many puppet & low-quality panels there like David Kreider, who has accomplished his task to help Li Ka Shing robbing some 8 idns with illegitimate panel slection procedures and ADNDRC HK's abused & biased proceedings).

Glad to see there are some conscientious panels with WIPO and great that David Kreider was not there and congratulation again to the Respondent!! A second round good job and nice victory!!

No matter what is the outcome and that there are many crooks in ADNDRC HK and in its listed panelists, this no. 1 HK business giant (the Complainant) is super successful in business (though unethical in many occasions), their acts of filing many claims for various chinese idns indicate they see the future of idns and do not want to buy idn names at huge price in future like they did for Tom.com (US$2.5M) in 1999.

Last edited by MDM; 19th June 2009 at 07:36 PM..
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Old 19th June 2009, 08:24 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

would cheung kong group holdings at 6 characters...would the complainant have lost as well on this longer more specific name ?
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Old 19th June 2009, 10:29 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

Are you saying this is the 2nd UDRP for that exact domain name, with the same complainant and respondent each time?
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Old 20th June 2009, 06:48 AM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

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Originally Posted by Drewbert View Post
Are you saying this is the 2nd UDRP for that exact domain name, with the same complainant and respondent each time?

Yes it's a 2nd complaint of the exact name where the 1st attempt was filed with ADNDRC HK.

The previous respondent transferred the name to another natural person (seems related to the original respondent) subsequent to the previous complaint being rejected.

In this 'new' and repeated filing case, the complainant also added another party to be joint complainants.




Another "rubber stamp" panelist "employed" by ADNDRC HK (together with the complainant's lawyers??) to cheat is Yun Zhao. He/she has been panelist to 30 ADNDRC HK cases and he/she ordered 100% transfer to the complainants!! The ADNDRC HK case administrator handling all those 30 cases was the same guy Dennis CAI. What a conincidence!!

So far, ADNDRC HK just has finished less than 200 cases but it has more than 70 on-list panelists. So, it's impossible to have David Kreider and Yun Zhao appointed to so many cases based on the rules of game if such rules are applied legitimately by ADNDRC HK. These 2 puppet and crooks panelists have handled some 1/4 of of all cases filed with ADNDRC HK, while these 2 panelists just represent some 2.5% population of the listed panelists. They both ordered transfer in 100% of their cases handled (except 長江.com, traditional chinese, where there were 2 other panelists in the 3-panelist panel having different view from David Kreider and they denied the complaint).

There must be something unethical and illegitimate involved by the complainant, its lawyers, the ADNDRC HK and some of its panelists.

Last edited by MDM; 20th June 2009 at 07:23 AM..
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Old 20th June 2009, 07:23 AM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

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Originally Posted by MDM View Post
The previous respondent transferred the name to another natural person (seems related to the original respondent) subsequent to the previous complaint being rejected.
Never a good idea to transfer a "risky" domain to a new party after having won a UDRP case. Its just inviting a new case. But hey, if you can win each new case, all good
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Old 20th June 2009, 11:43 AM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

Bent as a nine bob note
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Old 20th June 2009, 12:02 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

If so, hope they get de-accredited (is that a word?) ASAP.
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Old 20th June 2009, 12:07 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by domainguru View Post
Never a good idea to transfer a "risky" domain to a new party after having won a UDRP case. Its just inviting a new case. But hey, if you can win each new case, all good
Well unless you sell it of course.

Having said that the new owner can use the initial ruling as a defense where the points are still valid.
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Old 20th June 2009, 12:54 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

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Originally Posted by Rubber Duck View Post
Well unless you sell it of course.

Having said that the new owner can use the initial ruling as a defense where the points are still valid.
Except that the main defense in UDRP is often "I got the name before the TM was made." Doesn't really work so well when you've just bought it!
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Old 20th June 2009, 01:04 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck View Post
Well unless you sell it of course.

Having said that the new owner can use the initial ruling as a defense where the points are still valid.

Defence are valid to a particular owner, when beneficial ownership changes hand, the previous defence may become invalid. That's why the complainant attempted a 2nd-round 'speculation'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by domainguru View Post
Except that the main defense in UDRP is often "I got the name before the TM was made." Doesn't really work so well when you've just bought it!

Ownership transfer may just involve 'LEGAL' interest change, the new legal owner can claim the 'BENEFICIAL' interest has NOT changed, and this can be endorsed by the previous owner.

Last edited by MDM; 20th June 2009 at 01:22 PM..
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Old 20th June 2009, 01:07 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by domainguru View Post
If so, hope they get de-accredited (is that a word?) ASAP.
ADNDRC HK just takes the center running as a business and impartiality is nothing to them (they haven't noticed what they have done has trace and some are public record). They are people probably with legal training and maintain close contact & relationship with practising lawyers representing complainants and the panelists (usually practising lawyers as well). They manipulate on the proceedings, timing and selection of panelists.

ADNDRC HK's crooks stay employed if such 'game' can continue. The game is: more complaints be filed with them instead of with other centers.

Complainants and their lawyers are also willing to join the game as filing complaints with ADNDRC HK almost guarantees success as the ADNDRC Hk is not impartial and willing to stay so to attract more business for its own interest.

Panelists are also attracted to center having most cases handled.

Yes, the only solution to stop ADNDRC HK's game, is to "de-accredit" the crooks center and leaves the dispute resolution a fair playing field for both complainants and respondents.

Last edited by MDM; 20th June 2009 at 01:44 PM..
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Old 20th June 2009, 01:24 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDM View Post
Ownership transfer may just involve 'LEGAL' interest change, the new legal owner can claim the 'BENEFICIAL' interest has NOT changed, and this can be endorsed by the previous owner.
That's interesting. Have you get a reference URL for that? We might be moving some domains to a new business structure...
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Old 20th June 2009, 02:10 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

.
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Old 20th June 2009, 02:13 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by domainguru View Post
That's interesting. Have you get a reference URL for that? We might be moving some domains to a new business structure...

This was happending in this repeated filing case.


In the original filing with ADNDRC HK, the respondent (registrant) was X, who claimed to be agent registering the name for a Dongguan, China co (东莞公司), "东莞市长实集团有限公司". Such co name's major component, "长实集团", is identical to the disputed name.

X transferred to Y the domain name after the original complaint was rejected. Y claimed himself the managing director of the Dongguan, China co.

In the repeated complaint with WIPO, the complainant not just complained X, but also Y. However, the complainant trickily and intentionally omitted the Donnguan co (name contains "长实集团" as mentioned) in the respondent's list.

So in original complaint, X was just LEGAL owner, the Donggua, China co was the BENEFICIAL owner.

In the repeated complaint with WIPO, only the LEGAL ownership changed from X to Y. Both X and Y endorsed that the BENEFICIAL interest held by the Dongguan, China co has never changed and this should be the major key of repeated success.


Below is extract of the decision:

"第一被投诉人受东莞公司所托,申请及注册了争议域名;自称东莞公司执行总经理的第二被投诉人是代东莞公司持有域名。因此,专家组认定,被投诉人对争议域名拥有权利或拥有合法权益。

根据以上分析,专家组认为投诉人未能满足政策第4条(a)项第二个条件的要求。"

Translation in brief of the deicison extract:

First respondent [i.e. X] was assigned by Dongguan, China co to register the name.

Second respondent [i.e. Y] claimed to be managing director of Donggan, China co.

Panel considered respondents has interest over the name and complainant fails to meet para 4(a) of the Policy.

Last edited by MDM; 20th June 2009 at 02:20 PM..
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Old 20th June 2009, 02:19 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

MDM, seems to me you speak a lot of sense here.
Knowing how things operate in (some parts of) Asia something like this does not surprise me and I'd be astonished if someone somewhere is not making $$$ out of it.
The only problem is that it's not a big enough scandal to warrant the 'higher ups' attention.

Your statistics regarding Yun Zhao & Dennis CAI need to be gathered into an identifiable form of evidence, dates, cases, complaintant, defendant, panel, representing lawyers etc etc .. showing a correlation of data that obviously points to wrongdoing or at least shows a pattern of favouring the complaintant.
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Old 20th June 2009, 02:24 PM
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Re: UDRP 长实集团.com complaint denied with dissenting opinion

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Originally Posted by mulligan View Post
MDM, seems to me you speak a lot of sense here.
Knowing how things operate in (some parts of) Asia something like this does not surprise me and I'd be astonished if someone somewhere is not making $$$ out of it.
The only problem is that it's not a big enough scandal to warrant the 'higher ups' attention.

Your statistics regarding Yun Zhao & Dennis CAI need to be gathered into an identifiable form of evidence, dates, cases, complaintant, defendant, panel, representing lawyers etc etc .. showing a correlation of data that obviously points to wrongdoing or at least shows a pattern of favouring the complaintant.
There should be lots of other wrongdoing if indepth investigation are done as it's the philosophy ADNDRC HK is running it's "business" and to survive and to dominate over the other 2 centers in ADNDRC (Beijing and Seoul). ADNDRC HK runs its "business" jointly with the complainant's lawyers (who urged their clients to file complaints with ADNDRC HK and make big money), and with some panelists (who have interest or connections directly / indirectly with the complainants and its lawyers). This is how the game in ADNDRC HK has been running.

The noted correlation is very obvious for Yun Zhao and David Kreider, they are panelists. Dennis CAI and Ricky WONG are just crooks "case administrators" but they have been maninpulating the proceedings as said.

Last edited by MDM; 20th June 2009 at 02:45 PM..
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