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-   -   Symbol Domains Under Threat! (http://www.idnforums.com/forums/2263-symbol-domains-under-threat.html)

blastfromthepast 22nd April 2006 04:43 PM

Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
IETF has proposed to eliminate all symbol characters from domain names.

Your input is appreaciated.

See: http://www.idnforums.com/forums/2259...ed-issues.html

Read: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/...xtsteps-05.txt

idnceo 22nd April 2006 04:59 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
what does it mean? im gonna get a refund for my 2 dingbats? yeah sure im daydreaming.......but it really sucks they allowed to register the domains, took the payment and later to say like in a store ありがとう ございました!!! but now you got nothing, what a joke! :mad:

g 22nd April 2006 05:19 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
that's funny you should sue them and get a compensation .

touchring 22nd April 2006 05:34 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idnceo
what does it mean? im gonna get a refund for my 2 dingbats? yeah sure im daydreaming.......but it really sucks they allowed to register the domains, took the payment and later to say like in a store ありがとう ございました!!! but now you got nothing, what a joke! :mad:


I got some puntuation symbols - i hope they do not cancel those as well. :o

Rubber Duck 22nd April 2006 06:13 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by touchring
I got some puntuation symbols - i hope they do not cancel those as well. :o

I think those were specifically covered. You will need to have a look at the original document.

touchring 22nd April 2006 06:33 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
I think those were specifically covered. You will need to have a look at the original document.

I'm keeping 2 fingers crossed, we'll never know, they might even regard any single character idn as a symbol! Think about it, how is it possible to differentiate a letter or character or puntuation from a dingbat!

Rubber Duck 22nd April 2006 06:41 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by touchring
I'm keeping 2 fingers crossed, we'll never know, they might even regard any single character idn as a symbol! Think about it, how is it possible to differentiate a letter or character or puntuation from a dingbat!

<<<Unicode characters that are not needed to write words or numbers in
any of the world's languages should be eliminated from the list of
characters that are appropriate in DNS labels.>>>

I think we can consider all alphabetic and numberical characters safe in whatever script as well as Hanzi and Kanji.

It would seem to mean anything that is neither Chinese Characters or Alphanumeric in any script is potentially under threat.

I personally doubt, however, that these recommendations would be implemented except where there is a sound technical rational for doing so.

yanni 22nd April 2006 06:51 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
.

Happy Birthday, Dude!

I'm about a year behind you.

Rubber Duck 22nd April 2006 06:53 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yanni
Happy Birthday, Dude!

I'm about a year behind you.

Thanks Yanni!

blastfromthepast 22nd April 2006 10:17 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idnceo
what does it mean? im gonna get a refund for my 2 dingbats? yeah sure im daydreaming.......but it really sucks they allowed to register the domains, took the payment and later to say like in a store ありがとう ございました!!! but now you got nothing, what a joke! :mad:

ケースバイケース、ケースバイケース。

IDNer 29th April 2006 02:34 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
I feel very sad to learn about this info.

Pardon and forgive me - if anybody wants to dumping your symbol/dingbats, please PM me ... thanks

blastfromthepast 29th April 2006 02:45 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IDNer
I feel very sad to learn about this info.

Pardon and forgive me - if anybody wants to dumping your symbol/dingbats, please PM me ... thanks

Dingbats are NOT going to go away. This was just a suggestion by a person who should know better.

idn1234 25th May 2006 01:08 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
[
Quote:

Originally Posted by blastfromthepast
Dingbats are NOT going to go away. This was just a suggestion by a person who should know better.

Any further news on this guys? I for one will be
taking legal action against ICANN if they try to
delete my IDN 'symbols' at the registry...

The 'symbols' I have were registered several
years ago and are all single character typeable
.coms, and there's no way on earth that i'd let
ICANN get away with deleting them at source!

There was no problem with ownership and use
in the early 1990's, when they let x.com, z.com,
etc.. be reg'd, even when at that time there was
a supposed 'security' concern re: the release of
single-character names...

The same situation appears to be 'on the cards'
now with symbols, except this time around none
of the 'symbol' based domains (incl. dingbats) pose
ANY kind of technical problem for DNS or, anything
else for that matter.

And if they decide they want to delete the names
purely for aesthetic reasons, then they may as well
say they're going to delete sex.com because they
don't want to be seen endorsing porn on the net!

Absolutely absurd. Even 'though IE7 has not come
out yet, all of my 'symbols' generate worthwhile
traffic, and I have a definite plan for their future
development. If ICANN think they can sweep this
'under the carpet', because of the fact that there
are comparatively few symbol-based domain
owners, then they've got another thing coming.

domainguru 25th May 2006 02:13 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
I do remember it being explicitedly stated at the time bq-- IDNs were launched by the VeriSign registry along the lines of "this is a testbed and any name could be deleted in the future". Which was exactly what happened to all .org IDNs?

But that was when they were bq-- and not xn-- ....

idn1234 25th May 2006 03:15 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by domainguru
I do remember it being explicitedly stated at the time bq-- IDNs were launched by the VeriSign registry along the lines of "this is a testbed and any name could be deleted in the future". Which was exactly what happened to all .org IDNs?

But that was when they were bq-- and not xn-- ....

Ok, thanks for that. IDN's, however, were (and are)
promoted in exactly the same manner as 'normal'
(text/number based domains) and no such warning
has ever been given by ICANN that they would or
could ever be deleted. Nor did they originally attempt
(when IDN's first came out) to discriminate between
symbol-based domains and those containing foreign
language scripts.

Ignoring for a moment, the legal rights (incl. rights
through use) that my company has now acquired in
these domains, this latter-day (apparent) desire to
discriminate between IDN's now is ridiculous. If they
do implement IETF's recommendation to 'eliminate'
symbol-based domains then they are acting illegally
and their domain name fraud/negligence/incompetence
will be dealt with in the courts.

domainguru 25th May 2006 03:43 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idn1234
Ok, thanks for that. IDN's, however, were (and are)
promoted in exactly the same manner as 'normal'
(text/number based domains) and no such warning
has ever been given by ICANN that they would or
could ever be deleted. Nor did they originally attempt
(when IDN's first came out) to discriminate between
symbol-based domains and those containing foreign
language scripts.

Ignoring for a moment, the legal rights (incl. rights
through use) that my company has now acquired in
these domains, this latter-day (apparent) desire to
discriminate between IDN's now is ridiculous. If they
do implement IETF's recommendation to 'eliminate'
symbol-based domains then they are acting illegally
and their domain name fraud/negligence/incompetence
will be dealt with in the courts.

All I can say is during the IDN VeriSign testbed, there were explicit warnings all over the place that the names could be deleted in the future.

But like I say, that was VeriSign's own version (bq--) and presumably, since these are now shiny IETF "official" xn-- domains, those warnings no longer apply.

But really, if you have serious money invested in symbol IDNs, then your time (and money) would be best spent talking to an IP lawyer specializing in domains. Venting is fine, but you need to find out the real situation and what your rights are likely to be in the event the cancellation gets scheduled.

idn1234 25th May 2006 04:08 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by domainguru
All I can say is during the IDN VeriSign testbed, there were explicit warnings all over the place that the names could be deleted in the future.

But like I say, that was VeriSign's own version (bq--) and presumably, since these are now shiny IETF "official" xn-- domains, those warnings no longer apply.

But really, if you have serious money invested in symbol IDNs, then your time (and money) would be best spent talking to an IP lawyer specializing in domains. Venting is fine, but you need to find out the real situation and what your rights are likely to be in the event the cancellation gets scheduled.

Hi Domainguru,

Thanks for that, and yes, I took legal advice about
this situ a few months ago and am advised ICANN
would not 'have a leg to stand on', if they chose to
delete ANY type of symbol-based domain (incl. the
dingbats domains).

The other consideration is that all of my symbols are
typeable (not ALT+xyz, but directly from the keyboard)
and not untypeable domains, like dingbats etc.. and
with this in mind there is no way it could be argued
that I might've or should've known that they 'could'
be deleted at some point in the future - they are
just the same as any other domain, and have the
same legal standing.

Anyone else got symbol-based domains, and want
to contribute to this thread?

Regards

burnsinternet 26th May 2006 09:01 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idn1234
Even 'though IE7 has not come
out yet, all of my 'symbols' generate worthwhile
traffic, and I have a definite plan for their future
development.

I think most of us have symbol domains or single characters of some sort. The question is: Why? I cannot fathom dropping my single character Greek, Hebrew, etc. or my cute and instantly recognizable symbols of all sorts. However, I get zero traffic to them.

Are they like curios to us? We keep them around because they remind us of the old days when a single letter reg would have been a goldmine? Are they like pets because they are cute and make us feel warm and fuzzy, but they just take up food (reg fees) and space?

Are you guys and gals really getting a lot of PPC income from them or could you use that reg fee for one more decent IDN? Just a question I pose as I contemplate reg fees next year.

idn1234 26th May 2006 09:46 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Ok, thanks for that. Yes, of course, symbol
domains that can not be typed will very
likely have 0 traffic. However, symbols that
can be typed, and are on country keyboards,
do have traffic...

Is there anyone on this forum who has a
keyboard typeable symbol domain? (and, if
so, what is the domain and what traffic does
it generate?).

Thanks

joeyskip 26th May 2006 10:15 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Hello,

My name is Joseph Scazzola, I hold both IDN symbols & IDN character domains. My most notable are ©.com and ®.com.

I have held these names since they where in testbed in the bq-- days. I have been working hard develop and get the word out about IDN's.

I was told by Gary Krall of Verisign, in 2003, that when the names where to come out of testbed in mid 2005 there would be no risk of deletion.

Then to find out that they may be deleted is just ludicrous. This type of behavior should not be tolerated!

For some these domains may be curios but I do not see this. When I look at ©.com and ®.com I see successfull websites. I see potential. I would not have spent so much time building and researching categories if I knew they where just going to be deleted.

If this happens and we get hosed I would think it would be a good time to start a class action suit.

Until then we need to draw attention to IDN's. I would suggest starting a letter writing campaign to news papers and your state officials. It is time to make some noise.

burnsinternet 26th May 2006 10:32 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idn1234
Is there anyone on this forum who has a
keyboard typeable symbol domain? (and, if
so, what is the domain and what traffic does
it generate?).

Thanks

That was my point. Some of mine are typeable and none get any traffic yet. I believe I am in the minority.

However, that begs the question. What is the real value of these domains except as collectibles (like baseball cards).

Also, I don't think anyone is going to delete our domains. Don't sweat it. It is a revenue source. Why would they delete them?

joeyskip 26th May 2006 10:51 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Plus...

IDN's, all IDN's, work on a "out of the box" version of Apple Surfari.

blastfromthepast 27th May 2006 10:26 AM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyskip
Hello,

My name is Joseph Scazzola, I hold both IDN symbols & IDN character domains. My most notable are ©.com and ®.com.

Great to have you here Joseph! I remember seeing ©.com taken in the early days. Congrats to you for not dropping these, as many did in the last few years.

touchring 27th May 2006 10:49 AM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Verisign <> ICANN.

"Typeable Symbols" Vs "Untypeable Dingbats."


The verdict isn't out yet, so i would advise caution until the situation clears up - if symbols are worth money, they will be when things clear up, so there's nothing to lose other than $8/year holding fee.

blastfromthepast 27th May 2006 03:06 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Typeability varies among OSes and among input systems.

On the Mac you can type ONSEN and select ♨ instead of the Kanji in the character list.

On the PC, it is difficult to type ¢, while it is trivial on the Mac.

It is easy to type ☺ on the PC, but is impossible to type it in with the Mac.

idn1234 27th May 2006 03:20 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by touchring
Verisign <> ICANN.

"Typeable Symbols" Vs "Untypeable Dingbats."


The verdict isn't out yet, so i would advise caution until the situation clears up - if symbols are worth money, they will be when things clear up, so there's nothing to lose other than $8/year holding fee.

With symbol-based valuations there are many
aspects to consider. For some owners, they
should be focused solely on the $8 reg fee and
put it down to 'one of those things', if they ever
let their symbols drop or they get deleted.

At the other extreme, there are those who would
be unwise to let their 'symbols' go for any less
than $1mn+. There are many variables and possibilities
to consider here, not least of which is the potential to
create a wholly unique (and compelling) corporate
brand.

Think about it folks.. have you ever heard the saying
'a picture can say a thousand words'?.. And what
about the future of IDN, do you really think software
manufacturers are going to just 'leave it there', once
the IDN 'genie' has escaped from the bottle?...

And isn't it possible that in the future you could licence
your symbols' image (or visual representation, incl. '.com')
to a much larger company, as it is the defining symbol for
their industry (and they want/need to use it).

Oh, and what about subsequent browser versions??

Those of you who have an understanding of what rarity,
branding, and value is really about would be wise to
chat with Joseph and/or myself now.

touchring 27th May 2006 03:25 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Well, knowing that symbols are actually prohibited under ICANN rules, and still offer them for sale for $1 mln? Well done! :)

idn1234 27th May 2006 03:44 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by touchring
Well, knowing that symbols are actually prohibited under ICANN rules, and still offer them for sale for $1 mln? Well done! :)

Touchring, that is not correct; ICANN, have not
'prohibited' symbol-based domain names, their
current intention is only seek to restrict there
numbers.

ICANN's current/latest advice suggests they do
not want symbol-based domains to continue to
be registered, and they even outline how such
domains can continue to be used (incl. DNS
changes, etc..).

touchring 27th May 2006 03:49 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idn1234
Touchring, that is not correct; ICANN, have not
'prohibited' symbol-based domain names, their
current intention is only seek to restrict there
numbers.

ICANN's current/latest advice suggests they do
not want symbol-based domains to continue to
be registered, and they even outline how such
domains can continue to be used (incl. DNS
changes, etc..).


IC. So do you mean that ICANN wants to prohibit future registration? All this is getting confusing. There is a big difference between stopping registration and prohibition.

idn1234 27th May 2006 03:55 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by touchring
IC. So do you mean that ICANN wants to prohibit future registration? All this is getting confusing.

Yes, that is right. Of course, language-based
IDN's will remain unaffected; this thread only
concerns symbol-based IDN's, and IETF's recent
recommendation to ICANN that they be
'eliminated'.

Best regards

domainguru 30th May 2006 03:28 AM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyskip
Hello,

My name is Joseph Scazzola, I hold both IDN symbols & IDN character domains. My most notable are ©.com and ®.com.

I have held these names since they where in testbed in the bq-- days. I have been working hard develop and get the word out about IDN's.

I was told by Gary Krall of Verisign, in 2003, that when the names where to come out of testbed in mid 2005 there would be no risk of deletion.

Then to find out that they may be deleted is just ludicrous. This type of behavior should not be tolerated!

For some these domains may be curios but I do not see this. When I look at ©.com and ®.com I see successfull websites. I see potential. I would not have spent so much time building and researching categories if I knew they where just going to be deleted.

If this happens and we get hosed I would think it would be a good time to start a class action suit.

Until then we need to draw attention to IDN's. I would suggest starting a letter writing campaign to news papers and your state officials. It is time to make some noise.

1) If you registered as bq-- in the VeriSign testbed, then you would have seen the warnings all over the place that "this is a testbed. All names could be deleted in the future".
2) Who is "Gary Krall"? He works for VeriSign not ICANN. He doesn't control or have any say over ICANN or IEFT policy making. If he said that to you, he shouldn't have.

I sincerely hope you do keep all these names, but any action you take or publicity you drum up needs to be on the basis of considered argument. You need to put a better argument together than "someone at VeriSign told me these names would never be deleted".

touchring 30th May 2006 05:29 AM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Agreed, until there is clear indication that the status of symbol domains would in no way compromised in the future, no one should say anything other than, the "status is currently uncertain".

blastfromthepast 1st June 2006 04:49 PM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by touchring
Agreed, until there is clear indication that the status of symbol domains would in no way compromised in the future, no one should say anything other than, the "status is currently uncertain".

Why are they uncertain? Because certain people have off the record said that they are opposed to them?

ctc 30th June 2006 05:06 AM

Re: Symbol Domains Under Threat!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyskip
Until then we need to draw attention to IDN's. I would suggest starting a letter writing campaign to news papers and your state officials. It is time to make some noise.

That doesnt work. Belive me.
What needs to be done if/when the time comes is to commence a legal battle.
in other words SUE THEM!


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