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النطاقات العربي Discussion on Arabic Domains

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Old 29th September 2009, 03:32 PM
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Translation of "Investment" (and some other doubts)

Hi everyone,

Can someone with more expertise on arabic language tell me the difference between these ones:


1) الإستثمار
2) الاستثمار
3) استثمر


from the notes on the main topic, the letter "لا" can lead to variations of the same word (because the use or not of a diacritic(?) at the bottom/top of it), which can lead to some words being more used than others and drive more traffic *today*.

for what i understood until now, this is a matter of simplification in writting that happens with many other languages.

however, i'm interested not only in what is more used today BUT what is the correct written form of the word, because when the use of IDNs become more widespread one (an end-user) will want to have the correct written word IMHO.

for what i understood also, there is a use of "The"(ال) that is common and makes many times the most used form of a word. I did not quite understand so far the use of it (why it is used; when it is used) but i can't expect to know bottom-up a language that i'm only becoming familiar with about 2 weeks

also, only today i notice that the "letter" "لا" is in fact a composition of two letters: the Alef "ا" and ??? "ل" (correct?). If we change the order of the two letters we get the "The" (!!!).

If this is true, then this is important to understand the rules because there is also the use of diacritics to express vowels. In particular, the "Hamz-aa", that is the small symbol/diacritic bellow the "لا" in the word 1) above, can be place bellow the Alef ("ا") and make the sound of an "I", or above the Alef and make the sound of an "A".

so, the words 1) and 2) are the same, where word 2) is more used and a simplification in writing. correct?


to wrap up all this, i think i beginning to undesrtand more or less the rules regarding the use of the "The" and diacritics (except the case where there are 3 versions for the same word: with no diacritics, diacritics above OR diacritics bellow. maybe different writing styles in different Arabic countries?).

but what about the word 3) ? It has an Alef in the beggining but it is not a "The".

It seems to be a very low used version of the word "Investment". However it shows up on wikipedia (http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%...85%D8%A7%D8%B1) and Google translates it to "Investment"or "Investing".

so what's the difference?


BTW, here is a nice site for a quick start on the arabic language: http://www.funwitharabic.com/alphabet.html


regards and TIA for the help,
tonecas
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Old 30th September 2009, 05:43 AM
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Re: Translation of "Investment" (and some other doubts)

In this case the correct forms are: "الاستثمار" and "استثمر", but "الإستثمار" is incorrect.

The grammer rules for the HAMZA ء أ إ ا are difficult to remember and are not well understood by most Arabs.

Check for example Google quote counts for the words "Land" and "Money (pl)" in the correct format: "أرض" and "أموال", and in the incorrect format: "ارض" and "اموال", you will find them comparable.

When it come to ا and أ I'm not sure if the argument for the "correct format" of the word is really relevant if almost half of the audience do not know which is the correct legal form.

If you have a good name, to be safe (and to secure traffic), try to hold both the أ and ا versions.
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Old 30th September 2009, 11:25 AM
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Re: Translation of "Investment" (and some other doubts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BandAid View Post
When it come to ا and أ I'm not sure if the argument for the "correct format" of the word is really relevant if almost half of the audience do not know which is the correct legal form.
hehehehe. that is a good point

didn't know that it was so confusing. for what i read about it, the HAMZA "puts" a vowel in the word and the position of it (above/bellow) makes the sound/vowel different. so i assumed it would be more clear the use of it. i mean, shouldn't it be clear that spelling an "A" or an "I" in the word is not the same and so get the correct form of the word?

but that's the beauty of this. different languages and cultures and very often what seems logical in one language it is not so straight forward in another language.

my language (portuguese) is well known to have complex grammar rules. maybe more than 90% of the native speakers do not understand it fully. but the doubts are of a different kind and not regarding the use of vowels/diacritics.


regarding the use of the versions of the word, i agree with you. grab the correct version and the most used one if they aren't the same. but not allways one can do that, specially because that way we are doubling our investment...

and as i see it, in the future, the generic terms/words will be more valued in the correct written version even if it they have less traffic (and things can change over time and the correct version get more traffic).

for instance, for my generation that went on the internet in the mid 90's, there was only US-ASCII for everything (domains, email,...) so many times we drop the diacritics in the words so that they wouldn't be scrambled.

even today i have that habit when, for instance, writing an email in an informal context. for instance, the word "não" that means "no" in english i write it many times as "nao".

so, i speculate that this what happens in other languages. many times it can be a matter of language simplification, other times it can be a result of the internet be so US-ASCII oriented for such a long time.

in any case, thanks for your input BandAid.

regards,
tonecas
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Old 1st October 2009, 10:44 PM
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Re: Translation of "Investment" (and some other doubts)

if you are looking for the most used word so its الاستثمار
BUT the prime terms in Arabic Language is الإستثمار

about me i think the Hamza is important in some words also when you are use it in idns because using it or not change all the meaning of the word

why you found the words without hamza more than hamza in google and all browser

thats just because the letter without hamza is in main keyboard and when you want to use the hamza you will click on your keyboard the letter and shift , so when people typing fast they dont use shift

but about me we are talking about idns so we are talking about Arabic IDN
why not use hamza if its the prime terms when you are registering arabic idn

other note
some words cant used with hamza , that mean there is different and important for it when its used in some words as a rules

not just hamza , there is other important rules

~ = Shada

علم flag
علّم teach
the shada change the meaning of the word

other example

عمان oman
عمّان Amman
the shada change the meaning of word

other rules about hamza below or above أ إ
the letter vocable change 100%

many thanks
Basel
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Old 2nd October 2009, 01:35 AM
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Re: Translation of "Investment" (and some other doubts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by basel View Post
if you are looking for the most used word so its الاستثمار
BUT the prime terms in Arabic Language is الإستثمار
I would rather have the most used term than the so called prime term.

imo use determines worth.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 05:29 PM
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Re: Translation of "Investment" (and some other doubts)

Thanks for your input basel.

I agree one should grab the prime/correct version of the word. If possible, grab the most used one and the prime version like BandAid said so that you can get all the traffic. But if you have to opt i would choose the correct version.

The reason i prefer the prime version it's because things can change over time. Probably, the incorrect versions used today can be less used in the future as IDN matures and more content in the native languages appears on the web.

But most importantly, an end-user will allways go after the correct version. It's a question of image/brand. If i can have a domain in my language i want it to be written correctly. Also, the incorrect versions of a word can be "resolved" to the correct versions (and vice-versa) when a user makes a search in a search engine. Google, Yahoo and others are more and more clever in figuring out synonyms and typos.

However i have a doubt regarding the term "الإستثمار". You said it is the prime term but BandAid said it is an incorrect version.


regards,
tonecas
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Old 2nd October 2009, 05:37 PM
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Re: Translation of "Investment" (and some other doubts)

Hi gammascalper,

Quote:
Originally Posted by gammascalper View Post
I would rather have the most used term than the so called prime term.

imo use determines worth.
the problem i see is: the use can change, the prime word can't.

one as to think that we are still in IDN infancy, possibly passing now to puberty

as IDN issues are solved and more and more content in differente languages goes to the web, trends in word use can change. Even if they don't change, a correct written word is allways more appealing to an end-user imho.

notice that i'm not aggainst going also after the most used version. just my budget is limited and there are many languages to go after so i have to choose, considering that i'm investing for the long term

regards,
tonecas
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