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Old 7th November 2009, 04:06 AM
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IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

With the upcoming IDN.IDN, I am a bit confused as to what will happen to current IDN.com, IDN.net, etc. that we all own.

If we currently own an IDN.com, will we automatically get the IDN.IDN in that countries language or do we have to try & reg the IDN.IDN which everyone else will be trying to get it as well?

Eg. someone already owns 中国.com, will they automatically get 中国.中国?

Will this make our IDN.com worth more or worth less now that IDN.IDN is being implemented?
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Old 7th November 2009, 04:43 AM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

The current news from ICANN shows that the .com will be awarded and resolve to the .com in the foreign script -- to the current .com holder.

As far as IDN.IDNcctlds, you will need to reg them seperately if you can. There are citizenship laws ect. for regging them which may be different for each country. In Russia for example, you will need an ID.
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Old 7th November 2009, 06:22 AM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

A funny thing about this is the possibility that in some languages, the .net might become more popular than the .com. No?
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Old 7th November 2009, 06:58 AM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

I think it is a possibility too jose. Say for chinese, I don't particularly like .gongsi. It seems to narrow and formalised for a personal/video/blog type website. I'm sure the pecking order will remain for a long time though. Only time will tell!
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Old 7th November 2009, 07:23 AM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnnames View Post
I think it is a possibility too jose. Say for chinese, I don't particularly like .gongsi. It seems to narrow and formalised for a personal/video/blog type website. I'm sure the pecking order will remain for a long time though. Only time will tell!
But if we don't - as it seems - know which one will be the most popular extension, how can we valuate the .com above all other extensions?!
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Old 7th November 2009, 08:31 AM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

Well not everybody shares the view that you and I have, thats why.
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Old 7th November 2009, 11:07 AM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

I think ICANN has said they are going to leave a lot of the decisions to the registrars.

They have "approved" internationalizing after the dot, but I don't think they are going to get into the politics.

Last edited by bwhhisc; 7th November 2009 at 11:15 AM..
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Old 7th November 2009, 11:29 AM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwhhisc View Post
I think ICANN has said they are going to leave a lot of the decisions to the registrars.

They have "approved" internationalizing after the dot, but I don't think they are going to get into the politics.
Even if they said that they mean Registeries. Still it just goes to show, if somebody who follows as closely as you can be put off the scent, then you can image how confused your average half-wit domainer is feeling.
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Old 7th November 2009, 01:03 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

IDN.中国 is for IDN.CN

IDN.IDN is not have special advantage.

type quick? not to think so.

.中国 is not brand, .com .cn is brand.

IDN.中国 is for IDN.CN not for IDN.COM
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Old 7th November 2009, 05:55 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sakillll View Post
IDN.中国 is for IDN.CN

IDN.IDN is not have special advantage.

type quick? not to think so.

.中国 is not brand, .com .cn is brand.

IDN.中国 is for IDN.CN not for IDN.COM
I am lost. So? That means...
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Old 8th November 2009, 07:53 AM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jose View Post
But if we don't - as it seems - know which one will be the most popular extension, how can we valuate the .com above all other extensions?!
Because people will them be typing Google.日本, Amazon.日本 ...

But then, they would have to use ascii as well!

Yes, I know, that's why the dreamy idn milestone would be the day I see:

グーグル.日本 (Google.jp... what's the .com for Japanese anyway?)

(I know I am replying to myself)
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Old 8th November 2009, 01:59 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phio View Post
The current news from ICANN shows that the .com will be awarded and resolve to the .com in the foreign script -- to the current .com holder.
This thread has galvanised me to start thinking about idn gtlds. I will take .com and .公司 (chinese for com) as an example. Here are some thoughts of possible scenarios:

① .com and .公司 could be totally separate. Verisign would continue to be the registry for .com and CNNIC would be the registry for .公司 This would mean that all current chinese.com registrants who also wanted chinese.公司 would need to register it with CNNIC
② Any registrant that has an existing chinese.com would automatically get chinese.公司 once 公司 is in the ICANN root servers. That implies to me that there would be chinese.com in the Verisign Registry and chinese.公司 in the CNNIC Registry. What of subsequent registrations? If chinese.com is registered in Verisign would chinese.公司 be automatically registered in CNNIC
③ Or maybe it will be a simple substitution as happens with punycode and unicode. i.e. chinese.公司 maps to chinese.com This means that there would only be the entry in the Verisign Registry.

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Old 8th November 2009, 02:18 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andre View Post
① .com and .公司 could be totally separate. Verisign would continue to be the registry for .com and CNNIC would be the registry for .公司 This would mean that all current chinese.com registrants who also wanted chinese.公司 would need to register it with CNNIC

This is muddled thinking CNNIC isn't the registry in the ICANN root so it cannot continue to be the registry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andre View Post
② Any registrant that has an existing chinese.com would automatically get chinese.公司 once 公司 is in the ICANN root servers. That implies to me that there would be chinese.com in the Verisign Registry and chinese.公司 in the CNNIC Registry. What of subsequent registrations? If chinese.com is registered in Verisign would chinese.公司 be automatically registered in CNNIC
This is so muddled I am not sure if I even want to try to figure it out. Nobody is going to get new registrations automatically especially not in another registry, which would be administratively unworkable. All that is going to happen is that equivalent of dot com are going to be aliased to dot com. If that is too much for you to get your head around think of it as an automatic redirection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andre View Post
③ Or maybe it will be a simple substitution as happens with punycode and unicode. i.e. chinese.公司 maps to chinese.com This means that there would only be the entry in the Verisign Registry.
There is an essential confusion here. Unicode registration do not exist period. The only actual registration are Punycode. But yes for once you have got something right. There will only be one registration, and for anything meaningful that happened a long time ago. The dot CN domains were bundled with their IDN equivalent. The same thing has effectively happened with dot Com except nobody said so at the time.
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Old 8th November 2009, 03:26 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck View Post
There is an essential confusion here. Unicode registration do not exist period. The only actual registration are Punycode. But yes for once you have got something right. There will only be one registration, and for anything meaningful that happened a long time ago. The dot CN domains were bundled with their IDN equivalent. The same thing has effectively happened with dot Com except nobody said so at the time.
Yes, I do know that registrations are Punycode :-)

And, Yes, I do know that when one registers a .cn one also automatically gets .中国 and .中國 :-)

So what I gather from your explanation is that when .公司 exists in the ICANN world then if one has a chinese.com one will also have chinese.公司 as a bundle. This chinese bundle will exist in the Verisign Registry. I assume that one will only get the language bundle for the language which one has tagged the registration ?

An alternate scenario is that one gets .com in all the scripts that are implemented. This would lead to instant internationalisation of millions of domain names :-)

Outside of the ICANN world, .公司 and 网络 already exist in the China MII root. If one uses cesidianroot.net then 北京大学.公司 北京大学.网络 and 北京大学.中国 already work

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Old 8th November 2009, 04:16 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andre View Post

An alternate scenario is that one gets .com in all the scripts that are implemented. This would lead to instant internationalisation of millions of domain names :-)
That would b the only scenario
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Old 8th November 2009, 04:34 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

No, tags are not registered. Tags are only used to check that you are not breaking an rules that are implemented for individual scripts. They are not recorded. After registration tags are meaningless, they no longer exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andre View Post
Yes, I do know that registrations are Punycode :-)

And, Yes, I do know that when one registers a .cn one also automatically gets .中国 and .中國 :-)

So what I gather from your explanation is that when .公司 exists in the ICANN world then if one has a chinese.com one will also have chinese.公司 as a bundle. This chinese bundle will exist in the Verisign Registry. I assume that one will only get the language bundle for the language which one has tagged the registration ?

An alternate scenario is that one gets .com in all the scripts that are implemented. This would lead to instant internationalisation of millions of domain names :-)

Outside of the ICANN world, .公司 and 网络 already exist in the China MII root. If one uses cesidianroot.net then 北京大学.公司 北京大学.网络 and 北京大学.中国 already work

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Old 8th November 2009, 04:38 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

China is not the only one to set up alternative roots. Con men from here to Shanghai have done the same. There is simply a procedure being developed for allocation of TLDs in the ICANN root. Prior usage in some parallel universe is not even a consideration.
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Old 8th November 2009, 09:07 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andre View Post
Yes, I do know that registrations are Punycode :-)

And, Yes, I do know that when one registers a .cn one also automatically gets .中国 and .中國 :-)
Happy you understand that now i.e. that there is no direct relationship between .com or .net owned by Verisign and .cn owned by CNNIC (and that IDN.IDN ccTLD just relates to .cn getting both .中国 and .中國 put into the international root).

Quote:
Originally Posted by andre View Post
So what I gather from your explanation is that when .公司 exists in the ICANN world then if one has a chinese.com one will also have chinese.公司 as a bundle. This chinese bundle will exist in the Verisign Registry. I assume that one will only get the language bundle for the language which one has tagged the registration ?
At the moment as far as I know, what exactly will be used for gIDN Chinese for .com, has not yet been decided (so no, .公司 doesn't exist in the ICANN world yet - it exists within / inside China as a hack the CNNIC registrar does only, for use as a 2nd level domain - not as a TLD).
Point is, there is no 100% guarentee that .公司 will ever exist inside the ICANN world yet i.e. the TLD world (read on and you will understand this point more).

Quote:
Originally Posted by andre View Post
An alternate scenario is that one gets .com in all the scripts that are implemented. This would lead to instant internationalisation of millions of domain names :-)
Yes, at the moment we all assume that the present IDN.com holders will be given IDN.gIDN (global) i.e. various gIDN extensions will exist (in many languages) for .com and .net etc. and they will all be applied / given to existing IDN.com and IDN.net etc. holders (for the gTLDs that go IDN.gIDN).
The point that Rubber Duck made is that Verisign apparently do not keep the language tags after registration (therefore this leaves them two options):-
a) based on the punycode charts decide if the IDN is Chinese, Japanese, Hindi, Russian etc. and give it only ONE gIDN option.
b) give people the ability to type any one of the several gIDN extensions after the dot, that they come up within the numerous languages for gTLD for .com or .net etc. (which actually means .com would then have many language options for ALL IDNs. that would all work).

It is not clear yet, which approach Verisign and ICANN will take for this (I would expect "b" is more likely to be the option).

Quote:
Originally Posted by andre View Post
Outside of the ICANN world, .公司 and 网络 already exist in the China MII root. If one uses cesidianroot.net then 北京大学.公司 北京大学.网络 and 北京大学.中国 already work
You are confusing TLD (top level domains) and 2nd level domains (i.e. those that are sub-domains of a ccTLD).
At the moment .公司 and .网络 DO NOT exist as standalone in China (what exists is .公司.中国, .com.cn, .网络.中国 and .net.cn)
Please Note: Within China, the .net.cn and .com.cn are 2nd level (tier 2) domains or IDNs ONLY (i.e. not ccTLD or gTLD). See CNNIC's clarification in either Chinese version http://cnnic.cn/html/Dir/2003/11/28/1534.htm or English version http://cnnic.cn/html/Dir/2007/06/04/4628.htm

My understanding is that ONLY the IDN ccTLDs (e.g. .cn or .kr etc.) and later the IDN gTLD, will ever go into the real international root (i.e. the root overseen by ICANN is for TLD / Top Level Domains ONLY) and thereby the .net.cn and .com.cn hack, will still have to be implimented by CNNIC registrar themselves, for the .net and .com 2nd level domains to be able to work (and they will still only work most likely inside China's own boarders)
i.e. .公司.中国 and .网络.中国 after IDN.IDN ccTLD will not exist in the international root / ICANN system and will still NOT resolve, outside of China's own boarders.

The distinction here is that 2nd level domains and IDNs are run by the registrar themselves (e.g. by CNNIC or TWNIC etc.) and only the TLD will ever be in the international root / ICANN system (i.e. ccTLD or gTLD).

==========
The big question that still remains of course, is who has the claim to the extension .网络 and .公司 - is it CNNIC as they used these Chinese characters first (even though was ONLY for their 2nd level domain extensions) or is it Verisign as people already think that these Chinese characters, are the Chinese for their brands .com and .net.
The final answer to this, is yet to made or announced (and we do not even publicly know what Verisign wants to use for Chinese for the gIDN for .com and .net, what CNNIC's position on their rights or claims to .网络 and .公司 are in terms of use for a possible future gTLD or what ICANN's opinion on this will be (if their is any conflict in both these two registrars desires exists).

In here, most of us hope that China / CNNIC doesn't make any claims to these two IDN extensions for future possible gTLD use (that CNNIC just applys the hack for 2nd level domains within China only) and thereby Versign can use .网络 and .公司 as the Chinese gIDN for .com and net, if they choose to - and most people here hope this is the Chinese characters they will choose for .com and .net IDN.gIDN).
Time will tell what actually what happens of course...

I hope this makes things a little clearer. as to the status of how things are presently...

Cheers, Asiaplay

PS: I also hope my own understanding of what goes into the international root as only being TLD is correct - lol
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Old 8th November 2009, 10:24 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

I am afraid you write too much and consequently much of it is garbage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaplay View Post
a) based on the punycode charts decide if the IDN is Chinese, Japanese, Hindi, Russian etc. and give it only ONE gIDN option.
This conclusion is untenable as it ignores the distinction between language and script. Beside what we are talking about is the aliasing of TLDs. They are all inevitably Latin but no language can be determined because few of them are dictionary terms. There is of course no mechanism to determine the language or script of individual domains, or to allocate them, or to find a way of charging them. It has been shown that individual redirection via C-Names is totally unworkable and DNames would never be able to differentiate either between scripts at the second level or indeed between those that have subscribed and those that have not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaplay View Post
You are confusing TLD (top level domains) and 2nd level domains (i.e. those that are sub-domains of a ccTLD).
At the moment .公司 and .网络 DO NOT exist as standalone in China (what exists is .公司.中国, .com.cn, .网络.中国 and .net.cn)
Please Note: Within China, the .net.cn and .com.cn are 2nd level (tier 2) domains or IDNs ONLY (i.e. not ccTLD or gTLD). See CNNIC's clarification in either Chinese version http://cnnic.cn/html/Dir/2003/11/28/1534.htm or English version http://cnnic.cn/html/Dir/2007/06/04/4628.htm

My understanding is that ONLY the IDN ccTLDs (e.g. .cn or .kr etc.) and later the IDN gTLD, will ever go into the real international root (i.e. the root overseen by ICANN is for TLD / Top Level Domains ONLY) and thereby the .net.cn and .com.cn hack, will still have to be implimented by CNNIC registrar themselves, for the .net and .com 2nd level domains to be able to work (and they will still only work most likely inside China's own boarders)
i.e. .公司.中国 and .网络.中国 after IDN.IDN ccTLD will not exist in the international root / ICANN system and will still NOT resolve, outside of China's own boarders.

The distinction here is that 2nd level domains and IDNs are run by the registrar themselves (e.g. by CNNIC or TWNIC etc.) and only the TLD will ever be in the international root / ICANN system (i.e. ccTLD or gTLD).
I am sorry but you neglect the obvious fact that China will either remove the ISP hack or it will not. In order for ICANN delegated IDN to work it must remove it. For the these existing second level aliases to work it must retain it. Is it really going to fore go the benefit of ICANN delegation of 中国 for this nonsense? What a dilemna? NOT!
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Old 9th November 2009, 02:44 AM
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Re: IDN.IDN - What happens to IDN.com, etc.

Hi RD,

Ok - thanks for clearing up that it will be option "b)" - thats the better approach for us all anyway

In regards to the hack - why can't China keep a hack for their 2nd level domain / IDN only, within their own boarders (they can can't they)?
i.e. only .cn, 中国 and .中國 work in the international root.

Reason I ask, is that I can see some potential legal issues for them in just dropping the ability for .com.cn and .net.cn to use Chinese characters at all...

Cheers - Asiaplay
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