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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 15th April 2011, 08:45 PM
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love to love idn.bz but ....

For my Thai name, อีเมล์.com = email.com, it says google results are:

"Google.com search results=7.020.000"

But in the graphic it shows below that, its clearly 108 million.

And then it says this:

----
Reverse translation=E - mail
Google search results for E - mail=183
-----

ie. the reverse translation has the extra spaces in, so the google search results for the reverse translation are completely wrong.

And then for Google Trends, it just says "No".

So the domain gets a score of 38. Why calculate a score based upon wrong data + wrong data + wrong data?

I'm completely aware writing an auto-tool to evaluate a domain's worth is entirely impossible, just wondering why idn.bz can't even read something as simple as the google search results with any accuracy?

Can you take a look at that at least Jose? Its just not right. I've no idea where you get the 7M number from. Its not printed anywhere on the page you display, and its not even close, so its not a cacheing issue.

And no, before you ask, I don't think its a 90+ domain, not at all. But then again, even for my best Thai domains, like [music].com idn.bz cocks them up

Peace. I don't even know why you produce this tool to be honest, trying to create a tool that produces a domains' worth based on (a) bad data + (b) ever changing layout of web pages + (c) bugged code is not my idea of fun ;-)

Last edited by domainguru; 15th April 2011 at 08:47 PM..
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Old 15th April 2011, 09:00 PM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by domainguru View Post
Peace. I don't even know why you produce this tool to be honest, trying to create a tool that produces a domains' worth based on (a) bad data + (b) ever changing layout of web pages + (c) bugged code is not my idea of fun ;-)
Vanity.
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Old 15th April 2011, 09:05 PM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

are you visiting your in-laws this weekend or what ?
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Old 15th April 2011, 09:05 PM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by blastfromthepast View Post
Vanity.
Hey, he's a good looking guy. If anyone has the right to be vain, it has to be Jose.

Last edited by domainguru; 15th April 2011 at 09:06 PM..
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Old 18th April 2011, 02:54 AM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Hello there. Sorry for the delay on the reply, but I was in week-end mode when this was posted.

domainguru: I am sorry if my *FREE* tool doesn't satisfy you. I certainly understand why you're disappointed given the huge amount of money you pay every month for the subscription.

Having said that, I certainly welcome and THANK all for the feedback!

About Google trends: I am really glad you did complain, because, due to some recent server issues, the function that was fetching the Google trends graphic was not working! It is fixed now.

About the 7.020.000 results instead of 10x times more: there are thousands of coders complaining about that same issue everywhere. Let me explain this in details: you can scrap Google.com for the "results" number, but this is illegal and against Google TOS and the server will get a ban in no time. The correct way to do this is to use Google's search API. Now the problem is that the Google search API often gives very different results from what is seen on the Google main page. Just do some search around for something like Google+search+API+results+incorrect and you'll see what I mean. If you find a way out of this I would be very glad to know about it!

About the Reverse translation=E - mail Again please complain directly with Google not me. Your term translates as "e-mail" AND the Google's thai translation for "e-mail" is "E - mail" and thus, it doesn't match "e-mail" back and this mens your term is not the best one. Google is wrong, I know, and I could try to bend the result by removing the spaces and put all in lower case, but I prefer not to do so, because I would inadvertently change all other results as well. I prefer to let the Google pure result intact and let time take its course. I am sure Google will improve with time and its a much better strategy than to be bending this results to fit one or other term.

It is important to acknowledge idn.bz relies a lot on Google. Google is the best there is, but Google is not perfect.
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Last edited by jose; 18th April 2011 at 02:56 AM..
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Old 18th April 2011, 08:03 PM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

26. How do I make queries in languages other than English?

The APIs still do not always return complete results for Chinese, Japanese, and Korean; we are working to remedy this issue.

http://code.google.com/apis/soapsearch/api_faq.html

Last edited by blastfromthepast; 18th April 2011 at 08:04 PM..
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Old 19th April 2011, 02:41 AM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Google SOAP Search API is very, very old and has even be deprecated.

I use the AJAX Search API (ajax.googleapis.com)
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Old 19th April 2011, 02:16 PM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jose View Post
Hello there. Sorry for the delay on the reply, but I was in week-end mode when this was posted.

domainguru: I am sorry if my *FREE* tool doesn't satisfy you. I certainly understand why you're disappointed given the huge amount of money you pay every month for the subscription.

Having said that, I certainly welcome and THANK all for the feedback!

About Google trends: I am really glad you did complain, because, due to some recent server issues, the function that was fetching the Google trends graphic was not working! It is fixed now.

About the 7.020.000 results instead of 10x times more: there are thousands of coders complaining about that same issue everywhere. Let me explain this in details: you can scrap Google.com for the "results" number, but this is illegal and against Google TOS and the server will get a ban in no time. The correct way to do this is to use Google's search API. Now the problem is that the Google search API often gives very different results from what is seen on the Google main page. Just do some search around for something like Google+search+API+results+incorrect and you'll see what I mean. If you find a way out of this I would be very glad to know about it!

About the Reverse translation=E - mail Again please complain directly with Google not me. Your term translates as "e-mail" AND the Google's thai translation for "e-mail" is "E - mail" and thus, it doesn't match "e-mail" back and this mens your term is not the best one. Google is wrong, I know, and I could try to bend the result by removing the spaces and put all in lower case, but I prefer not to do so, because I would inadvertently change all other results as well. I prefer to let the Google pure result intact and let time take its course. I am sure Google will improve with time and its a much better strategy than to be bending this results to fit one or other term.

It is important to acknowledge idn.bz relies a lot on Google. Google is the best there is, but Google is not perfect.
Regardless of the free access issue, a tool is either worth using or it isn't. I have a right to make my comment on that issue.

I totally agree you are relying on Google. That is the basic issue. You are tied to Google and its data. And its often rubbish. For Thai translations for example, they are often terrible, just plain wrong. Google translate says "sell tickets" is actually "prostitute".

And like you say, the search API doesn't return the correct number of results. So it makes you look foolish when you print the search page beneath the API results !!

So given the search results are wrong, translations are often terrible, I'm wondering what the point of having Thai there at all ....

But hey, its your toy, its free, in the end you can do whatever you like with it. Perhaps one day it will work well.
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Old 19th April 2011, 03:58 PM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

As long as the results in the idn.bz db are consistently applied to the incorrect data it should be ok for relative numbers..as long as the data itself is consistently incorrect that is . The moment that the google SE api data is changed the algorithm should be changed, I guess you should get some normalisation figures to transform the weight of SERP-figures.

Say a set of 100 terms which you run every week with a cronjob, any large deviation of the mean should signal a google db transition and it should give you a way to use the old data .

Thanks for all the work that has gone into this tool, it is appreciated.

Last edited by bramiozo; 19th April 2011 at 04:00 PM..
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Old 19th April 2011, 09:25 PM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Its interesting, but it seems the Google search results being returned are compete bunken. But ... the Yahoo search results are MUCH MORE accurate. For this name:

http://idn.bz/rate.php?keyword=%E0%B8%9E&language=

Google.com search results=12.100.000
Yahoo.com search results=270.000.000

But when you view in Google itself, the results are 272M i.e. the Yahoo results.

So it seems to me at least in the short term, the Yahoo API results are correct (for Google), the Google API results are nowhere near correct (even for Google).

Of course this is likely to change in a week, such is the nature of relying on other web services to run a web service.

The fact the page says the translation is:

English translation= Wed.
Reverse translation=แต่งงาน

Both of which are incorrect, is obviously neither here nor there. We all have to accept translations online are often bogus but we rely on them anyway to present supposedly meaningful figures ....

How the heck can you get from a single letter to "Wednesday" and then back to "marriage" (แต่งงาน)? I know, I know, ask Google. I would, except they don't have an office in Thailand. Shows doesn't it.

Last edited by domainguru; 19th April 2011 at 09:27 PM..
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Old 19th April 2011, 10:05 PM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bramiozo View Post

Thanks for all the work that has gone into this tool, it is appreciated.
Ditto.
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Old 19th April 2011, 11:01 PM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by domainguru View Post
How the heck can you get from a single letter to "Wednesday" and then back to "marriage" (แต่งงาน)? I know, I know, ask Google. I would, except they don't have an office in Thailand. Shows doesn't it.
Just go to Google translate web page and translate the non-English term to English. Then, use what you get to translate it from English back to its original language. Finally, compare both. That's what idn.bz does and it works most of the times, nailing if a term is the main term or not.
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Old 19th April 2011, 11:03 PM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Thanks Mark and Bram.
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Old 20th April 2011, 01:59 AM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jose View Post
Just go to Google translate web page and translate the non-English term to English. Then, use what you get to translate it from English back to its original language. Finally, compare both. That's what idn.bz does and it works most of the times, nailing if a term is the main term or not.
I wasn't asking for a physical description of what your system does Jose, lol

I have actually published a domain web service that people paid hundreds of dollars per month to use. We knew how to publish great data.

What I am saying is the translation both ways is total crap. So what is crap data worth?

One letter (Thai) -> Wednesday (English) -> Marriage (Thai).

I can't comment on other languages. I can comment on Thai. Its a joke and useless.
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Old 20th April 2011, 02:19 AM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by domainguru View Post
We knew how to publish great data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by domainguru View Post
Its a joke and useless.

I am getting tired of this. If you know how to do it better, better than idn.bz, with better data than Google itself(!), either:

- do a better idn.bz and share it with everyone
- use your own system and leave me alone

But, in the end, I might follow your suggestion and take idn.bz offline once and for all.
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Last edited by jose; 20th April 2011 at 02:20 AM..
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Old 20th April 2011, 02:34 AM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jose View Post
I am getting tired of this. If you know how to do it better, better than idn.bz, with better data than Google itself(!), either:

- do a better idn.bz and share it with everyone
- use your own system and leave me alone

But, in the end, I might follow your suggestion and take idn.bz offline once and for all.
I have no interest in creating a free service that doesn't work for the names I am interested in. I said in my first post it was an impossible task. Hence I didn't attempt it!

I have been consistent. When that other member came online and said he could create an automated domain valuation system, I laughed and told him in public he was wasting his time. He has produced nothing.

Why try to produce the impossible, I have no idea ....

You are an amazing guy with so many ideas, but it just seems like a shotgun firing off randomly ....

In the end, though, all I have said is I have found the tool useless for my Thai domains. That doesn't mean (a) its useless for other languages and (b) other people may find it people for their Thai domains.

Last edited by domainguru; 20th April 2011 at 02:35 AM..
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Old 20th April 2011, 08:18 AM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

As for the problem in the initial post, I think removing spaces and lowercasing the english translations should not create problems...however in this case it wouldn't solve the issue either, that's google's db being fubar at some points. C'est la vie, it's much better than nothing.

Suggestion: 1: [xx] --> [en], 2: [en] --> [xx], if in 2 [en]==[xx] after concatenating, and trimming both the reserved translation probably failed. Of course there are more cases like this but if you pick them off one at a time whenever they pop-up it shouldn't be that much effort.
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Old 20th April 2011, 03:13 PM
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Re: love to love idn.bz but ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bramiozo View Post
As for the problem in the initial post, I think removing spaces and lowercasing the english translations should not create problems...
It might. You see, sometimes people use multiple keyword terms with spaces, removing the spaces might cause problem when translating and matching them back.

Also, Google translates to first upper case when a proper name or geo name.

I will, however, run some tests on this. It might be possible.
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