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Old 6th September 2011, 09:28 AM
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Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Skola.me

Registrar: Moniker.com
Expiration Date: 7/19/2012
Domain Age: 3+ Years

2011 Parking: $13.25 USD (AdSense For Domains) (Screenshot)

Description: Skola means "School" in Montenegrin. I'm not familiar with the Montenegrin internet, however it appears that the traffic is type-in as opposed to being a derivative of an existing developed website.

BIN: $75 (PayPal Masspay / PayPal Gift)

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Old 7th September 2011, 10:20 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Reduced BIN: $69 (PayPal Masspay / PayPal Gift)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
Skola.me

Registrar: Moniker.com
Expiration Date: 7/19/2012
Domain Age: 3+ Years

2011 Parking: $13.25 USD (AdSense For Domains) (Screenshot)

Description: Skola means "School" in Montenegrin. I'm not familiar with the Montenegrin internet, however it appears that the traffic is type-in as opposed to being a derivative of an existing developed website.

BIN: $75 (PayPal Masspay / PayPal Gift)

Multi-Venue Listing
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Old 9th September 2011, 07:10 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
Description: Skola means "School" in Montenegrin. I'm not familiar with the Montenegrin internet, however it appears that the traffic is type-in as opposed to being a derivative of an existing developed website.
Škola = School in Montenegrin.
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Old 9th September 2011, 07:24 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Quote:
Originally Posted by blastfromthepast View Post
Škola = School in Montenegrin.
Perhaps you should explain to this numpty that the squiggle is not an accent but indicates a totally separate letter of the alphabet.

In other words it is as if he spelled School as Zchool.
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Old 9th September 2011, 03:11 PM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Reduced BIN: $49 (PayPal Masspay / PayPal Gift)

Thanks for the input guys, but this is an ASCII domain, as in "mojaskola.me", a developed website.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blastfromthepast View Post
Škola = School in Montenegrin.
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Old 9th September 2011, 07:09 PM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

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Originally Posted by Rubber Duck View Post
Perhaps you should explain to this numpty that the squiggle is not an accent but indicates a totally separate letter of the alphabet.
Correct.
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Old 9th September 2011, 07:49 PM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

I'm a little confused. Did I list this domain in the wrong section? The domain is not an IDN, it's the ASCII version of the word Skola.me. I had assumed this part of the forum was for non-IDN type sale listings.
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Old 9th September 2011, 10:38 PM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
I'm a little confused. Did I list this domain in the wrong section? The domain is not an IDN, it's the ASCII version of the word Skola.me. I had assumed this part of the forum was for non-IDN type sale listings.
I am sure that all ASCII speaking Montenegran domainers will be queuing up.
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Old 10th September 2011, 08:01 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck View Post
I am sure that all ASCII speaking Montenegran domainers will be queuing up.
I live in Poland, and based on the research I've done the IDN situation in Montenegro is the same as it is here. The diacritic free ASCII convert domain is usually developed, and then the IDN is 301 redirected back to the main ASCII domain to prevent traffic bleed. I know the large Serbian Montenegro population uses Serbian Cyrillic, however even amongst these people the domain of choice is the non-IDN ASCII convert (with IDN redirects in place).

I don't make the rules of use for these domains, but I certainly invest according to them. I doubt the IDN + ASCII domain pairing phenomenon for Latin based languages will ever die out, as it's just smart use unless you want to hemorrhage traffic. The reason why most Latin based IDN domain investors don't invest in the ASCII convert + the IDN is because it's insanely expensive to do so. For example the ASCII domain Krakow.com is probably a $500,000+ domain (Frank Schilling owns it), whereas the Polish IDN Kraków.com is probably a 5 figure domain at the most (the ASCII owner would be begging the IDN owner to develop because traffic bleed will be coming mostly from the IDN on a 10 to 1 basis). I know this because I started out developing Polish ASCII and IDN domains, however now I only develop the ASCII convert and simply redirect the IDN to the main domain. My days of experiencing traffic bleed are now over.

Smart Latin IDN investors buy the ASCII converts if they can, otherwise you're sitting on only 50% of the actual working mechanics of such a web property / address system. I always thought the 2 Latin domains (ASCII convert + IDN) should be sold together as a pair at the registry level, that is far more logical than the current system of dumping everything on to the market and letting people sort it out for themselves. Seems like 90% of domain investors here in 2011 still haven't gotten around to even remotely understanding this issue, let alone investing according to it. Those 10% that "get it" walk away with more traffic at the end of the day, and ultimately this whole "game" is all about the traffic (i.e. domains actually being put to use as opposed to being blindly regarded or thought of strictly in terms of being an investment commodity).

I should also point out that this Latin ASCII convert vs IDN issue was regulated by Poles, Montenegrins, Germans, etc. They set the use standard themselves, it wasn't forced upon them by ASCII restricted Americans, Canadians, Brits, etc. 98% of the Polish webmasters that I know would welcome traffic to their web property from other parts of the Latin alphabet driven world (and beyond), and thus the national internet using consensus seems to have sacrificed pure 100% language integrity for "international" accommodation. Pair both the ASCII convert + IDN together and you've got the best of both worlds.
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Old 10th September 2011, 09:46 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

A Polish example of what I'm discussing above would be the following:

bron.pl - Developed (Internet Market Size: 7 Billion)
broń.pl - 301 Redirected To The ASCII Convert (Internet Market Size: 38 Million)

The owner of this company is Polish, so as I pointed out above pure language integrity is being sacrificed for international accommodation and ultimately more traffic. Why restrict yourself to a market of 38 million people when you can market yourself to the entire world (the world being those that don't understand how to type "ń" into their keyboard). The whole point of the internet is global information exchange, take that driving force or thirst for all information away and people would go back to only needing a telephone.

The Polish government also uses the ASCII converts for all it's city .pl domains, and then 301 redirects the IDN.pl (e.g. Krakow.pl vs Kraków.pl). Why? Again because they want to be accessible to the whole world, which is also why most of these portals have alternate language versions. The IDN die-hards don't like hearing this sort of thing for some reason, but it is what it is. Write a Polish senator and ask him why it's mandated that all Polish government run or affiliated websites must have their main domain hosted on the ASCII convert. I'm sure the mandate is print accessible to the public, and I'm almost certain it was set solely due to addressing "broader access" issues). It's 2011, Poland isn't going to appease die-hard IDN investors in exchange for acting like a digital North Korea.

You know this whole IDN vs ASCII thing is a nonsense point of view. That's toxic strategy to any real self sustaining self employed domain investor, and you'll loose a lot of money over it. The narrow path that doesn't lead to destruction is the path that incorporates the real world, and the real world at least in Europe is a world of ASCII converts capped and laced with the language pure IDN. Like I said, I don't make the rules but I do invest according to them. There is no room for dogma or politics when it comes to picking one investment over another, or mixing the two together.
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Old 10th September 2011, 09:53 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Frankly, these issues always kept me away from Latin IDN.

There are even mor obvious issues keeping me away from dot ME. I am not big on pump and dump extensions.
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Old 10th September 2011, 09:56 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
A Polish example of what I'm discussing above would be the following:

bron.pl - Developed (Internet Market Size: 7 Billion)
broń.pl - 301 Redirected To The ASCII Convert (Internet Market Size: 38 Million)

The owner of this company is Polish, so as I pointed out above pure language integrity is being sacrificed for international accommodation and ultimately more traffic. Why restrict yourself to a market of 38 million people when you can market yourself to the entire world (the world being those that don't understand how to type "ń" into their keyboard).
If he wanted Inernational Markets, then he should have got the dot com!
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Old 10th September 2011, 10:26 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck View Post
Frankly, these issues always kept me away from Latin IDN.

There are even mor obvious issues keeping me away from dot ME. I am not big on pump and dump extensions.
That makes sense, and I fully understand it. There is however a perfect cure, but it's just slightly more tedious to acquire.
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Old 10th September 2011, 10:40 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

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If he wanted Inernational Markets, then he should have got the dot com!
Not likely. It's a domestic market trumps international market sort of thing. It's also a point of reference labeling tool. His sales are probably 90% domestic and 10% international (perhaps even selling to Poles living abroad). Unless his website were to be written purely in English without a Polish language version would he then likely opt for a .com. What ".pl" says to me is that "I'm in Poland or heavily affiliated with Poland", not "I only want to be accessible to Poles." It's a point of reference about the web presence that both a domestic and international visitor can extract valuable information from.
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Old 10th September 2011, 11:43 PM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Does it matter if Krakow.pl redirects to Kraków.pl or Kraków.pl redirects to Krakow.pl?

Yes.

1) If Krakow.pl is the destination for Kraków.pl, then it is a spelling mistake.

2) If Kraków.pl is the destination, then people's spelling mistake (or lack of competence in typing Polish) is corrected.

Clearly, the (2) is the preferable choice.

The only reason we see (1) is because sites on ascii domains are already established and developed.

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Old 11th September 2011, 06:30 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Quote:
Originally Posted by blastfromthepast View Post
Does it matter if Krakow.pl redirects to Kraków.pl or Kraków.pl redirects to Krakow.pl?

Yes.

1) If Krakow.pl is the destination for Kraków.pl, then it is a spelling mistake.

2) If Kraków.pl is the destination, then people's spelling mistake (or lack of competence in typing Polish) is corrected.

Clearly, the (2) is the preferable choice.

The only reason we see (1) is because sites on ascii domains are already established and developed.
The IDN domains for Łódź.pl, Wrocław.pl, Poznań.pl, Gdańsk.pl, etc, are all deactivated by the government. Last I checked 99% of Polish city IDN.pl are deactivated, with Kraków.pl being a rare exception. Why is this? As I explained above it has nothing to do with ASCII being standardized or already established, and everything to do with diacritic free access, aka international access (including for Poles abroad using non-Polish accommodating language settings). Dropping a diacritic in fact is a trivial matter to most Poles in government in charge of such matters, especially considering two of their largest cities Kraków and Warszawa have officially recognized spelling variants of Cracow and Warsaw, the only two Polish cities to do this (incorrect spellings in Polish, but according to them easier to pronounce for "foreigners"). Countries with 38 million inhabitants survive or thrive based on how they interact with the outside world. Poland has a long linguistic history of accommodation, just look at all the French, German, and English words and influences that have worked their way into the official Polish dictionary.

I should also point out that most Poles don't view a missing diacritic as necessarily an incorrect spelling, especially considering many Poles have freehand writing styles that don't always include them. They instead view it as the internationalized spelling variant, something their minds are used to seeing as the country is surrounded by 7 other countries, all of whom speak a different language.

A black and white language puritan point of view is applicable for writing classic Polish poetry, or building up false hope in the value of a Latin based IDN portfolio free of ASCII conversion counterparts (which are always substantially more valuable), but not for general communication which is a very gray negotiable world. A lot of Brits and Americans can't wrap their minds around an internationalized component built into a language, it's just not clean enough for residents of Empires or former Empires (both of which have a long history of bending cultures and languages to their own, rather than making compromises or accommodations). Poland has never been a global empire, and thus it's been forced throughout it's long history to become culturally and linguistically flexible. Not so much so that it damages the integrity of Polish culture and language, but to the point that Poland is freely accessible and accommodating to other cultures (a missing diacritic or internationalized spelling variant isn't going to cause a Pole to question their identity). It's not a right or wrong spelling issue here, it's about Poles deciding when and where to use domestic or internationalized language modules (the later of which was created hundreds of years before the internet came to be), both of which they created themselves and culturally accept (it wasn't forced upon them by ASCII limited foreigners).
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Old 11th September 2011, 07:33 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

The ASCII internationalized Polish language module can be traced back to 14th century literature I believe, so you could say it's quite a bit older than the internet. :D
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Old 11th September 2011, 08:37 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
Not likely. It's a domestic market trumps international market sort of thing. It's also a point of reference labeling tool. His sales are probably 90% domestic and 10% international (perhaps even selling to Poles living abroad). Unless his website were to be written purely in English without a Polish language version would he then likely opt for a .com. What ".pl" says to me is that "I'm in Poland or heavily affiliated with Poland", not "I only want to be accessible to Poles." It's a point of reference about the web presence that both a domestic and international visitor can extract valuable information from.
So why not use a Polish Language Address.

Let's face it unless the site is in English, providing International Access is pointless.

Global Markets are only statistical constructs from the summation of activity in a lot of distinct local markets. The don't really exist.
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Old 11th September 2011, 08:46 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
The IDN domains for Łódź.pl, Wrocław.pl, Poznań.pl, Gdańsk.pl, etc, are all deactivated by the government. Last I checked 99% of Polish city IDN.pl are deactivated, with Kraków.pl being a rare exception. Why is this? As I explained above it has nothing to do with ASCII being standardized or already established, and everything to do with diacritic free access, aka international access (including for Poles abroad using non-Polish accommodating language settings). Dropping a diacritic in fact is a trivial matter to most Poles in government in charge of such matters, especially considering two of their largest cities Kraków and Warszawa have officially recognized spelling variants of Cracow and Warsaw, the only two Polish cities to do this (incorrect spellings in Polish, but according to them easier to pronounce for "foreigners"). Countries with 38 million inhabitants survive or thrive based on how they interact with the outside world. Poland has a long linguistic history of accommodation, just look at all the French, German, and English words and influences that have worked their way into the official Polish dictionary.

I should also point out that most Poles don't view a missing diacritic as necessarily an incorrect spelling, especially considering many Poles have freehand writing styles that don't always include them. They instead view it as the internationalized spelling variant, something their minds are used to seeing as the country is surrounded by 7 other countries, all of whom speak a different language.

A black and white language puritan point of view is applicable for writing classic Polish poetry, or building up false hope in the value of a Latin based IDN portfolio free of ASCII conversion counterparts (which are always substantially more valuable), but not for general communication which is a very gray negotiable world. A lot of Brits and Americans can't wrap their minds around an internationalized component built into a language, it's just not clean enough for residents of Empires or former Empires (both of which have a long history of bending cultures and languages to their own, rather than making compromises or accommodations). Poland has never been a global empire, and thus it's been forced throughout it's long history to become culturally and linguistically flexible. Not so much so that it damages the integrity of Polish culture and language, but to the point that Poland is freely accessible and accommodating to other cultures (a missing diacritic or internationalized spelling variant isn't going to cause a Pole to question their identity). It's not a right or wrong spelling issue here, it's about Poles deciding when and where to use domestic or internationalized language modules (the later of which was created hundreds of years before the internet came to be), both of which they created themselves and culturally accept (it wasn't forced upon them by ASCII limited foreigners).
Show us some major commercial sites where the content has all the diacritics dropped and I will start to believe.

I dislike that word diacretic as I feel there is a majore distinction between dropping the odd accent and not differentiating correctly between different letters of the alphabet.

The valuation argument is nonsense. No IDN are fetching big money now. That doesn't mean that they don't have value. It is just that Domain Investors don't recogonise it. But most of the big name investors have been wrong about an awful lot, and are even admittiing they might have been wrong about IDN.

In German, Sedo generally accepts that IDN and ASCII versions have equal value. And it is still early days.
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Old 11th September 2011, 10:34 AM
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Re: Skola.me - Traffic & Revenue

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Originally Posted by Rubber Duck View Post
Show us some major commercial sites where the content has all the diacritics dropped and I will start to believe.

I dislike that word diacretic as I feel there is a majore distinction between dropping the odd accent and not differentiating correctly between different letters of the alphabet.

The valuation argument is nonsense. No IDN are fetching big money now. That doesn't mean that they don't have value. It is just that Domain Investors don't recogonise it. But most of the big name investors have been wrong about an awful lot, and are even admittiing they might have been wrong about IDN.

In German, Sedo generally accepts that IDN and ASCII versions have equal value. And it is still early days.
That makes zero sense. Why would the diacritics be dropped from the published non-url based Polish content? As I explained above you've got two separate and interlacing Polish language modules, one which is obviously for domestic consumption and includes the diacritics, and one which is for international consumption. These are not internet based or derived language modules, the diacritic free Polish is 700 years old. There is also another Polish language module for speaking to seniors, work superiors, and one which is far less formal. These inter-working language modules can be difficult to understand for someone not familiar with them, and even more difficult to understand how Poles can switch between them when the context requires. As I explained it's an access issue, the domain is the access point, and thus the international Polish language module is used. The Polish non-url based content would naturally contain it's diacritics, anything less would be completely nonsensical as it doesn't involve the point of access.

I call the Polish accents diacritics because that is exactly what they're referred to in both English and Polish, in Polish it's "znaki diakrytyczne". Why are they referred to as diacritics and not separate letters of the alphabet as you inferred, well because they're not different letters in the alphabet, they're Polish letters with diacritics. The Polish alphabet has n and ń, z, ż, and ź, c and ć, etc. It's still the same letter, only the diacritic marks a different phonetic value of the same letter.

My value argument as applied to the Polish domain market, the only market I was referring to, is absolutely spot on and 100% correct. The IDN has less demand than the internationalized ASCII convert because Polish linguistic rules as applied to domains dictates that the address or point of access utilizes the internationalized Polish language module. It has nothing to do with what domain investors do or do not recognize, that's not even a blip on the radar screen as it's age old language rules that set the precedent (not digital commodities). Again I'm speaking for the Polish domain market only, as clearly different and complex rules apply to other languages.

That's not true with regard to Sedo's German IDN vs ASCII valuation model. Totally false. There is not an employee within Sedo that would value München.com on par with Munchen.com. I was one of the lead bidders in the München.com auction when it sold for $13,500. Are you telling me that Sedo believes Munchen.com is worth $13.5K? That's laughable. There are many other examples within .de that would put your assertion into a similar light. It's just not true. Some rigid hardcore IDN investors don't want to hear that, but that's the price they pay for creating this nonsensical dogmatic political ASCII vs IDN power struggle that doesn't even exist in the minds of sound domain investors, investors who simply accept the terrain and don't try and bend it in a direction that will add equity to their holdings (it's ludicrous that someone would even think they could bend languages rules to synchronize with some IDN hype that they're peddling).

These shots fired between the IDN and ASCII camps are ridiculous. Domaining as an ideology is not a corner I would want to be financially boxed into, as ultimately this game is about ROI.
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Last edited by Seraphim; 11th September 2011 at 10:49 AM..
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