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Old 26th May 2006, 02:27 PM
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IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Hi everyone,

I came accross the article below from DNjournal and wanted to ask you guys if anyone has any inside information about whether or not ICANN would eventually assign the right for IDN.IDN (ie. IDN.com (with the dot com in native script) to the current IDN.com,.net holders or would this be open for grab? I feel this is an important question because if such rights are not assigned to current IDN holders, then the values of these IDN domains we hold would be significantly diminished by the launch of IDN.IDN. Anyone?

Yours,

TrafficDomainer


Cover Story from DNJOurnal

Domain Roundtable 2006

Ram Mohan (Afilias) said the biggest problem for IDNs is “too many choices and too little comprehension.” While there are many issues still to be resolved, Mohan noted that it is only common sense that people will want to surf the web in their own languages.

According to Mr. Mohan’s presentation, some of the hurdles that still have to be cleared are whether someone who owns an ascii.ascii or an idn.ascii domain would get prior rights to an ascii.idn or idn.idn name. What kinds of dispute resolution policies will be required? Do packages of names have to be created or should the same name in different scripts be allowed to go to different places?
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Old 26th May 2006, 02:35 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

I'll put it like this.

I own Anime.com in Japanese
Will they ever have a right to my domain in native Japanese?
Simply put no.


Would car.com have a right to kuruma.com in Japanese?
or would it be cars.com?

What about the french translation of car?

English domains would have absolutely no bearing to a foreign equivalent. It wouldn't make any sense at all.
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Old 26th May 2006, 02:49 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

With the system essentially in place, punycode and international agreements/disagreements hashed out over nearly a decade since first proposed, millions of registrations in place, IE7 ready to provide the backbone of the system worldwide.... all of the pieces are jockeying into place to make it happen. Basically the system is usable now...there just is no major traffic due to lack of awareness and not having IE7 in enough computers to make it work for the masses.

There are upcoming publicized "trials", and settling once and for all the speculation of phising and fraud that have been blown out of proportion for idns. Couple that with the slow pace of ICANN to get much done, the politics of the internet ownership and you have the sludge that has slowed the process.

I believe that IDNs will "catch on" in a big way (starting in Japan) when IE7 and VISTA hit, and they discover a "better" world of url domaining, its going to be hard to stop this train.
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Old 26th May 2006, 03:28 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Hi Olney,

Just to understand this better, I own the domain name ช็อปปิ้ง.com (shopping in Thai), would I automatically own ช็อปปิ้ง.คอม (ie shopping.com all in Thai) once ICANN makes it available or would this be open for grab or would I have the right to the .คอม but have to pay another registration fee for the equivalent extention in Thai?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olney
I'll put it like this.

I own Anime.com in Japanese
Will they ever have a right to my domain in native Japanese?
Simply put no.


Would car.com have a right to kuruma.com in Japanese?
or would it be cars.com?

What about the french translation of car?

English domains would have absolutely no bearing to a foreign equivalent. It wouldn't make any sense at all.
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Old 26th May 2006, 03:50 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

I think the reality is no one knows for sure now as ICANN hasn't made the decision.

Having idn.idn is a major undertaking and i do not believe it can be decided or implemented quickly - btw, how long have they been arguing over .XXX?

Last edited by touchring; 26th May 2006 at 03:59 PM..
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Old 26th May 2006, 03:59 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

If this is up in the air, then we are all gambling at this point? Names of cities that recently got sold to the tune of $XX,XXX may or may not hold value then, depending on how this plays out?

I am quite new to this game so just want to understand a little more and make sure this is solid before I register more names. Anyone else with more information on this?

Thanks!
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:02 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Think about it:

There are many, many, many, languages that you can register IDNs with.

Now, ICAAN has to approve, what, 20, 30, 40, 50 new top level .IDN domains? Each with specific rules too, so as to prevent (or not) the registration of жжж.คอม as well. That's a real issue. How fast have they been approving .XXX domains? Takes years of beaurocracy. It is almost unmanageable with the number of languages that need to be considered to create new .IDN top levels.

So, here comes in DNAME. Aliasing existing IDN.com to IDN.IDN by aliasing and keeping the existing .com. Makes sense? Yes. Simple? Yes. Works? Yes. Advance to Go and collect $20000.

Last edited by blastfromthepast; 26th May 2006 at 04:06 PM..
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:03 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Yeah no one knows for sure. Personally I don't think the release of an IDN.IDN (.com) separate from IDN.com diminishes the .com that much. The saying .com is king exists for a reason and that is because everyone knows and is familiar with it. It is considered a top class extension by everyone and will always have value for this reason alone imo.
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:04 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrafficDomainer
Hi Olney,

Just to understand this better, I own the domain name ช็อปปิ้ง.com (shopping in Thai), would I automatically own ช็อปปิ้ง.คอม (ie shopping.com all in Thai) once ICANN makes it available or would this be open for grab or would I have the right to the .คอม but have to pay another registration fee for the equivalent extention in Thai?
Everything that has been said would indicate that will automatically get it and that you will get it and that you won't have to pay again, but nothing is set in stone.
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:05 PM
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Exclamation Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrafficDomainer
If this is up in the air, then we are all gambling at this point? Names of cities that recently got sold to the tune of $XX,XXX may or may not hold value then, depending on how this plays out?

I am quite new to this game so just want to understand a little more and make sure this is solid before I register more names. Anyone else with more information on this?

Thanks!
I have short common sense answer to youre statement ....

IDN.com Vs ENGLISH.com TO A NON-ENGLISH Speaker


Winner by Unanimous Decision!! IDN.com
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:06 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Yes, it's a gambling situation, but not a lose all your stake gamble, especially when most of the people here registered hundreds or thousands of cheap generics at $7 each, and these will still work even if idn.idns are issued separately.
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:08 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrafficDomainer
Ram Mohan (Afilias) said the biggest problem for IDNs is “too many choices and too little comprehension.” While there are many issues still to be resolved, Mohan noted that it is only common sense that people will want to surf the web in their own languages.
I wouldn't be too concerned with someone from (Affilias) The only language they accept is German.

Come July when Dname (IDN.IDN) is tested live we should know a bunch more.
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:09 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
I think no one knows for sure now.
Correct. The process of IDNing TLDs isn't that far along yet. What we do know is nicely summarized here:

http://www.icann.org/announcements/a...nt-14mar06.htm

So ICANN will be starting testing 2 different IDN TLD solutions in July. From above page:

Quote:
The technical test will include two approaches to the insertion of IDN records into the root zone of the DNS. These are:

* DNAME records - as defined in RFC 2672 DNAME provides an alias designation for an entire domain by mapping a new domain into another that already exists. For an existing TLD, this corresponds to the use of a punycode* string to provide an internationalized alias designation for that TLD using a DNAME record in the root zone.
* NS-records - permit the insertion an internationalized label in the root zone without the duplication of a pre-existing sub domain structure.
The DNAME solution is basically aliasing at the root zone level. So for Thailand, all .คอม domains would just get mapped to their .com equivalent during DNS calls. Hence the owner of the .com and the .คอม *must be* one and the same.

The NS-record solution is more complex, and if I read it right, allows for "real" IDN TLDs, outside existing ASCII TLDs and SLDs.

Now if ICANN decide the DNAME solution is far "better" than NS-record, their subsequent policy choice is really pretty much dictated by the aliasing technology i.e. allocate the IDN.IDN to the IDN.ASCII owner, and it wouldn't take long to implement.

If ICANN, however, decides that NS-records are "better or as good as" DNAME, god only knows what policies they could go for and how long they would take to decide on / implement. That's really the nightmare scenario. That both technical solutions have sufficient merits to take them forward into the policy-making process for IDN.IDN.

That's my reading of the current situation. If I misunderstand any (or all) of this, I'm sure Rubber Duck or someone else will jump into correct me
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:09 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blastfromthepast
Think about it:

There are many, many, many, languages that you can register IDNs with.

Now, ICAAN has to approve, what, 20, 30, 40, 50 new top level .IDN domains? Each with specific rules too, so as to prevent (or not) the registration of жжж.คอม as well. That's a real issue. How fast have they been approving .XXX domains? Takes years of beaurocracy. It is almost unmanageable with the number of languages that need to be considered to create new .IDN top levels.

So, here comes in DNAME. Aliasing existing IDN.com to IDN.IDN by aliasing and keeping the existing .com. Makes sense? Yes. Simple? Yes. Works? Yes. Advance to Go and collect $20000.

DNAME definitely makes sense, but i'm not sure if monetary factors come in. If they can earn more money issuing new extensions, they might be tempted to do that.
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:13 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
DNAME definitely makes sense, but i'm not sure if monetary factors come in. If they can earn more money issuing new extensions, they might be tempted to do that.
They will go slow and in the mean time, домен.com will gain acceptance.

Do you worry about документ.doc? On Windows it still isn't mapped to .док!
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:15 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blastfromthepast
They will go slow and in the mean time, домен.com will gain acceptance.

Do you worry about документ.doc? On Windows it still isn't mapped to .док!

I think it will take some time for them to decide, so the main threat is from ctld for languages like Russian. Whatever the outcome, it's not a zero sum game.
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:19 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

The NS-space option is further complicated by what .IDN extensions are created. Imagine China would receive a .IDN, Japan would get a .IDN, Russia would have to share it's .IDN with Ukraine, Bulgaria, etc, Spain, France, and most, if not all, latin based languages would NOT get a .IDN, Arabic countries would all have to share a .IDN, it goes on and on.

Does that sound like an elegant solution? How complicated would that be?

The DNAME solution is much more elegant in its simplicity. Hopefully, the testing will prove that.
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:21 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
If they can earn more money issuing new extensions, they might be tempted to do that.
You have to think of how long new extensions take to get approved. Then you have to multiply that by most all the languages on earth, besides the romantic languages. And that's just for .com. Sounds like they want all the top level exts. in idn. .com, .net, .org, .info, .biz ect. We would be waiting until the next ice age. They are commited to getting this done by the end of the year and would not be possible any other route besides dname.
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:26 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcle
You have to think of how long new extensions take to get approved. Then you have to multiply that by most all the languages on earth, besides the romantic languages. And that's just for .com. Sounds like they want all the top level exts. in idn. .com, .net, .org, .info, .biz ect. We would be waiting until the next ice age. They are commited to getting this done by the end of the year and would not be possible any other route besides dname.
Where have ICANN committed to getting this done by the end of the year? And to get "what" done exactly? If you are correct, then game, set, and match DNAME...
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Old 26th May 2006, 04:30 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcle
You have to think of how long new extensions take to get approved. Then you have to multiply that by most all the languages on earth, besides the romantic languages. And that's just for .com. Sounds like they want all the top level exts. in idn. .com, .net, .org, .info, .biz ect. We would be waiting until the next ice age. They are commited to getting this done by the end of the year and would not be possible any other route besides dname.

I think they will be arguing it over this like the way we do, so it will be stalemate.

The main threat will come from ctlds.

I thought of another argument that calls for DNAME, .kom can be seen as a variant of .com.

Ultimately, only god knows their final decision.
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