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Old 11th October 2013, 11:41 AM
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Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Could the trademark owner win his trademarked but generic [IDN].com_in_idn arbitration after this gtld launch:
1. with Sunrise and Claims in place?
2. without Sunrise or Claims?
3. IDN.com_in_idn not developed into a site?
4. IDN.com_in_idn developed into a site unrelated to the trademarked category?

say, 苹果.com 【Apple.com】 or 联想.com 【Legend.com】?
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Old 11th October 2013, 11:55 AM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Anything can happen.

If a domain is very dear to you and you get a UDRP, get a lawyer and pay for a 3 men panel. In case you lose, you can file a lawsuit but this is much more expensive.

By the way, the sunrise system does not use the UDRP scheme, it simply allocates domains to TM owners. The Claims scheme is a notice system which could result in a UDRP but there is no guarantee of that and it is not mandatory for a TM owner to use theClaims service before filing a UDRP.
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Old 11th October 2013, 07:28 PM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

苹果.com 【Apple.com】

Selling apps / applications on this site is not a good sign..

Actually selling the fruit or seeds for the fruit tree would be a fine fight effort to have some leverage to keep the domain through UDRP.

selling apps is a greenlight for the lawyers to drop the Wile E. Coyote flattening anvil ....
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Old 11th October 2013, 07:32 PM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbe18 View Post
苹果.com 【Apple.com】

Selling apps / applications on this site is not a good sign..

Actually selling the fruit or seeds for the fruit tree would be a fine fight effort to have some leverage to keep the domain through UDRP.

selling apps is a greenlight for the lawyers to drop the Wile E. Coyote flattening anvil ....
I think Apple have a flattening Anvil of their own.

Last I had heard was that the 5c has been so successful they have now halved production.
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Old 12th October 2013, 12:54 AM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Thanks, but I think TM gamers all over the world had already had the word "Apple" trademarked in nearly every category in most countries except for the Fruit Category thanks to the nature of TM system.
So, only by developing the domain name into a site for fruit can we defend the domain? or other TM gamers can also file UDRP?

Another question:
Could a company win arbitration for a domain exactly matching its Business Mark but not trademarked yet?
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Old 12th October 2013, 02:29 AM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by puyang View Post
Thanks, but I think TM gamers all over the world had already had the word "Apple" trademarked in nearly every category in most countries except for the Fruit Category thanks to the nature of TM system.
So, only by developing the domain name into a site for fruit can we defend the domain? or other TM gamers can also file UDRP?

Another question:
Could a company win arbitration for a domain exactly matching its Business Mark but not trademarked yet?
You can ask an infinite number of "what if" questions with TMs and UDRP and Sunrise and generics and transliterations and corrupt panels etc. You will get no clear answers because every case is different and somewhat arbitrary. You have to follow your own path with each name and see where it leads you.
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Old 12th October 2013, 03:02 AM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by domainguru View Post
You will get no clear answers because every case is different and somewhat arbitrary.
Exactly right.

But if you want to learn more about the UDRP process, start here:Wikipedia article on UDRP

If you want to go into very deep waters, continue here: UDRP Commentaries

But the .com / .com-in-IDN aliasing raises an interesting issue about timing.

Normally, if you register a generic-word domain, and someone later begins using that same word in a business, you are safe from UDRPs (if you don't do something foolish), because you were first.

But suppose we have this situation:
2006: You register generic-word-IDN.com.
2010: A company begins doing business under the name generic-word-IDN.
2014 (we hope): The company doesn't register with the TMCH (Trademark Clearinghouse), and you are granted generic-word-IDN.com-in-IDN.

Your .com registration is protected from UDRP (mostly), because your use of generic-word-IDN predates its use by the company. But your .com-in-IDN registration post-dates the formation of the company, which would seem to increase the company's chance of winning a UDRP for generic-word-IDN.com-in-IDN.

Which brings up an interesting point. Verisign has argued that the registrant of generic-IDN.com should be given priority to register generic-IDN.com-in-IDN, even if generic-IDN has been registered in the TMCH. But even if ICANN allows this exception, it doesn't protect the generic-IDN.com-in-IDN from being taken in a UDRP. So potentially, generic-IDN.com and generic-IDN.com-in-IDN could end up in different hands, due to a UDRP. Probably not what Verisign (or the registrant) had in mind.

But the main thing to keep in mind is this: UDRPs are expensive, which means they are relatively rare, and they are almost always against obvious cyber-squatting domains such as buy-cheap-iphones-here.com. Thus the odds of one of your generic-word domains being hit by a UDRP are pretty low. So check to be sure you are not doing stupid things (such as advertising computers on apple-in-Chinese.com), but then spend your mental energy on finding domains to register, instead of worrying about UDRPs.

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Old 12th October 2013, 07:25 AM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Thanks for the help, but I just want to ask one more question:

Could the IDN owner of [Apple-in-IDN.com-in-idn] defend this domain if he uses the domain for a webpage to introduce the world famous Apple Inc., and on the webpage puts an URL link to the official website Apple Inc. is using?

If the introduction webpage strategy works, we can find lots of ways to cash the traffic then.
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Old 12th October 2013, 04:32 PM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by puyang View Post
If the introduction webpage strategy works, we can find lots of ways to cash the traffic then.


You are looking for advice on how to cybersquat without getting caught. You are at the wrong forum.

There is a difference between legitimate domain investing, and cybersquatting. Please take some time to learn the difference, and return when you are ready to discuss domain investing.

Avtal
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Old 12th October 2013, 04:54 PM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

everything you write here gets indexed by google BTW. If you believe you own a name that might get trademark problems you shouldn't post in a public forum if possible.

Quote:
If the introduction webpage strategy works, we can find lots of ways to cash the traffic then.
I don't believe this would be a good idea.
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Old 12th October 2013, 04:56 PM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avtal View Post


You are looking for advice on how to cybersquat without getting caught. You are at the wrong forum.

There is a difference between legitimate domain investing, and cybersquatting. Please take some time to learn the difference, and return when you are ready to discuss domain investing.

Avtal
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Old 12th October 2013, 06:05 PM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jose View Post
John 8:7
Matthew 7:1-5
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Old 12th October 2013, 07:52 PM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jose View Post
John 8:7
Which (in case you don't have access to Google) is:

When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Sure, I am against stoning as a punishment for adultery. But generalizing, it is difficult to imagine a society where only people who are 100% free of sin are allowed to work in the criminal justice sector.

Avtal
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Old 12th October 2013, 11:47 PM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Thank you guys.
I think I didn't make myself clear enough. I don't want to cybersquatting, but I need to protect my GENERIC domain names that happen to be trademarked by others.
Frankly speaking, generic words have been trademarked all over the world. Believe it or not, there will be little left for domainers after Sunrise, but here comes in the problem for .com-in-idn.

I don't think the introduction webpage for a famous brand with the link to their official website belongs to cybersquatting. We may, for example, put Pad pasting ads on the Apple Inc introduction page to cash the traffic.
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Old 13th October 2013, 12:48 AM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

I agree that almost all generic words are trademarked by someone somewhere in the world. And although trademark owners don't like to admit it, domain investors have legitimate rights to these generic words. So I agree that as domain investors, we need to protect our rights.

Fortunately, only 200 or so IDN (non-Latin) trademarks have been entered in the TMCH so far (these are the only trademarks that are eligible for the .com-in-IDN sunrise), and many of them are probably non-generic words. So the number of generic-word trademarks eligible for the .com-in-IDN sunrises is probably small.

But here is where we disagree:

Quote:
Originally Posted by puyang View Post
I don't think the introduction webpage for a famous brand with the link to their official website belongs to cybersquatting. We may, for example, put Pad pasting ads on the Apple Inc introduction page to cash the traffic.
If you are making money because of someone else's famous brand, using a domain name that is the same as the brand, then the trademark owner will accuse you of cybersquatting, even if the domain name is a generic word. And although nothing is certain in UDRP cases, my guess is that the trademark owner will win.

Avtal
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Old 13th October 2013, 03:06 AM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Thank you Avtal .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avtal View Post
Fortunately, only 200 or so IDN (non-Latin) trademarks have been entered in the TMCH so far (these are the only trademarks that are eligible for the .com-in-IDN sunrise), and many of them are probably non-generic words.
I agree, as long as media coverages for newgtld launch down the road do not trigger TM gamers' action.

But the risky part is that TM holders do not need to put their generic TMs in the TMCH for filing UDRP.
Can anybody come up a great idea to protect premium generic domain names?
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Old 13th October 2013, 10:58 AM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by puyang View Post
Thank you Avtal .
Can anybody come up a great idea to protect premium generic domain names?
I don't think there are great ways to protect generics but i think if you don't try to abuse the system you should be fine in most cases. if your domaining strategy is based on intentionally profiting from well-known TMs even if generics, you will have a hard time defending them.

So IMO the best strategy is to avoid problematic names in the first place. Not 100% risk-free but should work in most cases.

I wouldn't worry too much about losing a name if you play by the rules. It can happen that you lose one even if you did nothing wrong but it's not likely. There is always risk, you can buy a product related term and the product can go out of favor. If you have a collection of generic terms and you lose one it will not affect your portfolio value that much.

if you read a few UDRP cases you will also learn a lot about the dispute resolution process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform...olution_Policy

Quote:
A complainant in a UDRP proceeding must establish three elements to succeed:

The domain name is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the complainant has rights;

The registrant does not have any rights or legitimate interests in the domain name;

and The registrant registered the domain name and is using it in "bad faith".


In a UDRP proceeding, a panel will consider several non-exclusive factors to assess bad faith, such as:

Whether the registrant registered the domain name primarily for the purpose of selling, renting, or otherwise transferring the domain name registration to the complainant who is the owner of the trademark or service mark;


Whether the registrant registered the domain name to prevent the owner of the trademark or service mark from reflecting the mark in a corresponding domain name, if the domain name owner has engaged in a pattern of such conduct; and
Whether the registrant registered the domain name primarily for the purpose of disrupting the business of a competitor; or
Whether by using the domain name, the registrant has intentionally attempted to attract, for commercial gain, internet users to the registrant's website, by creating a likelihood of confusion with the complainant's mark.
The goal of the UDRP is to create a streamlined process for resolving such disputes. It was envisioned that this process would be quicker and less expensive than a standard legal challenge. The costs to hire a UDRP provider to handle a complaint often start around US$1000 to $2000.[7]
If a party loses a UDRP proceeding, in many jurisdictions it may still bring a lawsuit against the domain name registrant under local law. For example, the administrative panel's UDRP decision can be challenged and overturned in a U.S. court of law by means of e.g. the Anticybersquatting Consumer Protection Act. If a domain name registrant loses a UDRP proceeding, it must file a lawsuit against the trademark holder within ten days to prevent ICANN from transferring the domain name.[8]

Last edited by 123; 13th October 2013 at 11:13 AM..
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Old 14th October 2013, 12:12 AM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

Thank you.
Based on our discussion, I've decided to
(1) give up all non-generic domain names matching Business Marks even for those not trademarked yet.
(2) give up generic domain names matching famous trademarked brands such as "Apple".
(3) defend generic domain names such as "food" or "book" unrelated to any famous brand, even if those generic words had been trademarked by others. End user's willingness to pay for a generic domain comes from the fact that it has natural traffic either direct type-in or from search engine. Public interest is our weapon against trademark squatters.
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Old 14th October 2013, 01:32 AM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

The #1 rule is to use the domain in a non-TM-infringing way and ensure adverts for the TM owner's product do not show up on your site.

Often to do this you have to switch off any "intelligent" search products because the TM owner's lawyer will quite happily play with your website until TM adverts appear on it, do a screen shot, then use that as UDRP evidence.

Oh, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk
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Old 14th October 2013, 03:14 AM
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Re: Could the trademark owner win IDN.com_in_idn arbitration after gtld launch?

the pythons/ pythonistas are still amazing...'no stoning until I blow this whistle ' is still an amazing line.... thx s/

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