IDN Forums - Internationalized Domain Names  
Home | Advertise on idnforums | Premium Membership

Go Back   IDN Forums - Internationalized Domain Names > IDN Discussions > General Discussion

General Discussion Feel free to talk about anything and everything in this board.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 25th June 2006, 04:35 PM
555 555 is offline
ком.ком コム.コム
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,141
iTrader: (33)
Rep Power: 1702
555 has disabled reputation
cctld & Dname/NS Record

Hi All,


1.Where do you see the .com and .net (which is all that is now available for most languages) when they will implement idn.cctld i.e computer.com.ua (ukraine) or computer.be (belgium) - Also, when do you think they will work on these cctld idn's?

2.Any news/updates concerning implementation of dname or ns record?

Thanks!

Michael
__________________
ロレックス.com رولكس.com Ролекс.com Порше.com 路易威登.com 必胜宅急送.com 香港迪士尼乐园.com Hermès.com Nestlé.com
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 25th June 2006, 05:13 PM
Rubber Duck's Avatar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Czech Republic (For those of you from USA = Chechnya)
Posts: 15,929
iTrader: (59)
Rep Power: 4530
Rubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura about
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Quote:
Originally Posted by 261275
Hi All,


1.Where do you see the .com and .net (which is all that is now available for most languages) when they will implement idn.cctld i.e computer.com.ua (ukraine) or computer.be (belgium) - Also, when do you think they will work on these cctld idn's?

2.Any news/updates concerning implementation of dname or ns record?

Thanks!

Michael
Well as with everything else, they will do it when they get around to it. Japan, Korea and China have done it in a timely manner. Everyone else will be far too late to have much influence. Have .CN and .JP killed dot com? I doubt it!
__________________
All offers to sell are void.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 01:35 PM
555 555 is offline
ком.ком コム.コム
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,141
iTrader: (33)
Rep Power: 1702
555 has disabled reputation
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Another ICANN Captioning concerning IDN'S:

http://www.icann.org/meetings/marrak...ws-26jun06.htm

And i will try again if someone can help understand:

1. IF they go with ns record = our domains will have a "twin brother"?
Example: Existing idn ячсми.com / new ns record idn.idn ячсми.ком?

2. IF they choose to map/use equivalents then what happens to our regged idn domains?

3. is it technically possible for them to go with dname as a "temporary solution" while taking 2-3-4 years to start these ns record names?

4. Is there a time frame anyone knows of that by that time we will know the decision?

Thank you!
Michael
__________________
ロレックス.com رولكس.com Ролекс.com Порше.com 路易威登.com 必胜宅急送.com 香港迪士尼乐园.com Hermès.com Nestlé.com
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 01:54 PM
drbiohealth's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 375
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 672
drbiohealth is on a distinguished roaddrbiohealth is on a distinguished roaddrbiohealth is on a distinguished roaddrbiohealth is on a distinguished roaddrbiohealth is on a distinguished roaddrbiohealth is on a distinguished road
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

If these two, ячсми.com and ячсми.ком, become two separate entities then I guess there would be total lawlessness because they are so confusingly similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 261275
Example: Existing idn ячсми.com / new ns record idn.idn ячсми.ком?
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 01:59 PM
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: On the Road
Posts: 2,276
iTrader: (50)
Rep Power: 1240
thefabfive is on a distinguished roadthefabfive is on a distinguished roadthefabfive is on a distinguished roadthefabfive is on a distinguished roadthefabfive is on a distinguished roadthefabfive is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to thefabfive
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Quote:
If these two, ячсми.com and ячсми.ком, become two separate entities then I guess there would be total lawlessness because they are so confusingly similar.
...dogs and cats, living together... mass hysteria!
__________________
IDN? What's an IDN?
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 02:13 PM
Semi-retired
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Blighty
Posts: 5,531
iTrader: (57)
Rep Power: 3461
alpha has disabled reputation
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

this is a comforting quote: A WARNING TO THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE BANKING ON IDNS, WE LOOK AT USERS IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD, WE ARE DISCOVERING THAT DOMAIN NAMES ARE BEING USED LESS AND LESS AND THAT SEARCH ENGINES AND PORTALS AND CROSS REFERENCES AND DIRECTORIES ARE BEING USED MORE AND MORE.
WERE THAT TREND TO CONTINUE, WE COULD GUESS THAT IN SOME NUMBER OF YEARS, USERS WOULDN'T CARE WHAT WAS IN THEIR DOMAIN NAMES.


edit: WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE PERMITTED CHARACTER LIST.
WE NEED TO CONSIDER REMOVING NON-LANGUAGE CHARACTERS.
WE MAY NOT NEED TO DRAW PICTURES IN A DOMAIN NAME.
MAYBE THAT'S MORE TROUBLE THAN IT'S WORTH.
AND REMOVING WORD SEPARATOR CHARACTERS.
IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN POSSIBLE TO HAVE A DOMAIN NAME LABEL WITH A SPACE IN IT, BUT THERE ARE REALLY GOOD REASONS WHY NOBODY'S DONE IT OR NOBODY DOES IT REGULARLY.

Last edited by alpha; 28th June 2006 at 02:17 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 02:20 PM
555 555 is offline
ком.ком コム.コム
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,141
iTrader: (33)
Rep Power: 1702
555 has disabled reputation
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

i dont see the comfort in this statement (where is the statement taken from btw)

in relation to this thread what is your thoughts on:

Assuming that we dont get what we hope for (DNAME) but get ns record...

imo the only advantage we will have would be the direct navigation/seo traffic from the idn's we own... and the question is...if you would have to make an educated guess of how much more traffic we will get i.e 1yr after ie7 is out in comparesment to today's traffic (x10 , x100 ,x45.2 etc...)
__________________
ロレックス.com رولكس.com Ролекс.com Порше.com 路易威登.com 必胜宅急送.com 香港迪士尼乐园.com Hermès.com Nestlé.com
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 02:37 PM
domainguru's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,835
iTrader: (14)
Rep Power: 2537
domainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura about
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphamale
this is a comforting quote: A WARNING TO THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE BANKING ON IDNS, WE LOOK AT USERS IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD, WE ARE DISCOVERING THAT DOMAIN NAMES ARE BEING USED LESS AND LESS AND THAT SEARCH ENGINES AND PORTALS AND CROSS REFERENCES AND DIRECTORIES ARE BEING USED MORE AND MORE.
WERE THAT TREND TO CONTINUE, WE COULD GUESS THAT IN SOME NUMBER OF YEARS, USERS WOULDN'T CARE WHAT WAS IN THEIR DOMAIN NAMES.


[/I][/B]
1) Who said this?
2) Where is their evidence that "domain names are being used less and less" - domain registrations are continually on the up.
3) "Users wouldn't care what was in their domain names" sounds like a load of b***** to me. We heard it all 3 years ago when googling was set to replace domain names. Give me a break someone.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 02:39 PM
Semi-retired
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Blighty
Posts: 5,531
iTrader: (57)
Rep Power: 3461
alpha has disabled reputation
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Quote:
Originally Posted by 261275
....where is the statement taken from btw...
your hyperlink above!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by domainguru
1) Who said this?
2) Where is their evidence that "domain names are being used less and less" - domain registrations are continually on the up.
3) "Users wouldn't care what was in their domain names" sounds like a load of b***** to me. We heard it all 3 years ago when googling was set to replace domain names. Give me a break someone.
i'm only copy/pasting quotes from icann workshop!!! don't shoot the messenger!!!

Last edited by alpha; 28th June 2006 at 02:41 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 02:46 PM
domainguru's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,835
iTrader: (14)
Rep Power: 2537
domainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura aboutdomainguru has a spectacular aura about
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphamale
your hyperlink above!!



i'm only copy/pasting quotes from icann workshop!!! don't shoot the messenger!!!
I am just saying he is talking nonsense from the brief quote I have seen. Nothing against the messenger whatsoever!

And for the person that said these things, perhaps he is getting cause and effect mixed up i.e. most people in the world don't use domains because they are in a foreign language, not most people don't want to use domains. (But still, where is the evidence about people not using domains so much ...)
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 02:46 PM
Rubber Duck's Avatar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Czech Republic (For those of you from USA = Chechnya)
Posts: 15,929
iTrader: (59)
Rep Power: 4530
Rubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura about
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Quote:
Originally Posted by 261275
Another ICANN Captioning concerning IDN'S:

http://www.icann.org/meetings/marrak...ws-26jun06.htm

And i will try again if someone can help understand:

1. IF they go with ns record = our domains will have a "twin brother"?
Example: Existing idn ячсми.com / new ns record idn.idn ячсми.ком?

2. IF they choose to map/use equivalents then what happens to our regged idn domains?

3. is it technically possible for them to go with dname as a "temporary solution" while taking 2-3-4 years to start these ns record names?

4. Is there a time frame anyone knows of that by that time we will know the decision?

Thank you!
Michael
In reality it would not have one but hundreds of twin brothers. I know that for this particular term only the Cyrillic is relevant, but for all the other terms the goodness knows how many equivalents would all need to be installed into the Root and they would all need regulatory approval. This undoubtedly could not occur at the same time, as agreement for some would take much longer than for others, especially for language where the Unicode has not even yet been determined. They would all have to linked and equated at some point. Nightmare scenario. DNAME is the only viable solution for general roll out. NS Record will pacify the Chinese temporarily if the DName thing doesn't pass its initial test flight, but at best it is patch and make do.
__________________
All offers to sell are void.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 02:49 PM
Semi-retired
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Blighty
Posts: 5,531
iTrader: (57)
Rep Power: 3461
alpha has disabled reputation
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

For once there seems to be some juicy stuff in the write up.

If anyone who understands it fancies summarising the key points from OUR perspective it will be greatly appreciated by many here.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 02:51 PM
Rubber Duck's Avatar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Czech Republic (For those of you from USA = Chechnya)
Posts: 15,929
iTrader: (59)
Rep Power: 4530
Rubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura about
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Quote:
Originally Posted by domainguru
1) Who said this?
2) Where is their evidence that "domain names are being used less and less" - domain registrations are continually on the up.
3) "Users wouldn't care what was in their domain names" sounds like a load of b***** to me. We heard it all 3 years ago when googling was set to replace domain names. Give me a break someone.
This is largely rhetoric to convince the wafes and strays that they need to go with DNAME. What he is trying to say is that if the IDN solution is not forthcoming the World won't wait forever. Either ICANN get relevant or something else wil happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphamale
For once there seems to be some juicy stuff in the write up.

If anyone who understands it fancies summarising the key points from OUR perspective it will be greatly appreciated by many here.
I watched a lot of it on the Webcam Yesterday, as well as some non IDN bits by mistake. What was noticeable was a lot of the non IDN bits talked mostly about IDN. It is an all pervasive phenomenon which is impacting on every aspect of ICANN policy making.

The ICANN workshops themselves seem to be more about selling the idea and outlining the limitation of the concept. It is clear that even with ICANN understanding is very poor. John Klensin went to some length to try to explain that DNAME is not a domestic robot or teasmade. It not your personal organiser or year planner. It will at best only do what it says on the tin and that there maybe unforeseen restriction. I think he would like to see the concept trimmed down so that it does the essential well, but possibly misses out some of the whilstles and bells. He was trying to make it clear to the policy gurus that they can only offer what the technical people can deliver. In other words policy will be dictated by technical limitations and not the other way around.
__________________
All offers to sell are void.

Last edited by Rubber Duck; 28th June 2006 at 03:03 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 03:02 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,806
iTrader: (19)
Rep Power: 705
Giant is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
This is largely rhetoric to convince the wafes and strays that they need to go with DNAME. What he is trying to say is that if the IDN solution is not forthcoming the World won't wait forever. Either ICANN get relevant or something else wil happen.
I know the "Real Name" people like to use this kind of rhetoric. We can call it the stupid quote of the day.

My opinion is, both DNAME and NS RECORD are bad idea, the domains we have now are perfectly fine. The trouble of shifting back and forth should be solved by browser or keyboard design, we should not modify Root Servers to accommodate the comfort of human habit. Because human habit can change over time.
__________________
@

Dot Com is King. IDN.com will soon be king.
@

Last edited by Giant; 28th June 2006 at 03:07 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 03:08 PM
Rubber Duck's Avatar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Czech Republic (For those of you from USA = Chechnya)
Posts: 15,929
iTrader: (59)
Rep Power: 4530
Rubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura about
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
I know the "Real Name" people like to use this kind of rhetoric. We can call it the stupid quote of the day.

My opinion is, both DNAME and NS RECORD are bad idea, the domains we have now are perfectly fine. The trouble of shifting back and forth should be solved by browser or keyboard design, we should not modify Root Servers to accommodate the comfort of human habit.
The decision to put the first level into the Root was largely taken because it was known that the Browsers would attempt to highjack traffic given half the chance. By putting this into the Root it takes the responsibility away from them and should result in a fundamentally more reliable system in terms of accurate resolution. The other problem is that the implementation of the second level has taken forever because of the wanton neglect of the browser writers. It was clear that they could not be trusted again.
__________________
All offers to sell are void.
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 03:19 PM
Olney's Avatar
A.W.O.L
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 2,747
iTrader: (13)
Rep Power: 0
Olney has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Can I resay this correctly...

Quote:
A WARNING TO THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE BANKING ON IDNS, WE LOOK AT USERS IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD, WE ARE DISCOVERING THAT DOMAIN NAMES ARE BEING USED LESS AND LESS AND THAT SEARCH ENGINES AND PORTALS AND CROSS REFERENCES AND DIRECTORIES ARE BEING USED MORE AND MORE.
WERE THAT TREND TO CONTINUE, WE COULD GUESS THAT IN SOME NUMBER OF YEARS, USERS WOULDN'T CARE WHAT WAS IN THEIR DOMAIN NAMES.
Warning, We have Discovered that since IE the main browser couldn't work with IDN Domains, & the technical issues we never fixed weren't resolved. People in other countries could care less about Domains in ASCII that they can't remember & have been forced gto find every single, web site from Search Engine results. Instead of realizing that IDNs would be a solution to people being able to type in Domains, actually be able to remembers them, & companies being to actually register their "Exact Named" in their native language... Let's pretend that none of that matters, & go back to pretending that everyone loves ASCII Domains...


I saw the Webcast that mofo scares me....
__________________
テスト中: ベリーダンス : Japan SEM : カードローン
LosAngeles.jp (Not an IDN, yeah I do those too)
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 03:29 PM
Rubber Duck's Avatar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Czech Republic (For those of you from USA = Chechnya)
Posts: 15,929
iTrader: (59)
Rep Power: 4530
Rubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura about
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

I would also like to make the point that the DNAME proposal will not technically require putting anything new into the root, unless muppet decides that the world needs hundreds of duplicate registeries.

If we are simply talking about Aliasing existing registries as we should be, and from a practical stand point must be, then all IDN traffic is simply syphoned off, normalised and then fed back into the root in ASCII format. That is why the necessary changes don't require regulatory approval. Anything else will, and for that reason, it will take forever.
__________________
All offers to sell are void.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 03:47 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,806
iTrader: (19)
Rep Power: 705
Giant is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
I would also like to make the point that the DNAME proposal will not technically require putting anything new into the root,...
Yes, that's why DNAME is what ICANN should choose to go ahead.

But I want to clarify that DNAME is not an essential part of IDN, it just help users feel more comfortable in 2 ways:

1) No more shifting back and forth, they just type 中国。公司, instead of typing 中国 + SHIFT + .com.

2) They feel proud of themselves because even the extensions are in their language.

#2 should be ignored by ICANN because it's just an illusion, not real need. The Arabic number 1, 2, 3... are part of Chinese characters now, there's no reason why we can't accept latin letters a, b, c.. as our own characters.
__________________
@

Dot Com is King. IDN.com will soon be king.
@
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 03:59 PM
Rubber Duck's Avatar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Czech Republic (For those of you from USA = Chechnya)
Posts: 15,929
iTrader: (59)
Rep Power: 4530
Rubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura aboutRubber Duck has a spectacular aura about
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
Yes, that's why DNAME is what ICANN should choose to go ahead.

But I want to clarify that DNAME is not an essential part of IDN, it just help users feel more comfortable in 2 ways:

1) No more shifting back and forth, they just type 中国。公司, instead of typing 中国 + SHIFT + .com.

2) They feel proud of themselves because even the extensions are in their language.

#2 should be ignored by ICANN because it's just an illusion, not real need. The Arabic number 1, 2, 3... are part of Chinese characters now, there's no reason why we can't accept latin letters a, b, c.. as our own characters.
I don't think that quite encompasses the Arabic, Hebrew, Farsi or Persian perspectives. Without IDN.IDN right to left is a nightmare.
__________________
All offers to sell are void.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 28th June 2006, 04:08 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 7,495
iTrader: (65)
Rep Power: 2699
blastfromthepast will become famous soon enoughblastfromthepast will become famous soon enoughblastfromthepast will become famous soon enoughblastfromthepast will become famous soon enoughblastfromthepast will become famous soon enoughblastfromthepast will become famous soon enoughblastfromthepast will become famous soon enoughblastfromthepast will become famous soon enoughblastfromthepast will become famous soon enough
Re: cctld & Dname/NS Record

In Russia, every one knows domain names as either домен.РУ, домен.КОМ, домен.НЕТ. That's how people speak, that's how websites title themselves.

I'm sure there are newbies who are typing in домен.ру and домен.ком into their browser bars right now, and are suprised that they don't resolve.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:29 PM.

Site Sponsors
Your ad here
buy t-shirt
מחיר הזהב

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0
Copyright idnforums.com 2005

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54