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Old 12th July 2006, 12:01 AM
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ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

http://www.icann.org/announcements/a...nt-10jul06.htm

"10 July 2006

Marrakech, Morocco, 30 June, 2006: Over 750 delegates from 87 countries gathered in Marrakech, Morocco for ICANN's 26th International Meeting. These meetings, one of three held each year, are open to anyone interested in participating. They constitute an essential part of ICANN's efforts to consult the global community.

"This has been a successful meeting. We saw progress on Internationalized Domain Names (IDNs) and the WHOIS policy process, as well as development of the relationship between the Board and ICANN Governmental Advisory Committee (GAC)" said Dr Paul Twomey, President and CEO of ICANN.

"This was also the last ICANN meeting before the expiry of the Memorandum of Understanding with the United States Government, so we had discussions and set up a consultation process on existing and future organizational models" he said.

During the week, a number of workshops and meetings were conducted in relation to IDNs to further the work already conducted in this important area. IDNs will enable people across the world to interact with the Internet's domain name system in their own languages.

This meeting culminated with a Board resolution to extend the timeline for the Top Level Domain (TLD) registries working group to develop a best current practices document for submission during next ICANN meeting in Sao Paulo, Brazil this December.

..."

So, we won't see DNAME or NS-Records concluded very soon, it's actually good for us. Why? Let's discuss about it. But first, cheers!
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Last edited by Giant; 12th July 2006 at 01:34 AM..
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Old 12th July 2006, 12:35 AM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

In this case, no news is good news. When IE7 comes online, and big companies start using IDNs, it is going to be a hard argument to say in 2 years time, oh well, we aren't doing dname, you have to register all your domains all over again.
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Old 12th July 2006, 01:45 AM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

Quote:
Originally Posted by blastfromthepast
In this case, no news is good news. When IE7 comes online, and big companies start using IDNs, it is going to be a hard argument to say in 2 years time, oh well, we aren't doing dname, you have to register all your domains all over again.
If the IE7 automatic update is released soon, by the time ICANN reconvenes in December we should see some nice momentum on IDN usage and appeal. With a bit of luck on early IE7 release, the IDN genie will be out of the bottle in a big way and working its spell on the logical choice of the DNAME mapping solution.

DNAME Mapping Proposal: http://www.icann.nl/announcements/pr...ld-12dec05.pdf
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Old 12th July 2006, 06:55 AM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwhhisc
If the IE7 automatic update is released soon, by the time ICANN reconvenes in December we should see some nice momentum on IDN usage and appeal. With a bit of luck on early IE7 release, the IDN genie will be out of the bottle in a big way and working its spell on the logical choice of the DNAME mapping solution.
[/url]
If you read carefully, there are still a lot of questions need to be discussed. One of them that probably need more time to negotiate is how to assign the translated names. Many second level ccTLDs are using com and net extention (like .com.cn or .net.cn), they all want the most popular translated terms that VeriSign wants to use.

It doesn't matter which option DNAME or NS-Records will be adopted, ICANN still needs 1 to 2 years to complete IDN.IDN. By the time IDN.IDN is ready, IDN.com and IDN.ccTLD will already become mainstream.

I don't care much about IDN.IDN, they are welcome to come anytime. But yes, IE7 automatic update is what I am really waiting for.
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Old 12th July 2006, 05:15 PM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
Many second level ccTLDs are using com and net extention (like .com.cn or .net.cn), they all want the most popular translated terms that VeriSign wants to use.
Are you implying that ccTLD's will want to be allowed to map their 2LD's to TLD's?

Can't see that ever happening.

The ccTLD's should be allowed to request DNAME equivalents of their ccTLD string (or a TLD string that denotes their country name in a native language). After that, they can do whatever they want in their own namespace but mapping it down to the TLD level should NOT BE ALLOWED.
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Old 12th July 2006, 05:28 PM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
If you read carefully, there are still a lot of questions need to be discussed. One of them that probably need more time to negotiate is how to assign the translated names. Many second level ccTLDs are using com and net extention (like .com.cn or .net.cn), they all want the most popular translated terms that VeriSign wants to use.

It doesn't matter which option DNAME or NS-Records will be adopted, ICANN still needs 1 to 2 years to complete IDN.IDN. By the time IDN.IDN is ready, IDN.com and IDN.ccTLD will already become mainstream.

I don't care much about IDN.IDN, they are welcome to come anytime. But yes, IE7 automatic update is what I am really waiting for.
Technically, NS could be done much sooner, but politically it will take at least as long, if not longer than DNAME. I think DNAME could be done very early next year, but not for every extension in every language. It can be like a library that is built book by book.

The October the 10th Date is very significant, although I am not yet certain why. Scrapping XP Service Pack 1 is just part of a grander scheme. This date is certainly the last date at which IE 6.0 will be regarded as current software, but I suspect there is more to it than that. I believe this will prove to be the Vista Launch Date for OEM installation. It needs to be around this time for boxes shipped from China to be on the shelves in a timely manner for Christmas sales. I accept that this could be missed, but I am nevertheless convinced this is the plan.

IE 7.0 will certainly be live by this date. I think logically if IE 6.0 is going down the tubes then IE 7.0 roll-out will need to be substantially complete by then. My guess is that Microsoft will give themselves a clear 6 weeks, so first week in September is looking favourites. I believe that by Christmas, most legitimate installations will be IE 7.0 and, although IDN.IDN may not be live, we will have a clear road map.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbert
Are you implying that ccTLD's will want to be allowed to map their 2LD's to TLD's?

Can't see that ever happening.

The ccTLD's should be allowed to request DNAME equivalents of their ccTLD string (or a TLD string that denotes their country name in a native language). After that, they can do whatever they want in their own namespace but mapping it down to the TLD level should NOT BE ALLOWED.
There might be a risk if Languages and Countries were synomous but they are not! If that were true, then the USA should be handing over dot Com to the Brits!
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 12th July 2006 at 05:31 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 12th July 2006, 06:39 PM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

No, I think what we're talking about here is TLD -> 2LD DNAME mappings appearing in the ICANN root.

Apparently China has done it in their local name servers, but I don't think it should ever be allowed in the true root.

Allowed:

.мексика -> .mx
.墨西哥 -> .mx
.red -> .net

Disallowed

.comm -> .com.mx
.network -> .net.mx
.red -> .net.mx

NO LEVEL JUMPING.
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Old 12th July 2006, 07:23 PM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

Actually I am sure that DNAME will allow level jumping. Why shouldn't China have 50 virtual TLDs, if that is what they want? Won't particularly interfere with anyone else and the more confusion it creates the more people will stick with dot Com.

In the true root as you put it, Countries are only going to one IDN.IDN per script at best.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbert
No, I think what we're talking about here is TLD -> 2LD DNAME mappings appearing in the ICANN root.

Apparently China has done it in their local name servers, but I don't think it should ever be allowed in the true root.

Allowed:

.мексика -> .mx
.墨西哥 -> .mx
.red -> .net

Disallowed

.comm -> .com.mx
.network -> .net.mx
.red -> .net.mx

NO LEVEL JUMPING.
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 12th July 2006 at 07:26 PM..
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Old 12th July 2006, 08:33 PM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbert
Are you implying that ccTLD's will want to be allowed to map their 2LD's to TLD's?

Can't see that ever happening.

The ccTLD's should be allowed to request DNAME equivalents of their ccTLD string (or a TLD string that denotes their country name in a native language). After that, they can do whatever they want in their own namespace but mapping it down to the TLD level should NOT BE ALLOWED.
I think the whole purpose of using DNAME or NS-Records is to enable ccTLDs' 2LD or 3LD to be resolved worldwide (and look short, like TLD), and that's why the ccTLD people so insisted to work with the Root. If not for this purpose, the browser can do the IDN.IDN job beautifully. The browser already translates 酒店.cn into xn--hxt324i.cn, I don't see why it cannot translate 酒店.中国 into xn--hxt324i.cn, or vice versa.

But you raise an interesting question, where is the document from ICANN that says disallow or allow such level jumping?

I did read some where about the level jumping with DNAME and NS-Records, but can't find it now.
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Last edited by Giant; 12th July 2006 at 08:54 PM..
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Old 12th July 2006, 09:08 PM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
I think the whole purpose of using DNAME or NS-Records is to enable ccTLDs' 2LD or 3LD to be resolved worldwide (and look short, like TLD), and that's why the ccTLD people so insisted to work with the Root. If not for this purpose, the browser can do the IDN.IDN job beautifully. The browser already translates 酒店.cn into xn--hxt324i.cn, I don't see why it cannot translate 酒店.中国 into xn--hxt324i.cn, or vice versa.

But you raise an interesting question, where is the document from ICANN that says disallow or allow such level jumping?

I did read some where about the level jumping with DNAME and NS-Records, but can't find it now.
Well I have put the concept of Level Jumping about sixth month ago to ICANN but I don't recall seeing it any where else. The ultimate level jump of course is to go to extentionless virtual domains or keywords, which was also suggested for DNAME. I cannot see this even being contemplated with NS.
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Old 13th July 2006, 01:27 AM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

17 Nov 2005

Additional Domains Reflecting National Languages and Scripts Description: Several groups have suggested that countries should be entitled to one additional domain reflecting the country's name in a national language. Some approaches to these additional domains suggest that they should be completely separate from the existing country-code domains, others that they be somehow linked in terms of names and structures. The "completely separate domain" approach is unquestionably technically feasible, at least as long as the number of domains added per year is kept relatively small, but raises a number of difficult policy issues (see "discussion", below).

After considerable discussion, the idea was rejected by the original President's IDN Committee, precisely because of those policy issues.

By contrast, most of the ideas of partial or complete linkage between an internationalized TLD name and a ccTLD one are not technically feasible: if complete linkage is desired, than an alias (see above) should be considered. Linkages that contemplate, e.g., translation or transliteration of names throughout the domain tree are not feasible given the design and implementation of the DNS and the important principle of distributed administration of subdomains.

http://icann.org/announcements/exami...ns-17nov05.pdf
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Old 13th July 2006, 02:51 AM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

>the idea was rejected by the original President's IDN Committee, precisely because of
>those policy issues.

And in the same breath ICANN will say it's a purely technical body.

Sheesh.
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Old 13th July 2006, 06:00 AM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Actually I am sure that DNAME will allow level jumping. Why shouldn't China have 50 virtual TLDs, if that is what they want? Won't particularly interfere with anyone else and the more confusion it creates the more people will stick with dot Com.

In the true root as you put it, Countries are only going to one IDN.IDN per script at best.
There is a difference between what you preach and what is really going happen.

Do you have any proof of this?

Are you saying do away with .com.cn and have everything map to .cn? (in .idn)

What about where two different owners own a idn.cn idn.com.cn?
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Old 13th July 2006, 08:06 AM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
There is a difference between what you preach and what is really going happen.

Do you have any proof of this?

Are you saying do away with .com.cn and have everything map to .cn? (in .idn)

What about where two different owners own a idn.cn idn.com.cn?
You misunderstand what he said, my young friend. Read this first:

http://icann.org/announcements/exami...ns-17nov05.pdf
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Old 13th July 2006, 08:07 AM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
There is a difference between what you preach and what is really going happen.

Do you have any proof of this?

Are you saying do away with .com.cn and have everything map to .cn? (in .idn)

What about where two different owners own a idn.cn idn.com.cn?
Second level domains have never been in the ICANN Root. They are effectively subdomains run by the ccTLDs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by blastfromthepast
17 Nov 2005

The "completely separate domain" approach is unquestionably technically feasible, at least as long as the number of domains added per year is kept relatively small, but raises a number of difficult policy issues (see "discussion", below).
This is precisely why NS is feasible for ccTLD IDN.IDN but to my knowledge is not seriously being considered for gTLD by the technical people. The policy people don't appear to have taken this onboard, but that was much of what Klensin's Marahkesh speach was about. He was telling them that the Policy is going to have to be built around what is Technically Possible and not the other way around. It is pointless forming policy that cannot be technically implemented.
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 13th July 2006 at 08:16 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 13th July 2006, 08:30 AM
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Re: ICANN Concludes 26th IP Meeting with Action on IDNs

Quote:
Originally Posted by blastfromthepast

if complete linkage is desired, than an alias (see above) should be considered.
This is it.
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