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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 19th July 2006, 06:32 PM
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IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Any expert care to answer...

http://www.dnforum.com/thread166386.html
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Old 19th July 2006, 07:08 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

I am not an expert, but I will write a few lines of what I know about it, and hope any member(s) here help proofread and make my explaining readable and understandable.
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Old 19th July 2006, 07:57 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Well, I hope I have not prempted anyone, but I have added by 555 penny worth. The question set was on par with "What is the meaning of life?" but I have attempted to give a synopsis, even if it is in my own inimitable style.
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Old 19th July 2006, 08:10 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

First we need to understand what is an IDN.ascii, and what is IDN.idn.

Let's use an IDN.ccTLD domain 中国.cn [China.cn] for example.

User <---- [中国.cn]-------- (Software/Browser) -------- [xn--fiqs8s.cn] ----> Root Server

xn--fiqs8s.cn is no different from any ASCII domains like LOANS.cn in the registry, they are all ASCII domains. But why we call xn--fiqs8s.cn an IDN domain?

Because the browser makes it look like an Chinese (Unicode) domain. Whenever the software/browser sees a domain start with "XN--", it will apply "Punycode Scheme" formular to the ASCII script after "hyphen hyphen" and translate it into Unicode character(s). So in this case xn--fiqs8s.cn looks like 中国.cn to the user.

And vice versa, when the user types 中国.cn URL to the browser, the browser translates it to xn--fiqs8s.cn then sends it the Root server.

So, is IDN.ascii usable? valuable? Absolutely, 100% just like any other ASCII domains.

Now IDN.idn.

A domain we see is always with an extention like .cn, and we know xn--fiqs8s.cn is to be resolved at the root server in China.

Many people in many different countries ask, if we can make the domain part look like Chinese, why don't we also make its extention look like Chinese? like 中国.中国

That's how the idea IDN.idn came from. Of course, it's very easy to achieve this.

1) If when the browser translates the domain (Punycode), it's also programmed to translate the extention at the same time, it's done. Or

2) ICANN can help China create a new Top Level Domain (中国) in the Global root server, and the new domain (中国) will be .XN--FIQS8S. So, 中国.中国 will be resoved as xn--fiqs8s.XN--FIQS8S in ICANN's Root server.

User <--- [中国.中国]------- (Software/Browser) ----- [xn--fiqs8s.XN--FIQS8S] ----> Root Server

Will they work? Absolutely, the project is now under discussion at ICANN.

IDN.ascii domains will become mainstream soon because they are seriously in demand in all non-English speaking countries. But if you want to know if IDN.idn is a good idea, my opinion is NO. I will try to present my argument later.
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Last edited by Giant; 20th July 2006 at 01:46 AM..
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Old 19th July 2006, 08:13 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Very good Giant, but a post where the question was asked might have been more appropriate.
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Old 19th July 2006, 08:20 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
That's how the idea IDN.idn came from. Of course, it's very easy to achieve this.

1) If when the browser translates the domain (Punycode), it's also programmed to translate the extention at the same time, it's done.

2) ICANN can help China create a new domain (中国) in the Global root server, and the new domain (中国) will be .XN--FIQS8S. So, 中国.中国 will be resoved as xn--fiqs8s.XN--FIQS8S in ICANN's Root server.
Very good explanation Giant.

Your diagram makes it clearer to the average domainer where the unicode/punycode conversion takes place. I think that is where some confusion lies.

Perhaps a similar diagram for IDN.IDN would be helpful for 2):

Root Server <---- [xn--fiqs8s.xn--fiqs8s]---- (Firefox, IE7, Opera, Safari) ----- [中国.中国] ----> User

On second thought, left to right would make it even easier to read:

User ----> [中国.中国] ----- (Firefox, IE7, Opera, Safari) ---- [xn--fiqs8s.xn--fiqs8s] -----> Root Server
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Old 19th July 2006, 08:22 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Yes, again IDNowner was prompting for a contribution to a thread at DNFs.
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Old 19th July 2006, 08:25 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
I am not an expert, but I will write a few lines of what I know about it, and hope any member(s) here help proofread and make my explaining readable and understandable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Yes, again IDNowner was prompting for a contribution to a thread at DNFs.
I was helping to 'proofread'.
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Old 19th July 2006, 08:28 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gammascalper
I was helping to 'proofread'.
Ah! Sorry, didn't appreciate the level of collaboration here! My mistake.
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Old 19th July 2006, 08:31 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Ah! Sorry, didn't appreciate the level of collaboration here! My mistake.
How about idnowner posting it (with Giant's permission)? That would send a few for a loop. He he.
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Old 19th July 2006, 08:44 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Quote:
Originally Posted by idnowner
Any expert care to answer...

http://www.dnforum.com/thread166386.html


The type of answer you will get from experts will depend on where their interest lie.

The idn.com speculator claim (regardless of mother tongue):
.COM is king.

The truth:
Some natives prefer their own language, including the extension. If they want to use .com, they rather type the whole url in romanized form as they have done for ages - there's no reason to enter idn when you can type abc just as well. idn.idn will take a few years to pick up in popularity.


Disclaimer - i've got more .com than .native, so i'm speaking from a non-biased position.

Last edited by touchring; 19th July 2006 at 08:53 PM..
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Old 19th July 2006, 08:44 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gammascalper
How about idnowner posting it (with Giant's permission)? That would send a few for a loop. He he.
Oh, no need my permission, thank you for spreading it.

Always welcome to modify my post, because my English is so perfect

Thank you Gamma for the better diagram.
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Old 19th July 2006, 08:51 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
The idn.com speculator claim:
.COM is king.

The truth:
Natives prefer their own language, including the extension. If they want to use .com, they rather type the whole url in romanized form.


Source of information: Check out miba.cn.
Disclaimer - i've got more .com than .native, so i'm speaking from a non-biased position.
All predictions about future behaviour are to some extent guesses based on extrapolations of current behaviour. That current behaviour is very much skewed towards the use of ASCII simply because that is what is currently supported by the technology. When there is a discontinuity in technology, such as IDN represents. then most such extrapolations are worthless.
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Old 19th July 2006, 08:56 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
All predictions about future behaviour are to some extent guesses based on extrapolations of current behaviour. That current behaviour is very much skewed towards the use of ASCII simply because that is what is currently supported by the technology. When there is a discontinuity in technology, such as IDN represents. then most such extrapolations are worthless.

Yes, you made the point!

.com is now the norm, but with IDN, it's a new world.

We techies are always living in the old world and very resistant to changes. There was a time when office computer technicians hated using the GUI - they prefer good old command prompt, handcoded HTML, and no one believed that stupid GUI machines and software are practical, especially superslow web-based accounting applications that take 20 seconds to load! But fast forward 10 years, Windows, GUI, and web-apps are ruling.

How will idns turn out? I think even Bill Gates can't predict the outcome.

Want to know who can predict the outcome? Pull in your grandpa or great-grandma (they haven't learnt how to use the PC), ask them if they think idn.com or idn.idn looks nicer and means anything. Your grandpa will beat Bill Gates and any other techie.

Last edited by touchring; 19th July 2006 at 09:06 PM..
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Old 19th July 2006, 09:07 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

DIR or CD command were never translated on the DOS window.
But the DOS window will die in VISTA, so...
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Old 19th July 2006, 09:09 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jose
DIR or CD command were never translated on the DOS window.
But the DOS window will die in VISTA, so...

Microsoft wants it to die, it dies. It's not the users that decide.

Let's see how ICANN, CNNIC, Verisign, Microsoft behave on idns .... anyone can decipher their moves?

And BTW, if not for Microsoft, we won't be talking on this forum.
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Old 19th July 2006, 09:12 PM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Quote:
Originally Posted by touchring
Your grandpa will beat Bill Gates and any other techie.
Totally agree with you and mine has been dead 36 years!
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Old 20th July 2006, 01:07 AM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Why is IDN.idn not needed?

Before we continue, I must emphesize again that IDN.com or IDN.cn or IDN.jp is urgently needed. Don't confuse IDN domain name with its extention.


Now try these:

1) If we have only one Top Level Domain in the world, do we need extentions for domains? Of course we don't, we can just use the name without extention.

2) If we have only 2 TLDs, we can make it easy to distinguish between them by grouping them into two TLDs .1 and .2, like LOANS.1 and LOANS.2.

3) Now we have a few gTLDs and more than two hundred ccTLDs, it's certainly much better to use 2 letters or 3 letters for extentions than using numbers because letters can have better representation.

From #1, #2 and #3, we can see the basic characteristic of domain extention:

A) Extentions are used to categorize domains, so that domains can be sent to the right root server to be resolved.

B) Extentions should be as short, simple and meaningful as possible.

From A) and B) we can conclude that IDN.com, IDN.cn, IDN.jp... are in their best form now, and ICANN should start their full deployment.

Just look at this domain http://www.和平.com it's so beautiful!

And it also gets me some income every month, because so many people love PEACE.

BUT wait a minute...

Some people in non-English speaking countries suggest we should translate the extentions into their local scripts as well, with these reason:

I) They don't have to shift the key to type the Latin extention.

II) They feel proud to see the extention in their own language.

I do know why I) and II) because I am a Chinese and I speak and write the language. But I can't find a sufficient reason to create a new "XN--" TLD in the root to satisfy our unnecessary wish.

I) Microsoft just need spending 15 minutes to modify the browser to allowed us to enter .cn or .com during the Chinese input mode without shifting.

II) Chinese are very familiar with Latin letters, they learn Pinyin in their elementary school and Latin letters are part of their life. When China sent its astronauts to the Space, all Chinese should feel proud to see the word 中国 printed on the Spaceship. But we should not print 中国 all over the places like washroom, bedroom, diningroom ... to make us proud, and certainly not at the domain extention where the simpler is the best.

If .cn, you only need 2 keystrokes. if .中国, you need 9 strokes by Pinyin Input Method (zhongguo + "Enter"). (9 - 2 = 7 strokes more)

Suppose China will have 500M netizens in the near future, and each net user enter average 10 domains a day.

500M x 7 x 10 x 365 = 12,775,000M = 12.775 Trillion strokes per year.

What a waste of human energy, not to mention if 1/3 of the users have IQ like me and input (zhongguo + "Enter") wrong one in every 3 entries .

Yes, some people now would say they have no problem inputing .中国 and that they like .中国 better, but when put it into practical use, the truth "simpler is better" will prevail, people will prefer .cn.

As for IDN.com, "com" has nothing to imply pride. There will be no one would feel proud to use 和平.公司 or 和平.商业. So, it's better for IDN.com to remain IDN.com, the king of all.

During this confused time of looking for names to map "com" to, I would like to quote a word of wisdom from China's "Art of War".

"以不变应万变" (No change is the best change)
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Last edited by Giant; 20th July 2006 at 01:35 AM..
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Old 20th July 2006, 02:34 AM
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Re: IDN.IDN question on DNFORUM...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant
"以不变应万变" (No change is the best change)
Also said as "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
Good information and compelling arguement Giant.
But...don't forget our other friend (.net) along the way. lol
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