Hidden Reserves at Auction

[Rubber Duck]

This is a highly contentious subject. We need to get some consenus on whether or not hidden reserves are acceptable on the Auctions of this Form. Please vote in the attached poll and express and views you might have.

[vgemito]

RD: I know that you are on the record as opposing auction reserves, as I am in favoring them (see Damnatio Memoriae thread, General Discussion).

However, I think such a poll is premature, since it would be more meaningful after the subject has been fully debated.

At the same time, I find the language of the poll prejudicial. The word "hidden" I think reflects your own belief that there is something deceptive about auction reserves. To my mind reserves are not a question of deception but rather of protecting the interests of the seller, so of course I think the term "private reserve" much more appropriate and fair.

Regards

[idn]

Reserves COULD be allowed if and only if the reserve amount is pm'ed to Olney, a moderator or another designated individual. It could be as simple as establishing a mailbox with the username "reserve".

Maybe premium members should only be allowed reserve auctions

[sunsei21]

well this is not quite ebay so reserves could be raised at will if private im assumming not saying it happens that way but sennse a reserve is just a min sale price it should be treatd as such unless the purpose of the auction is jusst to get a idea of what people are willing to pay

[gammascalper]

Originally Posted by idn

Reserves COULD be allowed if and only if the reserve amount is pm'ed to Olney, a moderator or another designated individual. It could be as simple as establishing a mailbox with the username "reserve".

Maybe premium members should only be allowed reserve auctions

I was thinking about a vb plug-in for which they have one for almost anything, but the mailbox idea would work -- and it's free.

[Armadillo]

The "private reserve" should be enforcable and noted that one exists in the auction. Otherwise it can just be used as a fishing expedition to see what one can get for his domain with no intention of actually selling it. It's very valuable information and I wish I had that info on all my domains, but it is a waste of time and effort for the potential buyers.

Armadillo

P.S. Don't know if it is feasible for the mods to monitor and enforce this type of deal.

[idn]

You could limit reserve auctions to say one or two per member per month.

There is an advantage to MINIMAL reserve auctions for everyone.

By the way, in my mind this does not exist: "Any Reserves should be visible"

A reserve that is visible is a minimum asking price.

[Giant]

Originally Posted by Armadillo

The "private reserve" should be enforcable and noted that one exists in the auction. Otherwise it can just be used as a fishing expedition to see what one can get for his domain with no intention of actually selling it. It's very valuable information and I wish I had that info on all my domains, but it is a waste of time and effort for the potential buyers.

Armadillo

P.S. Don't know if it is feasible for the mods to monitor and enforce this type of deal.

This is what I think too.

It's slow time, so it's good we have a subject to chat . But if we want a quick solution, my opinion is just let sellers have 2 options: No reserve or A visible reserve.

[idn]

Originally Posted by Armadillo

The "private reserve" should be enforcable and noted that one exists in the auction.

Of course it should be noted in the auction, otherwise, it is not a reserve!

[Giant]

Originally Posted by idn

A reserve that is visible is a minimum asking price.

It is, if the seller is not allowed to change the reserved price.

BUT

If we allow visible reserve we should allow the seller to lower the reserve any time. This will give buyers incentive to bid even lower than the reserve price, and the seller can decide to sell it to the highest bidder any time by lowering the reserve.

This method will help attracting more buyers to the forum, to do more biddings.

[idn]

Originally Posted by Giant

This is what I think too.

It's slow time, so it's good we have a subject to chat . But if we want a quick solution, my opinion is just let sellers have 2 options: No reserve or A visible reserve.

A visible reserve is a minimum asking price.

No need for a visible reserve in my opinion.

The purpose of a reserve for a seller is to start an auction off at a low price and allow buyers to get "interested" in the auction. It actually can create impulsive buying (a good thing).

Also, it allows buyers to basically say hey, I don't know how much you want for the domain, but if you want to sell it this is what I am offering. Many times reserves are not met, but deals are made. Much different scenario than: “I am taking $X,XXX offers on this domain, send me a pm”

Originally Posted by Giant

It is, if the seller is not allowed to change the reserved price.

If we allow visible reserve we should allow the seller to lower the reserve any time. This will give buyers incentive to bid even lower than the reserve price, and the seller can decide to sell it to the highest bidder any time by lowering the reserve.

This method will help attracting more buyers to the forum, to do more biddings.

Sorry Giant, no offense, but I think you just described a minimum asking price. People lower their minimum asking prices all the time and you are right, it attracts buyers.

Reserves I view as completely different.

[Giant]

Originally Posted by idn

Sorry Giant, no offense, but I think you just described a minimum asking price. People lower their minimum asking prices all the time and you are right, it attracts buyers.

Reserves I view as completely different.

I said if the reserve is not allowed to be lowered, then it's a minimum asking price. I just added the word "BUT".

[Armadillo]

idn, you could put a "mental reserve" on your acution at whatever price you like, not tell anyone and change it at will if there are no rules.

(edited)
Armadillo

[alpha]

As a buyer I hate the concept of reserve auction.

But as a moderator, I will happily accept PM's from sellers stating what their reverve is - should we agree to go down that route; on one condition - that I am asked each time if I will do it, otherwise it effectively excludes me from bidding on any reserve auctions.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by vgemito

RD: I know that you are on the record as opposing auction reserves, as I am in favoring them (see Damnatio Memoriae thread, General Discussion).

However, I think such a poll is premature, since it would be more meaningful after the subject has been fully debated.

At the same time, I find the language of the poll prejudicial. The word "hidden" I think reflects your own belief that there is something deceptive about auction reserves. To my mind reserves are not a question of deception but rather of protecting the interests of the seller, so of course I think the term "private reserve" much more appropriate and fair.

Regards

This is semantics, the word Hidden means exactly that. A hidden reserve is a licence for the seller to scotch the deal at any given juncture for whatever reason he sees fit. Yes, the implication clearly is that it leaves ground for deception and that doubt will always be there until this practice is eliminated.

[idn]

Originally Posted by Armadillo

idn, you could put a "mental reserve" on your acution at whatever price you like, not tell anyone and change it at will if there are no rules.

(edited)
Armadillo

When did I say no rules? I actually offered the suggestion of a private reserve mailbox.

Originally Posted by Giant

I said if the reserve is not allowed to be lowered, then it's a minimum asking price. I just added the word "BUT".

We are just defining minimum asking price in different ways.

Originally Posted by Rubber Duck

A hidden reserve is a licence for the seller to scotch the deal at any given juncture for whatever reason he sees fit.

Not if a system is in place, the question really is whether or not it is worth implementing a system.

[burnsinternet]

I think a 'reserve' is silly in an auction. What is the point of a minimum bid being different than the reserve. It will be annoying to see a minimum price of $1.00 with a $xxx or x,xxx reserve.

What is the point of setting the low expectations? On Ebay, you see thousands of sales threads at one time, so it attracts bargain shoppers. If that is what you want, that is what you will get. But I envision the inevitable posts bemoaning low sales prices or no sales due to the huge span between $xx minimum bid and $x,xxx reserve.

If you want to dump something fast to bargain shoppers, set a low minimum. If you cannot part with a domain for less than $x,xxx then don't waste everyone's time posting a minimum bid price at $xx. If you want to fish for whales, don't set bait for minnows.

[vgemito]

This thread seemingly has pre-empted discussion of the subject begun (or rather continued) in my original thread Damnatio Memoriae, General Discussion. I invite you to visit it. There I outlined a simple way to avoid most objections to the potential nefarious effects of auction reserves, to wit:

1) Require that sellers wishing to keep a reserve specify an estimated selling range, for example $2,000-3,000.

2) Require that any reserve not exceed the high estimate figure.

In such a sale, with a high estimate of $3,000 the reserve will most probably be lower, but it would let everyone know that if you bid $3,000 you are assured of concluding that sale provided someone doesn't outbid you.

In the meantime, there would be a guiding rule in place without moderators having to monitor every reserve - an impossible burden.

Some day this forum might like to host auctions by heavy hitters. In that case, reserves protecting the seller's property will be a necessity.

The alternative is to abandon the fiction of having auctions altogether.

Some people don't like the uncertainty of auctions. Then, they should stay away from them.

Finally, to keep this in persepective, bear in mind that private reserves aren't the real problem: phantom bidders are.

Regards

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by vgemito

This thread seemingly has pre-empted discussion of the subject begun (or rather continued) in my original thread Damnatio Memoriae, General Discussion. I invite you to visit it. There I outlined a simple way to avoid most objections to the potential nefarious effects of auction reserves, to wit:

1) Require that sellers wishing to keep a reserve specify an estimated selling range, for example $2,000-3,000.

2) Require that any reserve not exceed the high estimate figure.

In such a sale, with a high estimate of $3,000 the reserve will most probably be lower, but it would let everyone know that if you bid $3,000 you are assured of concluding that sale provided someone doesn't outbid you.

In the meantime, there would be a guiding rule in place without moderators having to monitor every reserve - an impossible burden.

Some day this forum might like to host auctions by heavy hitters. In that case, reserves protecting the seller's property will be a necessity.

The alternative is to abandon the fiction of having auctions altogether.

Some people don't like the uncertainty of auctions. Then, they should stay away from them.

Finally, to keep this in persepective, bear in mind that private reserves aren't the real problem: phantom bidders are.

Regards

I haven't got the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

All these proposals bring is muddle and confusion to the mind of the buyers, which is not condusive to reaching a contract agreement. What is need is a clear understanding of how competitive buyers are offer to pay for a domain, but only on the clear understanding that offers are valid and will be excepted. Anything else is just playing games. Professional domainers, our buyers, don't have the time or the patience for such nonsense. It just brings the Auction Forum into disrepute. There are many reasons why the sales forums are not functioning properly but the is the deviceive of all problem of all. It should be stopped and it should be stopped now. It is not me that you should be listening to but the polite words of the some of the serious buyers on this forum, which frankly go largely unnoticed because there concerns are being ignored. If you want to play game do so in the Clubhouse, but for the commercial interests of all involved please keep it out of the sales threads.

[bwhhisc]

Vgemito- please show us another domain forum where they run auctions like you are suggesting with hidden (or range of) reserve.

Keep it simple, if you won't sell a domain for less than $500 then put that amount on the auction for all to see as a starting bid. No sense people bidding $ 25, $35 etc. etc. what a waste of time.

Imagine an auction with a $500 blind "reserve" you could have up to 49 bids in $10 increments totalling $490, before you declare "reserve not met"- sale over. I am personally not in favor of any type of "blind reserve" and most likely would not participate in those auctions.