Exactly how would the new Chinese .[IDN tld]s be accomodated?

[kenne]

I know this has come up before, but I can't find the thread.

So here's what I don't understand:
The Chinese government whats IDN top level tlds, so that people won't have to type in .com or .net. That's well and good. So they pushed a series of domains only usable in china: domains that looks like
[IDN].中国;
[IDN].公司;
[IDN].网络;
even [IDN] all by itself without any tlds (now that's getting weird...)!

In future when ICANN comes to make an accomodation for these IDNs how will it looks like? I'm guessing that ".com" and ".net" will be mapped to their local language equivalent, so that registrant of [IDN].com (call this person Tom) will automatically be seen as [IDN].[IDN equivalent of .com].

However, the closest IDN equivalent of .com is [IDN].公司! Someone else (call this person Du) has already registered [IDN].公司 through a chinese registrar. So this will create a dillema:
choice 1: one of Tom and Du will be screwed, essentially losing the use of his domain.
choice 2: .com maps to say ".商" instead of .公司; this creates confusion in the market place, because the two are very similar. not that this reasoning has stopped icann from putting out both .biz and .com, but still.


Anyway, where can I read the details of how the ICANN plan to accomodate [IDN] tlds? if they plan to do it through mapping, how will .com, .net, .biz map?

[IDNCowboy]

Originally Posted by kenne

I know this has come up before, but I can't find the thread.

So here's what I don't understand:
The Chinese government whats IDN top level tlds, so that people won't have to type in .com or .net. That's well and good. So they pushed a series of domains only usable in china: domains that looks like
[IDN].中国;
[IDN].公司;
[IDN].网络;
even [IDN] all by itself without any tlds (now that's getting weird...)!

In future when ICANN comes to make an accomodation for these IDNs how will it looks like? I'm guessing that ".com" and ".net" will be mapped to their local language equivalent, so that registrant of [IDN].com (call this person Tom) will automatically be seen as [IDN].[IDN equivalent of .com].

However, the closest IDN equivalent of .com is [IDN].公司! Someone else (call this person Du) has already registered [IDN].公司 through a chinese registrar. So this will create a dillema:
choice 1: one of Tom and Du will be screwed, essentially losing the use of his domain.
choice 2: .com maps to say ".商" instead of .公司; this creates confusion in the market place, because the two are very similar. not that this reasoning has stopped icann from putting out both .biz and .com, but still.


Anyway, where can I read the details of how the ICANN plan to accomodate [IDN] tlds? if they plan to do it through mapping, how will .com, .net, .biz map?

The one that registered .chinese characters will lose out as the "registrar" isn't icann accredited and i believe you need a plugin to view it... They pretty much went around icann and did it.

If China wants an essentially global marketplace they will no doubt work with ICANN.

[kenne]

Originally Posted by Jeff

The one that registered .chinese characters will lose out as the "registrar" isn't icann accredited and i believe you need a plugin to view it... They pretty much went around icann and did it.

If China wants an essentially global marketplace they will no doubt work with ICANN.

So you think that those who registered ".公司" ".网络" from Chinese registrar will be screwed? I think it's very unfair, and I suspect the Chinese will probably prefer the 2nd solution: ie, map ".com" and ".net" to something other than ".公司" or ".网络"


I just found a post by Dave explaining this:

Originally Posted by Dwrixon

Not sure if Korea is doing this, but China certainly uses local characters to represent the .CN and has it own version of dot com and dot net that resolve using the current plug-in.
It is a Balkanisation of the net to some extent, but China seem keen to go along with ICANN provided ICANN makes some consessions. The first of these is to give China and others non-AscII ccTLD extensions direct on the DNS. I think their versions of dot com and dot net will then effectively become .com.cn and .net.cn.

However, i'm still confused as to what will happen. So today Mr Du who registers "[IDN].公司" "[IDN].网络" from Chinese registrar will in fact be getting .com.cn and .net.cn; But after the agreement between Chinese and Icann is put into effect, Mr Du types in [IDN].公司, suddenly he'll be going to Tom's registered page of [IDN].com? So Mr Du is still kind of screwed...

[IDNCowboy]

Originally Posted by kenne

So you think that those who registered ".公司" ".网络" from Chinese registrar will be screwed? I think it's very unfair, and I suspect the Chinese will probably prefer the 2nd solution: ie, map ".com" and ".net" to something other than ".公司" or ".网络"


I just found a post by Dave explaining this:



However, i'm still confused as to what will happen. So today Mr Du who registers "[IDN].公司" "[IDN].网络" from Chinese registrar will in fact be getting .com.cn and .net.cn; But after the agreement between Chinese and Icann is put into effect, Mr Du types in [IDN].公司, suddenly he'll be going to Tom's registered page of [IDN].com? So Mr Du is still kind of screwed...

again ICann will bring them wayy more business than some company in singapore .... ICANN will pull it off definitely

[gammascalper]

Agreed with Jeff.

China will not bat an eyelash when it joins the ICANN consortium with regard to IDN.IDN implementation. It'll simply be seen as the correct strategic course for the greater good. They'll expect minor casualties.

I don't see them trying to accomodate the webmasters who bought a package of goods from a small foreign company with an obvious profit agenda and dwindling subscription.

Almost 2 million people will be displaced during construction of the 3 Gorges Dam. They didn't poll any villagers to see if they wanted to move or not. They just did it. This will be no different.

[IDNCowboy]

Originally Posted by gammascalper

Agreed with Jeff.

China will not bat an eyelash when it joins the ICANN consortium with regard to IDN.IDN implementation. It'll simply be seen as the correct strategic course for the greater good. They'll expect minor casualties.

I don't see them trying to accomodate the webmasters who bought a package of goods from a small foreign company with an obvious profit agenda and dwindling subscription.

Almost 2 million people will be displaced during construction of the 3 Gorges Dam. They didn't poll any villagers to see if they wanted to move or not. They just did it. This will be no different.

They usally don't view foreign companies the same as Chinese companies anyway..... so they prob hate the company in singapore and Icann but Icann will bring them way more business... nuff said

Even in Japan they have that form to fill out if you want to do business in japan but are in another country

[Rubber Duck]

All that will happen is that the Chinese domains will become second level, which is effectively what they always were and they will get the dot CN or 中国 stuck on the end. The dot CN domain registration policy enables them to do exactly as they please.

Dave

[IDNCowboy]

Originally Posted by Dwrixon

All that will happen is that the Chinese domains will become second level, which is effectively what they always were and they will get the dot CN or 中国 stuck on the end. The dot CN domain registration policy enables them to do exactly as they please.

Dave

so...
i thought they had seperate idn names for .com .net and .cn ?

and i thought the ones from the singapore company were gonna be the ones to do the switch... so you'r esaying they're essentially gonna rearrange the .com.cn's

(so what does happen to the singapore company? they weren't doing .com.cn's but their own .com .net .china and .japan - what happens to those?)

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by Jeff

so...
i thought they had seperate idn names for .com .net and .cn ?

and i thought the ones from the singapore company were gonna be the ones to do the switch... so you'r esaying they're essentially gonna rearrange the .com.cn's

(so what does happen to the singapore company? they weren't doing .com.cn's but their own .com .net .china and .japan - what happens to those?)

Apart from China, they will disappear like the morning dew. Within China, I think you get this in combination with .com.cn and .net.cn and that is what they really are, except because of the DNS tinkering the dot CN isn't currently required for the IDN form. If China want its IDNs installed in the ICANN root, it is going to have to play by the rules. There may be some scope for negociation, but ICANN isn't going to let it highjack the whole system.

Dave

[bwhhisc]

(QUOTE)Almost 2 million people will be displaced during construction of the 3 Gorges Dam. They didn't poll any villagers to see if they wanted to move or not. They just did it. This will be no different.[/quote]

I can tell you this is true! The Chinese government has "relocated" our manufacturing faciltity for fiberglass statues 3 times in the last two years when they wanted "our" building for something else. Shuts down production...screws up our orders and shipping and basically has everything moved to their choice of new location and then, back into production. If you want a Greek or Italian statue (now made in China) its www.propworld.com. LOL!

[touchring]

Ok, i'm now in Xiamen. I can access chinese idn.com, .net, using my private dns server without any issues.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by touchring

Ok, i'm now in Xiamen. I can access chinese idn.com, .net, using my private dns server without any issues.

Just for clarification, those are Verisign idn.com?

Dave

[touchring]

Yes, pls see attached screencapture.

Comment: Attachment reattached due to size limitation.

[kenne]

Cool! One'd think the Chinese government could have waited (for a few more months maybe? ) instead of setting their own people up for losses.

Wonder how many Mr Du's are out there?

[Rubber Duck]

Hey, we have more foriegn correspondents than the BBC. This is really cool! News from around the Globe exclusively at IDNForums.com!

Dave

[idnnow]

Originally Posted by kenne

Cool! One'd think the Chinese government could have waited (for a few more months maybe? ) instead of setting their own people up for losses.

Wonder how many Mr Du's are out there?

I don't think there are many Mr. Du's, because not many people buying IDN.公司 or IDN.网络. A lot of IDN.cn were sold, but these are ok, and IDN.中国 is free with the registration.

Yes, I believe people that bought IDN.公司 or IDN.网络 are wasting their money.

[touchring]

Btw, i can't access both sedo.com (sedo.cn is ok) and namedrive.com from Xiamen. afternic.com is fine. for the case of Sedo, even my latin domain parked at Sedo is blocked. btw, the strange thing is that i can ping both of them.

Any more reports from fellow idner based on China will be appreciated - well, we know that idnforums.com is not yet blocked. :-)

Latest report, i just had email correspodence with the nyc.com guy (i think Dave knows him) that had shanghai.com, hangzhou.com, among many others top chinese cities - as far as he knows, there's no global block on idn.com - individual websites maybe blocked though for their content or for even the DNS used.

[touchring]

Ok, i'm back from Xiamen trip.

Heard 2 different internet portal radios commercials while i was on the cab to the airport - commercials are in mandarin, even the website name is in mandarin, but towards the end, guess what, the presenter will say out the name of the website in English, e.g. xnol.com -> XNOL and the .com is spoken in English, DOT COM.

The Chinese do not localize .com unlike japanese and korean. .COM is spoken exactly in English along with the url. What i had always known is now confirmed - the Chinese use domains exactly as Americans do.

Also saw a Coca-cola advertisement that uses iCoke.cn. Coke.cn apparently does not belong to them - lesson learnt - no point trying to be smart and register trademark related domains in China, people just add 'i', or numbers to get their domain.

[kenne]

Originally Posted by touchring

Ok, i'm back from Xiamen trip.

Heard 2 different internet portal radios commercials while i was on the cab to the airport - commercials are in mandarin, even the website name is in mandarin, but towards the end, guess what, the presenter will say out the name of the website in English, e.g. xnol.com -> XNOL and the .com is spoken in English, DOT COM.

So glad Touchring was right there. The url xnol.com is still in ascii, right? If the asci url is read out in the ascii way, that seems natural enough....

I'm thinking, that until Icann and Chinese reach agreement and implement IDN.IDN at root level, I see huge amount of confusion between [IDN].com and CNNIC's version [IDN].公司; In fact one can not promote one, without promoting the other; hence no one will want to spend a lot of money promoting or buying either.

That in turn means [IDN].cn will have a significant (depending on the timing of root level IDN.IDN) headstart over [IDN].com and [IDN].net

So the key question is when the Icann's version of IDN.IDN will be implemented. Any ideas? What kind of technical or nontechnical obstacles remains?

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by kenne

So glad Touchring was right there. The url xnol.com is still in ascii, right? If the asci url is read out in the ascii way, that seems natural enough....

I'm thinking, that until Icann and Chinese reach agreement and implement IDN.IDN at root level, I see huge amount of confusion between [IDN].com and CNNIC's version [IDN].公司; In fact one can not promote one, without promoting the other; hence no one will want to spend a lot of money promoting or buying either.

That in turn means [IDN].cn will have a significant (depending on the timing of root level IDN.IDN) headstart over [IDN].com and [IDN].net

So the key question is when the Icann's version of IDN.IDN will be implemented. Any ideas? What kind of technical or nontechnical obstacles remains?

As I understand it implementation of IDN for Dot CN on the ICANN route servers is imminent, whatever. Technically, there appear to be no serious barriers for implementing IDN.IDN dot coms within 12 to 18 months. This could possibly be slowed by political wrangling, but I think that is unlikely. I believe ICANN are on the verge of deciding whether to start putting extensions into the Root Server, or opt for the DNAME solution. I guess if the go for the former and not the latter for some larger countries, the dot COM and NET will also get written in as well. Personally, I think the DNAME solution will be adopted. Not all servers can operate DNAME, but the legacy machines can do the same thing only slower using CNAME. I don't think it is too much of a problem as I think most of this out of date hardware is based in the US, where demand for IDN is going to be almost non-existent!

Dave