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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 26th October 2006, 10:35 PM
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Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

261275 brought this to our attention earlier:

VeriSign Now Offering Chinese Character Extensions
VeriSign Digital Brand Management Services is now offering the following Chinese character extensions:

• .中国 (.china)
• .公司 (.company)
• .网络 (.network)

Domain names cannot exceed 20 characters (each constituting element is considered as one character). VeriSign is offering this service as a reseller of .CN names; we are not acting either as a registry or registrar in this regard. For further details, please contact your VeriSign Digital Brand Management Services Account Team or Enterprise Customer Support.


http://www.verisign.com/Resources/Di...ge_039521.html

It would seem to me that it is clear from this that there is a three way deal over IDN.IDN between Verisign, CNNIC and ICANN.

Verisign would not be pushing these if they did not have an accord with CNNIC. Previously Verisign has been contesting these extensions. That can no longer be the case. It would seem that Verisign is prepared to support China on getting these extension into the route, and may very well have taken our advice to plump for alternatives which will probably serve them better.

It would appear from where I am sitting that DNAME is a done deal.
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Old 26th October 2006, 10:49 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Digital Brand Management Services sells lots of different ccTLD's and is a seperate part of Verisign compared to Registry Services. They're just reselling IDN .CN's. Note they do not explain exactly how the .IDN bit is delivered.

I think their announcement poses more questions that it actually answers.
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Old 26th October 2006, 10:58 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

If you are claiming Intellectual Property Rights on a product and you believe that a competitor is infringing those rights, it is just about legal suicide to start acting as an agent for your competitor's product. By endorsing it in that way you would effectively be waiving any claim to that Intellectual Property goodbye for good.

Whilst I agree large corporations sometimes act like multi-headed hydra, I think it highly unlikely that two arms of the organisation would be so out of touch, as to effectively be playing on opposite teams, especially in a political charge sphere like China. Either way, you can take it that China will get those extension into the root and be granted control of them by ICANN. Whether you interpret that as being with Verisigns blessing or not, I shall leave to you to deduce.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbert
Digital Brand Management Services sells lots of different ccTLD's and is a seperate part of Verisign compared to Registry Services. They're just reselling IDN .CN's. Note they do not explain exactly how the .IDN bit is delivered.

I think their announcement poses more questions that it actually answers.
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:03 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

It would be interesting to ascertain if Verisign is attempting to TM 公司 in the USA as a design mark.

Although the last time someone tried to force a gTLD based on a TM (.web) ICANN refused to play ball.
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:07 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbert
It would be interesting to ascertain if Verisign is attempting to TM 公司 in the USA as a design mark.

Although the last time someone tried to force a gTLD based on a TM (.web) ICANN refused to play ball.
How can they possibly go for a design mark when they are acting as CNNICs agents?

If you set up a Porshe dealership in the US, it doesn't give the right to register their Trademarks, indeed the opposite is true because you are acknowledging and reinforcing their use of them.

Whilst 公司 (.company) and 网络 (.network) have been contested, .中国 (.china) never has and realistically never could be.

Obviously, this creates a little more uncertainty around you name 公司.com. Does it make it significantly less valuable in my estimation? No, almost certainly not. Where it matters and where they understand these things it will still be as intrinsically valuable as it always would have been.
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 26th October 2006 at 11:12 PM..
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:11 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

That's interesting. Good to see them getting along.
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:14 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
How can they possibly go for a design mark when they are acting as CNNICs agents?

If you set up a Porshe dealership in the US, it doesn't give the right to register their Trademarks, indeed the opposite is true because you are acknowledging and reinforcing their use of them.
It does if you're owned by Porsche, or Porsche assigns those marks over to you :^)

Plus CNNIC probably can't register it as a mark in China. That wouldn't stop Verisign from doing so in the USA, where 公司 would have zero meaning to the USPTO attorneys.
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:22 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck

It would appear from where I am sitting that DNAME is a done deal.
If that's true, then if you own <CHINESE-IDN>.com, then you own <CHINESE-IDN>.公司 ?

(Which would mean DNAME is real - but I still don't know, from what I've seen so far)
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:23 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbert
It does if you're owned by Porsche, or Porsche assigns those marks over to you :^)

Plus CNNIC probably can't register it as a mark in China. That wouldn't stop Verisign from doing so in the USA, where 公司 would have zero meaning to the USPTO attorneys.
Correct on both points. However, registering a Trademark actually infers no special rights in law (except perhaps when it comes to individual domain registration, in the presence of a senile old fool). It is merely an act of registration. OK, it should be refused, if it known at the time you had no legitimate rights to the mark. However, all it does is record that you are claiming to be using it at the time of registration. If subsequently, a prior claim of usage can be reasonably demonstrated, then your registration isn't worth the paper it is written on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by idnowner
If that's true, then if you own <CHINESE-IDN>.com, then you own <CHINESE-IDN>.公司 ?

(Which would mean DNAME is real - but I still don't know, from what I've seen so far)
No, it would seem to mean the opposite, but it is not such a big deal. Verisign's dot com and net will simply map to other perhaps even more appropriate symbols. Whatever is choosen, however, will be enourmously valuable by virtue of the fact that it does map to dot com, or dot net.
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 26th October 2006 at 11:26 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:29 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
If that's true, then if you own <CHINESE-IDN>.com, then you own <CHINESE-IDN>.公司 ?
No, Verisign would most likely alias the .com to different characters. Since .公司 already exists (and IDN.公司 and IDN.com are two completely different domains), aliasing .com -> .公司 would not be possible.
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:33 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefabfive
No, Verisign would most likely alias the .com to different characters. Since .公司 already exists (and IDN.公司 and IDN.com are two completely different domains), aliasing .com -> .公司 would not be possible.
Then there will be two versions of Chinese (dot-com).IDN?
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:42 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by idnowner
Then there will be two versions of Chinese (dot-com).IDN?
If Verisign choose 司 as their Alias for dot com. I know it probably isn't a good candidate but for the sake of argument.

司.com would effectively be 司.司 which we might take as [com].com

公司.公司 would be gonzi.gonzi or [company].company

You could of course also have

司.公司

and

公司.司 which would belong to Drewbert and Co.

Those ending in .司 would be Verisign and those end in .公司 would be CNNIC.
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:43 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

There is the possibility that CNNIC will map .公司 to .com.cn, but that is just rumor. Maybe they would eventually make .公司 -> .公司.中国. The would leave the door open to .com -> .公司

Since .com.cn does not currently allow IDNs (IIRC) .公司 -> .com.cn would not be a problem. But again all speculation at this point.
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:51 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefabfive
There is the possibility that CNNIC will map .公司 to .com.cn, but that is just rumor. Maybe they would eventually make .公司 -> .公司.中国. The would leave the door open to .com -> .公司

Since .com.cn does not currently allow IDNs (IIRC) .公司 -> .com.cn would not be a problem. But again all speculation at this point.

Well, if Verisign is already offering .公司, then I'd like to know what it really is. And if they do map it to anything other than .com, then I see a really screwed-up solution for what .com will be assigned as a DNAME solution.
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:52 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefabfive
There is the possibility that CNNIC will map .公司 to .com.cn, but that is just rumor. Maybe they would eventually make .公司 -> .公司.中国. The would leave the door open to .com -> .公司

Since .com.cn does not currently allow IDNs (IIRC) .公司 -> .com.cn would not be a problem. But again all speculation at this point.
I think that rumour is a racing certainty. That is clearly their intention but they cannot do it yet without splitting the internet. Once DNAME is approved their is no real problem mapping first level virtual IDN to second level actual root domains. This means that China could have any number of top level TLDs without treading on anyones turf. There is no need to add the .中国, it just makes it clumsy. Mapping .com -> .公司 is never going to happen now, but it probably wasn't that desirable anyway.
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:56 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Duck
Mapping .com -> .公司 is never going to happen now, but it probably wasn't that desirable anyway.
I thought .公司 was the best match for .com. If not .公司, then what? And, I might be pissed if I was the one who bought 公司.com
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:57 PM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by idnowner
Well, if Verisign is already offering .公司, then I'd like to know what it really is. And if they do map it to anything other than .com, then I see a really screwed-up solution for what .com will be assigned as a DNAME solution.
They are reselling the CNNIC domains in just the same way many others have.

We have had previous lengthy discussion with our Chinese experts and it was generally agreed that there a more suitable alternatives and that having two characters after the dot means that they don't exactly roll off the tongue.

You better get Giant in here because he will remember what the proposals that were actually forwarded to Verisign actually were. I remember the consensus for dot net was .网, but I have forgotten what was favoured for dot com.
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Old 27th October 2006, 12:00 AM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Anyway, I would really like to know the status of DNAME - at least for Japanese IDNs. Seems nobody knows yet.
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Old 27th October 2006, 12:02 AM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by idnowner
I thought .公司 was the best match for .com. If not .公司, then what? And, I might be pissed if I was the one who bought 公司.com
Not really Gonzi or .公司 means Company. Dot Com is an abbreviation of Commercial, so it was never really a perfect match. Because China has pushed forward with IDN.IDN solutions and ICANN hasn't Verisign cannot claim usage so their claim over the extension was always weak to say the least.

In negociations it is always necessary to concede something. Sometimes it is a useful ploy to place a lot more value on something than it really holds so you can effectively trade with glass beads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by idnowner
Anyway, I would really like to know the status of DNAME - at least for Japanese IDNs. Seems nobody knows yet.
Verisigns first choice was in their DNAME paper, but you will have difficult getting the characters out. I think they were extracted and placed in some of the older threads on here.

Oh, to have a forum where you can search on the Unicode!
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Last edited by Rubber Duck; 27th October 2006 at 12:07 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 27th October 2006, 12:16 AM
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Re: Verisign in Pact with CNNIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by idnowner
Anyway, I would really like to know the status of DNAME - at least for Japanese IDNs. Seems nobody knows yet.

We Might know more after the dec. icann meeting in brazil

They have idn mentioned twice for discussions , for tutorial and a workshop

http://www.icann.org/meetings/saopaulo/
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