Sedo getting bad press. So are IDN. Thanks SEDO.

[sarcle]

In other Sedo news, the company has added “IDN” graphics next to domains with non-roman characters:



This is likely because of user confusion. Depending on your browser and language plugins, IDNs can look very similar to english language domains. If domainers are confused by this, you can bet the web community as a large will be fooled by IDNs (read: phishing attacks to come).

http://domainnamewire.com/2007/02/16...sting-feature/

How did I know that this would give IDN a bad name. Thanks again Sedo for allowing these to be sold on your site.

[jacksonm]

Originally Posted by sarcle

How did I know that this would give IDN a bad name. Thanks again Sedo for allowing these to be sold on your site.

In the grand scheme of the domain market, sedo is just a grain of sand in a dumptruck. What do they do, maybe 100 sales a week? Most of their revenue comes from clicks and people paying for domain promotions. After watching the site for a while, I start to get the idea that they are propping up the auction listings and sales just to drive interest. Honestly, I don't trust their business model - there's just not enough transparency.

I would venture to say that 99% of domain sales happen privately, and not between "domainers" or sedo browsers, and that's not likely to change.

--
jacksonm

[Giant]

Originally Posted by sarcle

How did I know that this would give IDN a bad name. Thanks again Sedo for allowing these to be sold on your site.

Not just give IDN a bad name, the consequense is far more serious than we can see. If they let this kind of scam continue to grow, we will see a lot of casualties among IDN domainers --- more money is needed to keep renewing IDNs.

[sarcle]

Originally Posted by Giant

Not just give IDN a bad name, the consequense is far more serious than we can see. If they let this kind of scam continue to grow, we will see a lot of casualties among IDN domainers --- more money is needed to keep renewing IDNs.

This is why in the meantime development is so important.

[bwhhisc]

In the end, the biggest market for IDN are the endusers and people that speak the various international languages.

No doubt SEDO is doing a disservice to the domain industry by allowing these mixed script domains to be sold. Even EBAY has pretty much stopped the practice.

If anything, SEDO should label these "novelty domains" or "mixed script domains", NOT "idn".

To help with this situation, please take a few minutes and write to SEDO. Post letters to their guy at DNF. If they get enough mail they will react. The little bit of mail many of us sent got a "small" albeit not good solution of the little IDN label.

Lets push for them to label these "mixed script" or something appropriate... but NOT idn.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by Giant

Not just give IDN a bad name, the consequense is far more serious than we can see. If they let this kind of scam continue to grow, we will see a lot of casualties among IDN domainers --- more money is needed to keep renewing IDNs.

I don't think we need to worry about too many domains on the market now.

All the odd corners seem to be being hoovered up and the Registrars now seem to be buying dot JP in Japan.

The market dynamic is definitely moving in favour of sellers.

Not only that with Dot Mobi returning to earth and the Sedo "fix" actually apparently have some impact, the amount of investment capital pouring through the cracks in the floor is now greatly diminished.

[sarcle]

Originally Posted by bwhhisc

In the end, the biggest market for IDN are the endusers and people that speak the various international languages.

No doubt SEDO is doing a disservice to the domain industry by allowing these mixed script domains to be sold. Even EBAY has pretty muched stopped the practice.

If anything, SEDO should label these "novelty domains" or "mixed script domains", NOT "idn".

To help with this situation, please take a few minutes and write to SEDO. Post letters to their guy at DNF. If they get enough mail they will react. The little bit of mail many of us sent got a "small" albeit not good solution of the little IDN label.

Lets push for them to label these "mixed script" or something appropriate... but NOT idn.

You can let your voice be heard here in their section with the thread already started. Sedo was just looking at it today.

http://www.dnforum.com/showthread.php?t=209387

[IDNCowboy]

Originally Posted by jacksonm

In the grand scheme of the domain market, sedo is just a grain of sand in a dumptruck. What do they do, maybe 100 sales a week? Most of their revenue comes from clicks and people paying for domain promotions. After watching the site for a while, I start to get the idea that they are propping up the auction listings and sales just to drive interest. Honestly, I don't trust their business model - there's just not enough transparency.

I would venture to say that 99% of domain sales happen privately, and not between "domainers" or sedo browsers, and that's not likely to change.

--
jacksonm

They have a large chunk of the market.

[jacksonm]

Originally Posted by IDNCowboy

They have a large chunk of the market.

Not meaning to question your integrity, but do you have reliable statistics to back that up? BTW, of which market do you speak, insiders (domainers)?

I think that sedo has pulled the wool over a great many people's eyes...


--
jacksonm

[IDNCowboy]

Originally Posted by jacksonm

Not meaning to question your integrity, but do you have reliable statistics to back that up? BTW, of which market do you speak, insiders (domainers)?

I think that sedo has pulled the wool over a great many people's eyes...


--
jacksonm

Every domainer knows that they are. Not all sales are reported on dnjournal. Many do not meet their minimum requirements. Others have non disclosure agreements. They did the vodka domain sale themselves and made a ton of comission just on that.

Even on the main domain forums. Many people will choose an escrow service for high valued domains. The main escrow services are SEDO, AfterNIC and moniker.

[jacksonm]

Originally Posted by IDNCowboy

They did the vodka domain sale themselves and made a ton of comission just on that.

If you figure 3M * .1, that's barely enough to employ one person for 3 years in germany (legally)... And I know they are employing more than one person...

For an individual, that would be huge. For a tax-paying business, it's just survival. Most companies who operate on a 1-2% margin need to do 70M per year just to stay afloat.

--
jacksonm

[IDNCowboy]

Originally Posted by jacksonm

If you figure 3M * .1, that's barely enough to employ one person for 3 years in germany (legally)... And I know they are employing more than one person...

For an individual, that would be huge. For a tax-paying business, it's just survival. Most companies who operate on a 1-2% margin need to do 70M per year just to stay afloat.

--
jacksonm

Alright mr. domainer

who does the majority of the domain transactions? You come on this forum bashing sales threads etc.

I suppose you haven't seen the revenue figures of Sedo. They make millions of profit each year after expenses.

[jacksonm]

Originally Posted by IDNCowboy

Alright mr. domainer

who does the majority of the domain transactions? You come on this forum bashing sales threads etc.

I suppose you haven't seen the revenue figures of Sedo. They make millions of profit each year after expenses.

I suppose you haven't either, unless you work for them.

Come on, now, let's attempt to stay stay civil here. As a user of sedo.com, I believe that it is well within my rights and experience to be suspicious of sedo's operational practices.

I'm not bashing any sales threads, I'm just insinuating that sedo isn't all it purports to be. It doesn't take an MBA to suspect that.

As a private company, how can outsider report sedo's level of profit? They could be operating on VC with massive losses as far as I know.

I made the post as a matter of healthy debate. I am receptive to well-presented opposing viewpoints.

--
jacksonm

[IDNCowboy]

Originally Posted by jacksonm

I suppose you haven't either, unless you work for them.

Come on, now, let's attempt to stay stay civil here. As a user of sedo.com, I believe that it is well within my rights and experience to be suspicious of sedo's operational practices.

I'm not bashing any sales threads, I'm just insinuating that sedo isn't all it purports to be. It doesn't take an MBA to suspect that.

As a private company, how can outsider report sedo's level of profit? They could be operating on VC with massive losses as far as I know.

I made the post as a matter of healthy debate. I am receptive to well-presented opposing viewpoints.

--
jacksonm

Sedo had sales of approximately €30 million in the first nine months of this year. (2006) Thats just 3/4 of the year. so add another 10 million euro for example for 40 million euro

AdLink has purchased another 24% of popular domain aftermarket sales site Sedo.com for €35 million. AdLink, the online advertising and digital marketing subsidiary of Germany's United Internet, already owned 52% of Sedo (purchased in 2005), so AdLink now holds a 76% share of the company. The deal would indicate a total valuation for Sedo of about €140 million (about $183 million at current exchange rates). Sedo had sales of approximately €30 million in the first nine months of this year. Sedo's original founders still retain a share of the company and will continue to work in their present executive roles according to a report from TheAlarmClock.com.
Posted Nov. 27, 2006

http://www.dnjournal.com/archive/low...6/november.htm

I couldn't find their net profit. I'll continue looking for it but they make millions a year.

[Giant]

Hey Cowboy, be nice to our new member.

Allowing deceitful sales to hunt for victims should be seriously condemned. Making millions of dollars does not give Sedo the right to do evil.

[bramiozo]

I think you guys are missing the point, this situation was inevitable from the get-go and is simply required as a stepping stone for general acceptance in the after market. The sooner this moment would come the better, it has nothing to do with the image of idn's (the possibility for phishing domains is not new..) but the knowledge on idn's.

Idn's require more due diligence efforts then any ascii-domain, we have seen this many times on the idnforums, even idn-veterans regged nonsensical domains or just unpopular translations and not in small amounts either. Sedo is not specified as a an idn-platform for one, second it also attracts investors who have very little knowledge on domaining in general, let alone idn. As such sedo has the responsibility to provide as much information as possible about novelty domains and that without deterring any possible buyers, you want information signs, not red flags. Sedo has imo found this middle ground and is simply providing a neutral indication of names being IDN. Just look at the phishing auctions that are still active, they're still at 1/2 bids, they're frozen since the moment that the idn-indicators were put up, nevertheless the german auctions are at $x,xxx, that's bullshit idn v.s. real idn, a contrast we should be cheerful about.

I read several times that you think sedo should filter out these names, but as I said sedo will not actively remove phishing domains because they want to avoid liability and no that's not a contradiction. What sedo can do is provide information about the nature of the domain as best they can without deterring any potential buyers in case the name is not meant as a phishing domain. In case you force a translation for each idn as Drewbert put forward you are left with the question of ambiguity, popularity and valid vs invalid mixed character domains. I will ensure you that problems will increase once sedo opens up all the languages for bidding, especially if sedo doesn't make it perfectly clear that the buyer has to do his/her own due diligence.

I wrote quite a bit here (before the idn-tag was put in place);
http://www.dailydomainer.com/200764-...one-blind.html

This is an awareness issue, the moment these sign's can be removed is the moment idn's are accepted. The message this community should imo put forward is that idn's require effort more so than ascii-domains, we then have to provide the means for the people to learn about idn.

[Giant]

Originally Posted by bramiozo

I think you guys are missing the point, this situation was inevitable from the get-go and is simply required as a stepping stone for general acceptance in the after market. The sooner this moment would come the better, it has nothing to do with the image of idn's (the possibility for phishing domains is not new..) but the knowledge on idn's.

Idn's require more due diligence efforts then any ascii-domain, we have seen this many times on the idnforums, even idn-veterans regged nonsensical domains or just unpopular translations and not in small amounts either. Sedo is not specified as a an idn-platform for one, second it also attracts investors who have very little knowledge on domaining in general, let alone idn. As such sedo has the responsibility to provide as much information as possible about novelty domains and that without deterring any possible buyers, you want information signs, not red flags. Sedo has imo found this middle ground and is simply providing a neutral indication of names being IDN. Just look at the phishing auctions that are still active, they're still at 1/2 bids, they're frozen since the moment that the idn-indicators were put up, nevertheless the german auctions are at $x,xxx, that's bullshit idn v.s. real idn, a contrast we should be cheerful about.

I read several times that you think sedo should filter out these names, but as I said sedo will not actively remove phishing domains because they want to avoid liability and no that's not a contradiction. What sedo can do is provide information about the nature of the domain as best they can without deterring any potential buyers in case the name is not meant as a phishing domain. In case you force a translation for each idn as Drewbert put forward you are left with the question of ambiguity, popularity and valid vs invalid mixed character domains. I will ensure you that problems will increase once sedo opens up all the languages for bidding, especially if sedo doesn't make it perfectly clear that the buyer has to do his/her own due diligence.

I wrote quite a bit here (before the idn-tag was put in place);
http://www.dailydomainer.com/200764-...one-blind.html

This is an awareness issue, the moment these sign's can be removed is the moment idn's are accepted. The message this community should imo put forward is that idn's require effort more so than ascii-domains, we then have to provide the means for the people to learn about idn.

We are here condemning cheating. We are here condemning Sedo provide a platform for cheaters to hunt for victims.

We don't oppose people register a novelty domain, we condemn people register a domain to cheat. The intention and design to rip people off is a crime, regardless what product they use to commit the crime.

We don't oppose Sedo to let people sell IDN on their website, we just demand Sedo to have the capability to protect its customers from scammers. If Sedo is unable to help the buyers understand what they are buying and Sedo pockets the commission of the sale, Sedo is deemed an accomplice.

Not all domains start with xn-- are IDN domains. A xn-- domain is considered an IDN domain only when it's unicode means something in a language or languages.

[bwhhisc]

Bram, you wrote a good response.
The best solution if Sedo wishes to allow these sales is to label "them" MIXED SCRIPT domains, and label true idns...IDN.
That would truly differentiate these sales to potential buyers.

[bramiozo]

Originally Posted by Giant

We are here condemning cheating. We are here condemning Sedo provide a platform for cheaters to hunt for victims.

We don't oppose people register a novelty domain, we condemn people register a domain to cheat. The intention and design to rip people off is a crime, regardless what product they use to commit the crime.

We don't oppose Sedo to let people sell IDN on their website, we just demand Sedo to have the capability to protect its customers from scammers. If Sedo is unable to help the buyers understand what they are buying and Sedo pockets the commission of the sale, Sedo is deemed an accomplice.

Not all domains start with xn-- are IDN domains. A xn-- domain is considered an IDN domain only when it's unicode means something in a language or languages.

First off, IDN is a technological term which has no restriction on what is and what is not a "real" IDN, if it fits the technological description, it is an IDN, period.
Second if you do choose to discriminate, you will have to set up requirements which have to be fulfilled by these so-called "real" IDN's because obviously you want someone to be able to indeed verify if it is a "real" IDN. It is impossible to make an unambiguous definition so therefore either a crude filter will have to be set up or they have to be filtered manually.
Thirdly, although I agree that phishers will have to be tackled somewhere down that road, I don't believe actively scanning for phishing domains will prevent people from being conned with phishing IDN's. If it's not done publicly, then privately, maybe even through mailing lists, in that case the only thing that is standing in the way of committing fraud and attempting to commit fraud is the knowledge the victim has.
IDN's don't con people, people con people and only knowledge can prevent people from being conned.

What sedo should do is make sellers aware of the fact that domains which are intended to mimic other domains are considered as attempts to commit fraud, something of that nature anyway. This is, believe it or not, not mentioned in their user conditions.
BUT of course this will have to apply to ALL domains that are being offered, no phishing domains MEANS no phishing domains and this my friends will upset the ascii-market because if there's one article being traded it's these domains, also typo's can arguable be considered as phishing domains so this will need consideration.



#

5.1.3. Domain Listing Rules

The following Domain listing requirements and obligations apply to your use of the Domain Database:

(a) The Seller agrees to set up a user account and to fill out the registration form completely and accurately.

(b) Domain names are the result of, and are subject to all of the conditions, limitations, and restrictions contained in, domain name registration agreements between the Seller and a third-party domain name registrar or other service provider. As such, the transferability of domain name registration may be limited, prohibited, or otherwise subject to conditions imposed by the domain name registrar or service provider. Nothing in this Agreement or on the Site shall be construed to imply that the Seller possesses any rights to a Domain beyond those specified in the Seller's agreement with the relevant domain name registrar or service provider. The term "Domain" as used herein, shall refer to any rights the Seller may possess with regard to the registration of a particular domain name under its domain name registration agreement with a domain name registrar or other service provider as well as any content available at or through a particular URL.

(c) As a Seller of a Domain listed on the Domain Database, you represent and warrant that: (i) you have registered the Domain with the appropriate Domain registrar or other registration authority; (ii) your registration of the Domain is current and not subject to deletion, cancellation, rescission, or deactivation by the applicable Domain registrar or other registration authority; (iii) you have not taken any action that would impair your ability or right to transfer the Domain registration and no such action has been taken against you; (iv) the Domain has not been used in such a manner as to infringe the rights of any third party, including, but not limited to, trademark, naming or publicity rights; (v) the Domain is not the subject of any legal disputes or proceedings challenging your right to register or use the Domain; (vi) you will accurately describe the subject listing; (vii) you own and have the right to sell the content, if any, listed as part of your Domain; and (viii) if your offer to sell and transfer the Domain is accepted, you will complete the transaction with a ready, willing, and able Buyer. You will not under any circumstances list or transfer the rights to any Domain that you do not have sufficient rights to transfer or that is illegal to transfer under applicable law.

(d) The Seller agrees not to list any domains which violate Sedo's Offensive Domain Policy, which is hereby incorporated by reference. Sedo may refuse to list, or remove the listing for, any Domain which, in Sedo's sole discretion, may potentially infringe or violate the proprietary rights of any third person or any other Domain, or which in Sedo's sole discretion, is inflammatory, offensive, inconsistent with Sedo's general policies or Acceptable Use terms, or otherwise may infringe any proprietary right of any third party.

(e) The Seller of a Domain agrees not to enter a bid for his/her own offer and not to instruct other persons to do so. In addition, any user manipulation of Domain listing statistics is prohibited, including, but not limited to, manipulating or otherwise falsely inflating traffic statistics represented to Buyer during the course of negotiation or which are measured and displayed by Sedo.

(f) You will not yourself, nor will you allow or enable another, to directly or indirectly interfere or attempt to interfere with the operations of the Site or the Services.

(g) The Seller agrees to keep any data which he/she has added to the Domain Database up-to-date. If a Domain has been sold, he/she is to remove it from the database. Furthermore, the Seller agrees to remove a Domain from the Domain Database immediately if a warning has been issued, or as soon as any notice or knowledge has been received that the rights of a third party or applicable laws could be violated by the listing. This shall apply until legal clarification of the situation has been made.


Ok, so it starts with sedo changing the user conditions, sedo publicly announces that unambiguous phishing domains are no longer allowed and that any breach will result in a permanent ban or something of that nature. Simultaneously sedo places general notices for the buyers emphasizing due diligence on behalf on the buyer. For practical reasons all idn's are always accompanied by there punycody (in brackets) representation.

Mixed script domains..hmm, sedo may do this, however this should only apply to scripts which have a similar representation;
cyrillic - latin
cyrillic - greek
greek - latin
bopomofo - hindi (?)
...
etc.

It's not a lot of work to make a list and it's easy to put in place.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect something like this from sedo.