Somebody stop me!

[rhys]

Originally Posted by touchring

OVT is biaised because people tend to type (more) to get a more accurate search result. This is something that everyone here would understand.

This makes sense to me. I use OVT as a guage of the search demand and I use my own sense of what sounds natural in Japanese. I also guage the demand equation by seeing the max and min bids on OVT as well as the depth of bidders. I avoid 3 word domains simply because I don't see them as type-in traffic stock. In the best of all possible worlds I hope that 5%-10% traffic will materialize someday for my one and two word Japanese .com and .jp domains. Although I intend to make quite a bit through resale of the domains, I hav plans to develop along some verticals. Touchring's first comment made me review my portfolio of 400+ IDNs this morning. I still came out giving myself a high-five, it still looks like money to me.

Some of you who are more diversified may take comfort from your traffic on Russian, Thai, or Arabic sites. But as for traffic on Japanese domains currently it appears primarily as "chatter" at low levels. In the past 3 weeks I have some traffic on about 60% of my .com and .net holdings. I wonder what it is. A good portion may just be speculators checking up on what is on the site, maybe its crawlers getting counted as visits, but I can tell you that I do have some unusually high activity on a handful of domains that tell me that traffic isn't a total dream. That keeps me going.

[thegenius1]

I think this thread should be broken down into 3 parts, Type-In , Seo/Development... and End User.... Depending on where you are trying to go with a Domain one of these 3 should be the main focus when RegN a name

[gammascalper]

Originally Posted by thegenius1

I think this thread should be broken down into 3 parts, Type-In , Seo/Development... and End User.... Depending on where you are trying to go with a Domain one of these 3 should be the main focus when RegN a name

Well said.

[idn]

Originally Posted by thegenius1

I think this thread should be broken down into 3 parts, Type-In , Seo/Development... and End User.... Depending on where you are trying to go with a Domain one of these 3 should be the main focus when RegN a name

It is not that easy since all three of these "parts" are correlated.

[touchring]

Originally Posted by rhys

This makes sense to me. I use OVT as a guage of the search demand and I use my own sense of what sounds natural in Japanese. I also guage the demand equation by seeing the max and min bids on OVT as well as the depth of bidders. I avoid 3 word domains simply because I don't see them as type-in traffic stock. In the best of all possible worlds I hope that 5%-10% traffic will materialize someday for my one and two word Japanese .com and .jp domains. Although I intend to make quite a bit through resale of the domains, I hav plans to develop along some verticals. Touchring's first comment made me review my portfolio of 400+ IDNs this morning. I still came out giving myself a high-five, it still looks like money to me.

Some of you who are more diversified may take comfort from your traffic on Russian, Thai, or Arabic sites. But as for traffic on Japanese domains currently it appears primarily as "chatter" at low levels. In the past 3 weeks I have some traffic on about 60% of my .com and .net holdings. I wonder what it is. A good portion may just be speculators checking up on what is on the site, maybe its crawlers getting counted as visits, but I can tell you that I do have some unusually high activity on a handful of domains that tell me that traffic isn't a total dream. That keeps me going.

No worries, just a response to "Somebody stop me!".

[thegenius1]

Also are we under estamating what the type in traffic is going to be in the asian scripts for the simple fact that we are dealing with symbols, you could have a highly searchd term with 2 -3 words and it may only be 2-4 symbols ? unlike the alphabet when a 3 word name is over 10 letters ez

Originally Posted by idn

It is not that easy since all three of these "parts" are correlated.

And then again it depends, look at certain big company names that are just Brandable invented words, they are not corealated to Type In , they all have to be factored but you gotta think about what your options are witha domain before you Reg it,

[idn]

Originally Posted by thegenius1

And then again it depends, look at certain big company names that are just Brandable invented words, they are not corealated to Type In , they all have to be factored but you gotta think about what your options are witha domain before you Reg it,

These brandable/invented words were made brandable by millions of dollars in marketing.

[touchring]

Originally Posted by thegenius1

Also are we under estamating what the type in traffic is going to be in the asian scripts for the simple fact that we are dealing with symbols, you could have a highly searchd term with 2 -3 words and it may only be 2-4 symbols ? unlike the alphabet when a 3 word name is over 10 letters ez




And then again it depends, look at certain big company names that are just Brandable invented words, they are not corealated to Type In , they all have to be factored but you gotta think about what your options are witha domain before you Reg it,

Shorter domains are generally easier to remember/recall, e.g. Kanji of 2 characters are better than Kana of 8 characters.

But that is not to say that entering the Kanji takes only 2 keys - it's more than that. I do not know about Japanese keyboard, but a term like China, 中国.com involves 9 keystrokes - ZHONGGUO1 - if entered using Chinese PINYIN IME.

[rhys]

Originally Posted by thegenius1

Also are we under estamating what the type in traffic is going to be in the asian scripts for the simple fact that we are dealing with symbols, you could have a highly searchd term with 2 -3 words and it may only be 2-4 symbols ? unlike the alphabet when a 3 word name is over 10 letters ez
,

I've had this thought almost since the beginning that IF type-in traffic becomes a phenomenon in Japan, many 2 word combinations would see the same ratio of traffic to OVT as single word type-ins because Japanese and their word processing programs see these words as one word really not two. But I cannot assert anything at this point, we are all just involved in bullshit speculation until the buzzer starts. I'm just putting my money down and spinning the wheel.

I was speaking to a Japanese friend of mine from my mgmt consulting days who is now head of strategy at a game company Square Enix. He believes that the Japanese will never type in because they prefer going to ready made lists of links to typing. He pointed to the continuing dominance of Yahoo's category structure over Google in Japan. I actually do not believe this argument, I think it is weak, but I'm putting it out there for others to mull over because unlike me this guy is completely Japanese.

In my experience, the Japanese always try to point to themselves as different but only occasionally really are. I am reminded of the early 90's when the US was trying to convince the Japanese to get rid of trade barriers for foreign cheese and the Japanese Gov't argument was "It's unimportant because the Japanese do not eat cheese." Now of course they consume millions of pounds of cheese. Also reminded of the mid 1990's when the management of the Japanese firm I worked for resisted giving everyone email saying,"email does not blend with Japanese work culture and will never be accepted" - that company of course is now bankrupt and someone else owns their domain name - the first one I ever bought.

[touchring]

From what i have observed the past 2 months, Japanese words that use Chinese characters generally are 2-characters (sometimes 3) per word. A 4-character word is a double compound word. A lot of Japanese words (i think as much as 50%) actually use Chinese characters, so this rule affects a great majority of words.

As for the shortcut, when your domains are like 809243.com or jxy163.com, you may prefer to create a list of shortcuts. :-p

[rhys]

Originally Posted by touchring

Shorter domains are generally easier to remember/recall, e.g. Kanji of 2 characters are better than Kana of 8 characters.
.

But then to be fair in your argument the Kanji of 2 characters then are equivalent to Kana of 4 characters, right.

[touchring]

Originally Posted by rhys

But then to be fair in your argument the Kanji of 2 characters then are equivalent to Kana of 4 characters, right.

I do not know if there can be a fixed ratio, but for domain valuation purpose - a "commonly used" Kanji is definitely useful for website marketing - it saves space on advertising media and is easier to recall.

[rhys]

Originally Posted by touchring

I do not know if there can be a fixed ratio, but for domain valuation purpose - a "commonly used" Kanji is definitely useful for website marketing - it saves space on advertising media and is easier to recall.

I'll call you on that one. Sorry but that argument sounds like a foreign construct to me. The japanese use Kanji, Hiragana, Katakana, or Romaji for branding all the time without strict preference to any one form, the "right" words are always equally easy for Japanese to recall regardless of the script. I love Kanji domains don't get me wrong, but I think when the market reveals itsef to us that you will find that some of the most valuable popular .com domains in Japanese will be in katakana and hiragana.

[touchring]

Originally Posted by rhys

I'll call you on that one. Sorry but that argument sounds like a foreign construct to me. The japanese use Kanji, Hiragana, Katakana, or Romaji for branding all the time without strict preference to any one form, the "right" words are always equally easy for Japanese to recall regardless of the script. I love Kanji domains don't get me wrong, but I think when the market reveals itsef to us that you will find that some of the most valuable popular .com domains in Japanese will be in katakana and hiragana.

There are no clearcut rules, but where a term has both Kanji and Kana form with about the same OVT, the Kanji form is marginally more valuable - if you can read Kanji, you'll probably understand what i mean.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by touchring

Shorter domains are generally easier to remember/recall, e.g. Kanji of 2 characters are better than Kana of 8 characters.

But that is not to say that entering the Kanji takes only 2 keys - it's more than that. I do not know about Japanese keyboard, but a term like China, 中国.com involves 9 keystrokes - ZHONGGUO1 - if entered using Chinese PINYIN IME.

Yes, which ever way you cut it has to be an average of 3 strokes per character or more unless you have a keyboad with an array of keys of about 100x100.

[rhys]

Originally Posted by touchring

There are no clearcut rules, but where a term has both Kanji and Kana form with about the same OVT, the Kanji form is marginally more valuable - if you can read Kanji, you'll probably understand what i mean.

Actually, I do read Japanese and I completely disagree. I can see why some of you might believe what you do by looking at the body of evidence but the idea that 2 or 3 or 4 characters shorter is easier for Japanese people to remember is just plain wishful thinking psychobabble from a distant armchair (No offense meant here just being dramatic). I can see how you might create a simple heuristic for valuation based on a pattern of kanji superiority to kana (which is historical by the way not psychological) but to somehow ascribe that to the fact that its "easier to remember" is completely baseless suppostion that any linguist or psychologist would laugh at. But we believe what we believe. Respect. If someone really believes that argument then they should be willing to step up and trade one of their "inferior" kana domains for the "superior" kanji equivalent.

米国 ovt 2,993 vs アメリカ ovt 110,483 America
英国 ovt 6,930 vs イギリスovt 73,140 England
蜜柑 ovt 1,819 vs みかん ovt 28,192 Mikan /Mandarine Orange
林檎 ovt 4,094 vs りんご ovt 26,336 Apple

[touchring]

Originally Posted by rhys

Actually, I do read Japanese and I completely disagree. I can see why some of you might believe what you do by looking at the body of evidence but the idea that 2 or 3 or 4 characters shorter is easier for Japanese people to remember is just plain wishful thinking psychobabble from a distant armchair (No offense meant here just being dramatic). I can see how you might create a simple heuristic for valuation based on a pattern of kanji superiority to kana (which is historical by the way not psychological) but to somehow ascribe that to the fact that its "easier to remember" is completely baseless suppostion that any linguist or psychologist would laugh at. But we believe what we believe. Respect. If someone really believes that argument then they should be willing to step up and trade one of their "inferior" kana domains for the "superior" kanji equivalent.

米国 ovt 2,993 vs アメリカ ovt 110,483 America
英国 ovt 6,930 vs イギリスovt 73,140 England
蜜柑 ovt 1,819 vs みかん ovt 28,192 Mikan /Mandarine Orange
林檎 ovt 4,094 vs りんご ovt 26,336 Apple

There are also many cases where Kanji form has a higher OVT. Since you know Japanese, you would know this yourself better than me. I wouldn't want to mislead others.

Anyway, based on SIMILAR OVT for both types, i would value the Kanji form more.


kanji superiority to kana -> nothing of this sort. Just that people remember drawings more easily.

Perhaps, let's put aside Kana and just compare "English" with "Kanji". I may spot a Kanji URL embedded within an English message advertisement that flashes pass in a split second without expecting it in advance, and recall it after that. I might not be able to do so with an english equivalent URL.

[Clotho]

I find this conversation fascinating. I have been wondering about things like this for some time. The Japanese language has wonderful qualities that lend itself well to memorable branding. Without doubt we will see much creativity ias domainers are forced to create innovative names for their website projects in the years to come. Much like we have seen in the Latin scripts.

I have always wondered about the Kanji form of search 検索 Ovt 214013 (The most used Kanji form that is) and the Katakana form サーチ Ovt 12773. Based on the Ovt score I would have to favor the Kanji as the more valuable but I am puzzled by this because I have noticed the Katakana form used most often on Search buttons.

[touchring]

Well, a URL is a brand, and not just a word or keyword.....

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by rhys

I'll call you on that one. Sorry but that argument sounds like a foreign construct to me. The japanese use Kanji, Hiragana, Katakana, or Romaji for branding all the time without strict preference to any one form, the "right" words are always equally easy for Japanese to recall regardless of the script. I love Kanji domains don't get me wrong, but I think when the market reveals itsef to us that you will find that some of the most valuable popular .com domains in Japanese will be in katakana and hiragana.

Interesting to hear conflicting view on this. I guess I should not really comment as I have already been accused of pontificating from the other side of the World. However, this is my two penneth for what it is worth.

Kanji, appears to be the original script of the Japanese Language. Hirigana, is a essentially a secondary script that was developed primarily for children and women, who would not have been sufficiently educated to cope with Kanji, which takes an awful lot of learning. Originally, Kanji would have been about 50K characters like Chinese rather the residual rump of some 1800 characters today.

The Kanji has Iconic quality and is maintained to represent only the most important concepts. It sort of punctuates the written language and makes it more digestible. However, many more modern concepts have never had a Kanji symbol and for the most part such symbols have not been invented. It is therefore very possible to have very good keywords notably in high tech areas that are Hirigana.

Whether or not the most popular form is Kanji or Hirigana, the most popular form is the most popular form, and unless the computer and mobile phone use actually cause lingual shift that will remain the case. The computer has, however, changed the way the English Language is used and will undoubtedly do the same the with Japanese. If there is a drift, it is much more likely to a further erosion of Kanji rather than the other way around.

With domain, in the west, it is very normal for the characters to be combined in ways that is not common in normal writing. Substitution of S with Z is commonplace, as is the addition of the "i" and "e" prefixes. I am sure you can think of a million other ways in which domainspeak does not conform to the normal rules of Engish. It is very likely that this will also occur with Japanese. This will be particular true where the domain space is tight. I booked out all the Japanese cities in Hirigana. I know that is not what most would choose, particularly now, but with these names all blocked in Japanese, it not difficult to see people pragmatically adapting to the reality that there are a very limited number of top Kanji names available.

Hirigana is undoubtedly easy to input and remember and is ideally suited for use in Domain Names. It does lack the Iconic Quality of Kanji, but it is certainly not unsuitable for use as domain or email addresses and will undoubtedly be used. What we are really arguing about is how brandable it will become. Well that is impossible to say. If in the 1980s you had suggested that corporations would actually on mass start Incorporating with ".com" or ".co.uk" as part of their official names, most would have dismissed you as barmy. We are trying to look into the future here. If you look back at most TV programmes from the last 50 years that tried to do the same, you would see what a hopeless task this really is.