frank schilling blog post on IDNs - IDN Forums

touchring · #1 02-27-2007, 03:18 PM

http://frankschilling.typepad.com/

Why no one put it here?

Quote:

February 24, 2007
International Domain Names

I got a very smart post from an individual this evening relating to IDN's and he(she) hits on some terrific arguments:

Hi Frank,
Just to re-visit your take on IDNs. Traffic to IDNs is slowly increasing, not up there with ASCII keywords yet but Im sure it will equal or possibly even outperform ASCII at some point. When you say they are regional, that is true but when you consider that English is not the most widely spoken language it kinda puts a different spin on it. There are 2 or 3? times the number of Mandarin speakers for example. Certainly internet penetration is not on a par with the US or Europe when compared to China or India for example but this demographic is changing and the 'playing field' as it were, will eventually level out. IDNs are an area where there are a lot of detractors and this is a natural human reaction to something that is not fully understood. I guess it is also an attempt, whether conscious or subconsciously to protect the interests of ASCII domainers as IDNs will only continue to encroach on ASCII domain territory. I also believe IDNs offer the best (And possibly the last?) big opportunity for a novice domainer to grab a piece of the action without having to find $xxx,xxx - $x,xxx,xxx to buy a half-way decent ASCII keyword. Yes it is more difficult for someone who doesn't speak the language of their target domains but that is a hurdle easily overcome with a bit of work and willingness to learn. As for selling things globally I wouldn't really mind too much if my Chinese character domain cracked the 1.3 billion Chinese market and fell flat on it's face in the Latin character using world.
All the best Frank
PS. If you're looking for some top notch IDNs you know where to get hold of me .. ;>)

So I read the National Geographic Atlas quite a bit. I'm a geography buff and noticed this chart that neatly illustrates my problem with IDN's:

Language_future

The number of languages in the World are shrinking.. and in an ironic twist the Internet is accelerating that dynamic in ways this chart (which is 7 years old) does not accurately illustrate. India uses Latin characters (1+bil people) and the majority of the industrialised world is using Latin (South America, Europe, even industrialized Africa). Industrialised China and Japan use Latin characters (English words) when selling their products domestically.. We get Japanese right hand drive (domestic market) vehicles here in Cayman that are right off the Tokyo showroom floor with Latin character (English) badges. I think IDNs will have their place but it will be very regional (limited) I actually prefer numerical names like 514.com where the numbers make sounds in one language and mean something good but are translatable to Latin QWERTY keyboards. Is it better for me if Latin wins over IDN? Yes. But in the final analysis, if I thought IDNs had a chance to change the world... I would be joining you in scooping up lots of them.

Thanks sincerely for your well thought out post Mr. Law.

Posted at 07:57 PM in Domain Names (Domains) | Permalink | Comments (23) | TrackBack (0)

rhys · #2 02-27-2007, 03:24 PM

Drewbert posted it a few days ago.

domainguru · #3 02-27-2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by touchring

http://frankschilling.typepad.com/

Why no one put it here?

His arguments hold *some* water, but the basic fact, for Thailand at least, is that to an overwhelming extent Thais search the Internet using Thai keywords, not English keywords. That is the basis for their value here, and I presume for other major IDN markets.

As for "selling things", it is a real mixed bag in Thailand - pure Thai, pure English, English transliterated into Thai, both English and Thai.

rhys · #4 02-27-2007, 03:41 PM

My comment earlier remains unchanged, I thought Frank's blog was an interesting and entertaining read. His brief positional on IDNs belied general ignorance posing as intelligence. Does he really believe that the world is converging on using one script (ascii) and that somehow the timeline for this coincides with the adoption timeline for IDNs? They must have some powerful weed on cayman.

domainguru · #5 02-27-2007, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhys

My comment earlier remains unchanged, I thought Frank's blog was an interesting and entertaining read. His brief positional on IDNs belied general ignorance posing as intelligence. Does he really believe that the world is converging on using one script (ascii) and that somehow the timeline for this coincides with the adoption timeline for IDNs? They must have some powerful weed on cayman.

Yes, its the same dodgy arguments you hear everywhere:
1) English is becoming the dominant language on the planet, so IDNs aren't needed. (Billions of people not able to read his blog might disagree).
2) When two "random" people meet, they speak English. Sometimes happens, but so what? When two thais meet, they speak Thai

Rubber Duck · #6 02-27-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by domainguru

Yes, its the same dodgy arguments you hear everywhere:
1) English is becoming the dominant language on the planet, so IDNs aren't needed. (Billions of people not able to read his blog might disagree).
2) When two "random" people meet, they speak English. Sometimes happens, but so what? When two thais meet, they speak Thai

Yes, but who are the individual generating the Traffic and Clicks are they generally high ranking officials from large corporations, is that who we are targetting, or are we addressing millions of would be consumers?

One of us is way off beat on these arguments. I am sorry but I thought we were generally targetting consumers? Please don't tell me I f*cked up?

domainguru · #7 02-27-2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubber Duck

Yes, but who are the individual generating the Traffic and Clicks are they generally high ranking officials from large corporations, is that who we are targetting, or are we addressing millions of would be consumers?

One of us is way off beat on these arguments. I am sorry but I thought we were generally targetting consumers? Please don't tell me I f*cked up?

Of course, we are targeting individuals - people that actually surf webpages on a daily basis written in their own language, perform searches in their own language, buy things in their own language, write blogs in their own language etc.

That's why I said why does it matter when two "random" people from different countries attempt to speak to each other in English. IDNs are about local markets, that's a pretty simple thing to understand.

blastfromthepast · #8 02-27-2007, 04:09 PM

When two people meet, they always switch to the language most common to both, the commonest denominator.

In many cases, that happens to be English. You use what you know, to get the message across to the other side. It has nothing to do with the preferred language of either party.

Rubber Duck · #9 02-27-2007, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by domainguru

Of course, we are targeting individuals - people that actually surf webpages on a daily basis written in their own language, perform searches in their own language, buy things in their own language, write blogs in their own language etc.

That's why I said why does it matter when two "random" people from different countries attempt to speak to each other in English. IDNs are about local markets, that's a pretty simple thing to understand.

So what exactly do these people learn at TRAFFICS?

Is it really clever stuff that we could not possibly get our heads around?

Would it be worthwhile for someone of my simple intellect to invest in a crash course on domaining?

jose · #10 02-27-2007, 04:17 PM

Well, I think it's good news. IDN already simplify a lot of dialects and local languages. Also, history tells us the correct answer, if you know where to look. I have been reading about the Roman empire and found that all European countries that were once part of the Roman Empire now speak a latin language. All other languages, once speaken at those countries, were lost. Why? Because they were all talked and not written and because in order to make commercial trades or be on the army you had to speak latin.

Languages left outside the IDN specifications will die. The others will flourish.

Rubber Duck · #11 02-27-2007, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose

Well, I think it's good news. IDN already simplify a lot of dialects and local languages. Also, history tells us the correct answer, if you know where to look. I have been reading about the Roman empire and found that all European countries that were once part of the Roman Empire now speak a latin language. All other languages, once speaken at those countries, were lost. Why? Because they were all talked and not written and because in order to make commercial trades or be on the army you had to speak latin.

Languages left outside the IDN specifications will die. The others will flourish.

Non-written languages will not flourish on the Internet?

Yes, I think I could go along with that!

By the way, how well do Latin do after the Empire fell?

domainguru · #12 02-27-2007, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubber Duck

So what exactly do these people learn at TRAFFICS?

Is it really clever stuff that we could not possibly get our heads around?

Would it be worthwhile for someone of my simple intellect to invest in a crash course on domaining?

There isn't a lot to learn from the ASCII/TRAFFIC crowd to be honest. Find domains that generate lots of type-ins (genuine or typos, they don't care), and point them to the best paying parking service. Most of the ASCII crowd haven't learnt anything beyond that. I would rather be here any day.

And to be really honest, the ASCII game is pretty much dead now. All the top domains are in the hands of people with lots of cash. People are fighting over the scraps of the scraps. I would definitely rather be here any day !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubber Duck

Non-written languages will not flourish on the Internet?

Yes, I think I could go along with that!

I think Jose is saying that IDN is the new "Roman Empire", so to speak.

Rubber Duck · #13 02-27-2007, 04:28 PM

I think the real lesson to be gleaned here is that when the Empire Fell its language largely died.

When the US falls from economic grace, the dominance of English will also decline significantly.

rhys · #14 02-27-2007, 04:32 PM

I think that when the roman empire disentegrated latin vernaculars became separate languages i.e. that are not mutually intelligible (the difference between a dialect and a language). People want to speak their own language. The internet is not changing language preference. Is it exposing a lot more people to English? Probably. But that doesn't change language preference. IDNs enable language preference and thus they will flourish. Period.

blastfromthepast · #15 02-27-2007, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jose

Languages left outside the IDN specifications will die. The others will flourish.

Wrong. The new Puycode spec based on Unicode 4.0 even includes runic characters for those European cavemen using their noggin.

Rubber Duck · #16 02-27-2007, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhys

I think that when the roman empire disentegrated latin vernaculars became separate languages i.e. that are not mutually intelligible (the difference between a dialect and a language). People want to speak their own language. The internet is not changing language preference. Is it exposing a lot more people to English? Probably. But that doesn't change language preference. IDNs enable language preference and thus they will flourish. Period.

That is fundamentally true for the real Latin Languages such as French and Spanish and Italian perhaps, but it is not true of German or English.

Yes, English has adopted a lot of Latin Words just as it has many other languages, but the basic grammar borrows little or nothing from Latin. Even Russian has more of a Latin legacy in many ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastfromthepast

Wrong. The new Puycode spec based on Unicode 4.0 even includes runic characters for those European cavemen using their noggin.

Yes, that is bizarre!

rhys · #17 02-27-2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubber Duck

That is fundamentally true for the real Latin Languages such as French and Spanish and Italian perhaps, but it is not true of German or English.

Yes, English has adopted a lot of Latin Words just as it has many other languages, but the basic grammar borrows little or nothing from Latin. Even Russian has more of a Latin legacy in many ways.

Yes, that is bizarre!

RD - it is true. I said LATIN vernaculars. Those would be understood to be French, Spanish, and Italian. Everyone knows that German and English are from the germanic branch of the indo-european tree. And on a related note I believe about 40% of English words are actually adoptions from latin. That is actually phenomenally high considering it is a germanic language.