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View Full Version : Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?


bwhhisc
3rd April 2007, 12:36 PM
Just thinking (maybe a bit too much) about how things will unfold and how they will try to "satisfy" all parties involved.
So that brought up the question..."Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?" and what is the possibility of that happening?

There is idn.com, idn.cn, idn.jp, idn.net, idn.ws, idn.biz, idn.info etc. etc.
Someday there will be "idn.idn" (in all idn languages)
No doubt many will push for it to be a "new" extension with sunrise period etc.
This would be the "real IDNs" the boys have long referred to at DNF.

There has been speculation that idn.com owners will be "grandfathered in" to the idn.idn status, or that idn.com
would map to idn.idn but nothing is certain except that we are most likely in for a continued l-o-n-g wait.
Interested in anyone's thoughts here.

Prodigy
3rd April 2007, 12:48 PM
There is room for both extensions, it will be a question of which will hold more value.

In my opinion, IDN.com might hold enough value by itself due to the brandability of the .com extension. If there is a seperate space for IDN.IDN (.com, .net equivalent), the extension might have to re-establish itself as the .com equivalent and will take an even longer while to reach the value that .com currently controls.

Regarding IDN.IDN, it is already here my friend.

domainguru
3rd April 2007, 12:57 PM
Just thinking (maybe a bit too much) about how things will unfold and how they will try to "satisfy" all parties involved.
So that brought up the question..."Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?" and what is the possibility of that happening?

There is idn.com, idn.cn, idn.jp, idn.net, idn.ws, idn.biz, idn.info etc. etc.
Someday there will be "idn.idn"
No doubt many will push for it to be a "new" extension with sunrise period etc.
This would be the "real IDNs" the boys have long referred to at DNF.

There has been speculation that idn.com owners will be "grandfathered in" to the idn.idn status, or that idn.com
would map to idn.idn but nothing is certain except that we are most likely in for a continued l-o-n-g wait.
Interested in anyone's thoughts here.

I think there needs to be more precision in the question. Do you mean "Can IDN.com and IDN.(xn-- version of .com in local languages) co-exist"?

For some language, the translation of ".com" would be a simple transliteration e.g. in Thai it would be ".คอม" and hence sound exactly the same. So if the ".com" and the ".คอม" had different owners, it would be pretty chaotic. Every single Thai ".com" / ".คอม" would then fail the radio test. A very bad state of affairs.

But for countries where a translation was chosen, instead of a transliteration i.e. it didn't sound the same as ".com", I guess they could co-exist.

Interesting!

sunsei21
3rd April 2007, 01:37 PM
I think that they will exist together for a small amount of time until the awareness of idn.idn is fully realized in which case any traffic type in traffic will slowly die off companies will slowly start to use them and our versions might be tossed to trash heap but thats just a worse case scenario considering that idns are for the ease of use for the native speaker. :)

IDNCowboy
3rd April 2007, 02:48 PM
We can thank verisign and icann for using us as a live test best that pays full price if this happens.

touchring
3rd April 2007, 03:03 PM
Just thinking (maybe a bit too much) about how things will unfold and how they will try to "satisfy" all parties involved.
So that brought up the question..."Can idn.com and idn.idn co-exist?" and what is the possibility of that happening?

There is idn.com, idn.cn, idn.jp, idn.net, idn.ws, idn.biz, idn.info etc. etc.
Someday there will be "idn.idn" (in all idn languages)
No doubt many will push for it to be a "new" extension with sunrise period etc.
This would be the "real IDNs" the boys have long referred to at DNF.

There has been speculation that idn.com owners will be "grandfathered in" to the idn.idn status, or that idn.com
would map to idn.idn but nothing is certain except that we are most likely in for a continued l-o-n-g wait.
Interested in anyone's thoughts here.


Would depend on language, for japanese, they invented "idn.com".

kakaku.com and it's idn.com logo, dated Nov 04, 1999.

http://web.archive.org/web/19991104003213/http://kakaku.com/index.html


ikyu.com and it's idn.com logo, dated Jun 19, 2000.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000619132615/http://www.ikyu.com/


onamae.com and it's idn.com logo, dated May 10, 2000.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000510161440/http://www.onamae.com/

mdw
3rd April 2007, 03:15 PM
You guys definitely have too much idle time to sit around and worry about things. Once corporate investment in IDN.com has started (and as RD strives every day to point out IT HAS) it becomes increasingly difficult to implement anything other than a mapping scheme. Each day there are more and more stakeholders who will not sit by silently and watch their investment be relegated to the dust bin.

Mapping multiple native language extensions onto a single .com makes sense for some scripts too, and there's nothing to fear there (unless you work on the BIND team) The one constant on the net is change, and it wouldn't surprise me to see in 10 years yet another level of abstraction layered on top of DNS (just as DNS does to IP addressing, etc.) once the system gets a bit more cumbersome to deal with. And people will complain but it will just be another opportunity...

Prodigy
3rd April 2007, 03:26 PM
You guys definitely have too much idle time to sit around and worry about things. Once corporate investment in IDN.com has started (and as RD strives every day to point out IT HAS) it becomes increasingly difficult to implement anything other than a mapping scheme. Each day there are more and more stakeholders who will not sit by silently and watch their investment be relegated to the dust bin.


Theres corporate investment in IDN .jp and .cn as well.

The verdict is not out on what is preferred and what the consumer is going to place more value on.

Given that alot of the spotlight is on .com (as this is a very western-centric forum), you'll see an almost balanced or opposite picture in some of the local based language forums/ domain auctions.

Considering the options (i.e. idle time) gives you an opportunity to consider diversification. I for one would rather be rich than right.

Giant
3rd April 2007, 04:08 PM
The talks about IDN.IDN will continue for another 2 or 3 years and then people will finally realize we don't need IDN.IDN at all because IDN.ascii is already ruling the world. That's why we don't see VeriSign's planning for IDN.IDN.

Planning to do IDN.IDN at the ROOT for one country is easy, but planning for hundreds or thousands of mappings (or registries) is very hard. The more we discuss, the more problems we will discover.

As I said a year ago, IDN.IDN is for improving the ease of use and can be achieved through improvement on browsers. On IE6, the Chinese users have to switch the Input Mode in order to enter ".com", but on IE7 we don't have to switch anymore, we just continue typing "。c o m" in Chinese input mode and IE7 will give us ".com". With the same logic, when we type "。c n" in Chinese Mode, IE can be programmed to display ".中国" instead and we don't have to do any work on the ROOT.

I have been solving problems all my life. First I worked to solve mathematical (or computer) problems, then business (real life) problems, and now philosophical problems. Putting "xn--fiqs8s" in the Root Server to represent ".cn" (and need a browser to translate "xn--fiqs8s" back to ".cn") is the dumbest idea I have ever seen! By doing so, it can only cause more INconvenience rather than convenience.

Forget about IDN.IDN and only focus on IDN.ascii is the best solution at this time!

Rubber Duck
3rd April 2007, 04:24 PM
If you are looking at new IDN.IDN that are going to stand alongside dot com and dot net as new extensions, you also have to think about New Registries.

The Extension will have to be applied through via the as yet unformulated policy for New TLDs, but we can look at the existing criteria that are set for New Extension and then try to weigh how brand new registries would fare in direct competition with Verisign in applying for these extensions. We can also look at, how long recent approvals of much less contraversial extension has taken to come to fruition. The present state of progress is that Final Proposals will be put to the Board for San Juan. It could be months after that before they are ready to receive any new applications for gTLDs.

It would seem that main criteria relating to approval of applicants to run registries is Technical and Financial Strength. Seems a bit hard to see how any brand spanking new registry could compete with Verisign on that, even setting aside issues such a Intellectual Property Rights.

On the Intellectual Property Rights issues, you should refer to this document:

http://www.icann.org/wipo/newgtld-ip-05apr06.htm

I think that will kill most of the crazy notions stone dead here, if those continuing to comment actually have done the reading.

As of the 10 October 2000, the following applications had already been lodged:

http://www.icann.org/tlds/tld-applications-lodged-02oct00.htm

.xxx .kids .museums .tel .pro .travel .name .mobi

That should give you an indication of quickly you can expect to see New TLDs emerging to compete with dot Com if indeed that is what is ever likely to happen.


I have been solving problems all my life. First I worked to solve mathematical (or computer) problems, then business (real life) problems, and now philosophical problems. Putting "xn--fiqs8s" in the Root Server to represent ".cn" (and need a browser to translate "xn--fiqs8s" back to ".cn") is the dumbest idea I have ever seen! By doing so, it can only cause more INconvenience rather than convenience.


Browser are already IDN.IDN capable.

If you doubt this paste one into the search bar and observe at the target URL at the bottom left hand side of the page. You should see two punycode strings separated by a dot! I have posted previously on this issue. Solving problems is one thing. Solving solved problems is entirely another!

Fka200
3rd April 2007, 04:30 PM
IDN.IDN needs to exist for some languages such as Arabic and Hebrew. I can't say anything for the other languages, but it looks so damn funny everytime I edit something in Photoshop and see the .com/.net on the right of the word... it NEEDS to be implemented for these languages since it just doesn't work...

Rubber Duck
3rd April 2007, 04:31 PM
The verdict is not out on what is preferred and what the consumer is going to place more value on.

Consumers follow content. It is really more a question of what the richer corporations place value on.

Prodigy
3rd April 2007, 04:32 PM
The talks about IDN.IDN will continue for another 2 or 3 years and then people will finally realize we don't need IDN.IDN at all because IDN.ascii is already ruling the world.
...

Forget about IDN.IDN and only focus on IDN.ascii is the best solution at this time!

And you know this because you've stepped into a time machine and you've seen a China that is predominantly IDN.com?

There are benefits to both .cn and .com, it is just that nobody has stood up for the former extension on this forum.

The final verdict is not out yet, so I would not be carving words in stone less they come back to haunt you later on ;)

Rubber Duck
3rd April 2007, 04:33 PM
IDN.IDN needs to exist for some languages such as Arabic and Hebrew. I can't say anything for the other languages, but it looks so damn funny everytime I edit something in Photoshop and see the .com/.net on the right of the word... it NEEDS to be implemented for these languages since it just doesn't work...

Arabic implementation of Dot Com cannot realistically wait more than another couple of months. There are too many countries and too many ccTLDs for it to make sense for the Arabs to be served any other way.

Prodigy
3rd April 2007, 04:33 PM
Consumers follow content. It is really more a question of what the richer corporations place value on.

Question for you. Companies like Pepsi Cola, Coca Cola will ditch their .cn websites and move with IDN.com websites instead?

Theres a brand identity attached to ccTLD extensions for multinational companies and having your website in ccTLD is not simply just a way to segment multi-language websites.

Just some food for thought.

Rubber Duck
3rd April 2007, 04:37 PM
Question for you. Companies like Pepsi Cola, Coca Cola will ditch their .cn websites and move with IDN.com websites instead?

Like as not, they will try to do both. How the hell should I know!

Prodigy
3rd April 2007, 04:39 PM
Like as not, they will try to do both. How the hell should I know!

That's where the content is gonna be babe ;)

markits
3rd April 2007, 04:39 PM
There is a survey at idnclub.com. People are predominently in favour of using CHINESE.com rather than Chinese.idn.

Prodigy
3rd April 2007, 04:41 PM
There is a survey at idnclub.com. People are predominently in favour of using CHINESE.com rather than Chinese.idn.

The source, the source.

A few points:

1. Domainers that are already heavily invested in com.
2. .CN is a costly investment
3. Too late to grab anything nice now
4. Not all those members are mainland

Eachnic has a more balanced opinion. Particularly over the last 2 months. But they rig all their polls anyway.

Rubber Duck
3rd April 2007, 04:41 PM
There is a survey at idnclub.com. People are predominently in favour of using CHINESE.com rather than Chinese.idn.

So at least we know where things are going for the time being on Taiwan!

Of course all such information is useful, but the overall situation may remain fluid for some time to come.

That's where the content is gonna be babe ;)

When was the last time you looked at the Coca Cola website?

markits
3rd April 2007, 04:44 PM
So at least we know where things are going for the time being on Taiwan!


There are many Mainland Chinese members in idnclub too, including myself. In fact I believe most members there are from the Mainland China.

Prodigy
3rd April 2007, 04:47 PM
So at least we know where things are going for the time being on Taiwan!

Of course all such information is useful, but the overall situation may remain fluid for some time to come.



When was the last time you looked at the Coca Cola website?

haha, dude, alot of multi national companies have their Chinese websites on .cn

There are a few that map though to another part of their .com website i.e. goldmansachs

I visit food pages alot, in the food biz. But for a local consumer, Pepsi runs alot of promotions and celebrity appearances in China with direction to their China website (thus the example).

I would be curious to know in this new era of IDNs, if ccTLD will all of a sudden become defunct simply because people can run a IDN.com instead.

Not really a question that can be answered now, but maybe with time.

blastfromthepast
3rd April 2007, 04:58 PM
.CN is a waste of time as everyone knows it is complicated by red tape, restrictions, and a system that puts your domains in danger.

Truly global companies like IKEA just get their domain in all languages in .com, a simple consistent approach.

Prodigy
3rd April 2007, 05:02 PM
.CN is a waste of time as everyone knows it is complicated by red tape, restrictions, and a system that puts your domains in danger.

Truly global companies like IKEA just get their domain in all languages in .com, a simple consistent approach.

Touche!

bnb001
3rd April 2007, 05:06 PM
The source, the source.

A few points:

1. Domainers that are already heavily invested in com.
2. .CN is a costly investment
3. Too late to grab anything nice now
4. Not all those members are mainland

Eachnic has a more balanced opinion. Particularly over the last 2 months. But they rig all their polls anyway.


http://idnclub.com/viewthread.php?tid=1446

http://idnclub.com/viewthread.php?tid=1447

http://idnclub.com/viewthread.php?tid=1448

http://idnclub.com/viewthread.php?tid=1449&highlight=%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87.com%2Bvs%2BDname%E5%A4%A7%E8%80%83%E9%A9%97

blastfromthepast
3rd April 2007, 05:07 PM
ChinaStar, read this:

Philosophy of ccTLD's. They come and they go.

http://www.idnforums.com/forums/1873-philosophy-of-cctlds-they-come-and-they-go.html?highlight=philosophy

touchring
3rd April 2007, 06:12 PM
I've nothing against .cn, in fact, i like all chinese domains, including .nets, but high .cn renewal fees is a problem at the end of the day.

I'd still buy .cn, and looking to buy .cn right now, but the name has to be way above average to justify at least 5 years of renewals. And of cos, the price must be .cn price. :)

http://idnclub.com/viewthread.php?tid=1446

http://idnclub.com/viewthread.php?tid=1447

http://idnclub.com/viewthread.php?tid=1448

http://idnclub.com/viewthread.php?tid=1449&highlight=%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87.com%2Bvs%2BDname%E5%A4%A7%E8%80%83%E9%A9%97


The surveys on idnclub might be a little skewed by the fact that .cn is .china. ;)

Explorer
3rd April 2007, 06:36 PM
They can and they will. While we don't know when/how exactly idn.idn will work out, Verisign will not sit back and watch idn.idn grab market share from idn.com and idn.net. While ccTLDs will be NSed, gTLDs will be DNAMEd.

Rubber Duck
3rd April 2007, 06:41 PM
They can and they will. While we don't know when/how exactly idn.idn will work out, Verisign will not sit back and watch idn.idn grab market share from idn.com and idn.net. While ccTLDs will be NSed, gTLDs will be DNAMEd.

There is no longer any great certainty that either ccTLD or gTLD will be pigeon holed in this fashion. If you read the transcripts of the last from Lisbon, it would actually seem most unlikely now.

Explorer
3rd April 2007, 07:20 PM
There is no longer any great certainty that either ccTLD or gTLD will be pigeon holed in this fashion. If you read the transcripts of the last from Lisbon, it would actually seem most unlikely now.

The meetings, transcripts and timeline will change many times before idn.idn is implemented

At this time of uncertainty, I am betting on two things:

1. Verisign is on our side and will protect its .com and .net brands.
2. Latin IDNs will be valuable no matter what.

Prodigy
4th April 2007, 11:38 AM
you're right, i've realized that i've made a huge error and probably need to get rid of my .cn domains at reg fee and reinvest back into .com.

Now with the .jp debacle, I guess i'm going to have to get rid of those as well!

Buying Chinese and Japanese .com domains!

ChinaStar, read this:

Philosophy of ccTLD's. They come and they go.

http://www.idnforums.com/forums/1873-philosophy-of-cctlds-they-come-and-they-go.html?highlight=philosophy

blastfromthepast
5th April 2007, 12:07 AM
you're right, i've realized that i've made a huge error and probably need to get rid of my .cn domains at reg fee and reinvest back into .com.

Please PM your list of domains, I'll pay $1 + regfee for your .cn domains (must be at dynadot or other non-Chinese registrar.)

Prodigy
5th April 2007, 12:39 AM
Please PM your list of domains, I'll pay $1 + regfee for your .cn domains (must be at dynadot or other non-Chinese registrar.)
PM Sent.

touchring
5th April 2007, 06:37 AM
The meetings, transcripts and timeline will change many times before idn.idn is implemented

At this time of uncertainty, I am betting on two things:

1. Verisign is on our side and will protect its .com and .net brands.
2. Latin IDNs will be valuable no matter what.


That goes without saying. btw, i noticed that deparking might also help for latins with minimal traffic - one of my names gets $1.50 a mth at ND now gets $10 a month adsense. But it took 5 months for the traffic to pickup. For the first 2 to 3 months, i got even less than ND.

.CN is a waste of time as everyone knows it is complicated by red tape, restrictions, and a system that puts your domains in danger.

Truly global companies like IKEA just get their domain in all languages in .com, a simple consistent approach.


I think .CN has a good prospect in about 10 years - in case anyone wants to criticise the timeline, a note that many of the prime .CN holders have renewed for 6 years! Since 2000. And some of the best .CN names i've checked have been renewed till 2015.

I'm acquiring .CN and dot gongsi, but in view of the costly renewals and long wait, i've discarded a few names, and my strategy has changed recently:

1. Only the best commercial names (2 or 3 characters) relevant to the Internet.
2. No fancy single character unless superprime, like Employ, Sell, Buy.
3. Priced in RMB.