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lixie
18th April 2007, 11:19 AM
IDN.com can't be accessed in IE6.

转码IP被屏蔽 数万.com中文域名不能访问

http://home.donews.com/donews/article/1/113060.html

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 11:22 AM
heh heh heh... I think I can see what's coming...

alpha
18th April 2007, 11:36 AM
heh heh heh... I think I can see what's coming...

what do you see in the tealeaves CS?

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 11:37 AM
what do you see in the tealeaves CS?

Why don't you PM me and we can discuss.

touchring
18th April 2007, 11:41 AM
No fear, i'm now offering a cut loss before it is too late solution - please send me your idn.com/.net list, max buy price $300 for .com and $60 for .net.

Only names with Google trends AND a minimum of 3 Google.cn ads will be considered - please do not send me lesser names.

This is a serious offer. :)

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 11:47 AM
Only names with Google trends AND a minimum of 3 Google.cn ads will be considered - please do not send me lesser names.


What's the point when nobody is going to be able to enter the website to click on your ads touch? ;)

I've got a better offer: List of .CN names for sale, interested parties must be willing to spend 5k and over!

Rubber Duck
18th April 2007, 11:52 AM
Why don't you PM me and we can discuss.

So is this a rumour to propagated by whisphers or a story that is going to be subjected to objective analysis?

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 11:55 AM
So is this a rumour to propagated by whisphers or a story that is going to be subjected to objective analysis?

What I think about ccTLD versus TLD is controversial to users here and is just cause for abuse.

For me it is not so much a case of convincing, as a case for discussion, however too many cooks spoil the soup!

I'd love to discuss with you as well if you're interested.

alpha
18th April 2007, 12:00 PM
lets get this discussion out in the open.

i'll start it off.

So the theory is that the Chinese meddling internet police have/or will very soon block all IDN.com traffic.

why?

to further stengthen the grip of IDN.cn which is being promoted to death right now.

it would certainly do away with all those evil .com domain names they can't control



discuss..

[and for the record I have over 400 chinese domain .coms and thousands tied up in investment, so there is no hidden agenda from me - I just want open debate]

Wot
18th April 2007, 12:06 PM
So is this a rumour to propagated by whisphers or a story that is going to be subjected to objective analysis?

Nah, lets keep it a secret, who on earth would want to debate something like this.:eek:


Wot do you think this forum is for? discussion and debate and sharing info with peers - nah :rolleyes:

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 12:08 PM
Nah, lets keep it a secret, who on earth would want to debate something like this.:eek:


Wot do you think this forum is for? discussion and debate and sharing info with peers - nah :rolleyes:

Somethings we sweep under the table or push into that dark closet underneath the stairs like a red-haired step child

Giant
18th April 2007, 12:14 PM
IDN.com can't be accessed in IE6.

转码IP被屏蔽 数万.com中文域名不能访问

http://home.donews.com/donews/article/1/113060.html

All nonsense!

IE6 VeriSign plug-in is disabled by Microsoft to promote IE7. China has never blocked and will never blocked VeriSign because China and VeriSign are partners in building China's internet.

Don't post ignorant comments with malicious intent!

Rubber Duck
18th April 2007, 12:17 PM
I think that Chinastar was trying to suggest that they would block dot com so that only dot CN would be used.

For control of the Internet, why would they need to do that? If the Chinese wanted their own introspective internet they could do that tomorrow without any of the theatrics. The point is they don't, otherwise they would not be engaging with ICANN to try to resolve IDN.IDN. They just would not need to.

Does China need to control the DNAME name register to controll the content on the Internet? Clearly no and even if they did they would need to block all ASCII.com which clearly they have made absolutely no attempt to do so.

With a 1 Trillion plus reserve balance that is growing exponentially, does China rely heavily on the small amount of cash that CNNIC generates? Well if you think that then you clearly have no comprehension of what is going on.

Are there issues of national pride at stake? Yes, very clearly there are. But the issue has always been about language and script to a much greater degree than who acts as the registry for the domain names. No doubt they would like to see dot CN widely used. Are they so desperate to achieve that they will go to extent of banning dot com?

Well if you want the answer to las question to be Yes, and you want to win the debate, then it is best to hold in private with a small clique who have the same vested interests as yourself. That way you will stand a much better chance of being able to convince yourself you are right.

mulligan
18th April 2007, 12:19 PM
It doesn't surprise me in the slightest and is, from the Chinese goverment perspective a wise and prudent decision. Not really known for freedom of information now, are they? And, the millions of Yuan they stand to make from it I would imagine has little or nothing to do with it

Something I said 2 days ago was ominously close to this
http://www.idnforums.com/forums/10587-is-icann-losing-control-over-their-single-dns-root.html

Rubber Duck
18th April 2007, 12:25 PM
Tinkering around like this, however, is totally unnecessary. If they want people in China to only be able to visit dot CN sites they can do this tomorrow, without any real difficulty. Putting a logical argument into the resolution process such as .CN=> TRUE and .COM => FALSE would be very easy, but it would affect all the dot COM ASCII sites, as well. These sites, however, seem to be aloof from the restrictive ideological imperialism that you are referring to. Could this be because it is just paranoid rubbish?

Giant
18th April 2007, 12:31 PM
These negative news have been posted on Chinese forums everyday since 2000. They are written by Dot CN domainers and they have all been proved just rumours.

I challenge anyone to prove that China has ever blocked VeriSign even a minute since 2000.

touchring
18th April 2007, 12:34 PM
What's the point when nobody is going to be able to enter the website to click on your ads touch? ;)



Well, i am willing to take the risk. When i started buying chinese .coms in dec 05, i didn't even know if they were intermitently blocked by the great firewall as sedo stats fluctuated wildly. :o

Rubber Duck
18th April 2007, 12:38 PM
What's the point when nobody is going to be able to enter the website to click on your ads touch? ;)

I've got a better offer: List of .CN names for sale, interested parties must be willing to spend 5k and over!

Yes, which is of course were this was always leading in the first place. :o

Have you ever asked yourself why most IDN.com holders don't feel the need to constantly pass comment on dot CN domains?

touchring
18th April 2007, 12:39 PM
I've got a better offer: List of .CN names for sale, interested parties must be willing to spend 5k and over!


My offer is better - you can actually get back some money. :p

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 12:39 PM
Well if you want the answer to las question to be Yes, and you want to win the debate, then it is best to hold in private with a small clique who have the same vested interests as yourself. That way you will stand a much better chance of being able to convince yourself you are right.

I don't need a small clique RD, time will tell whether I was right or wrong. The verdict is not out yet, but I stick to what my acumen tells me.

Yes, which is of course were this was always leading in the first place. :o

Have you ever asked yourself why most IDN.com holders don't feel the need to constantly pass comment on dot CN domains?

It's a crime to sell .cn now? Heh, dude you get more ridiculous by the day.

To answer your second question, yes. But I bet you that the answer would upset alot of you.

Like I said, be patient and wait for the verdict before you start blowing your horns. I've provided alot of data to back up what i've been saying about .CN domains and I continue to stick to what i've seen and analyzed. Go over the previous threads and look through the stats and information articles i've put up. They aren't written by me, i'm only the messenger.

alpha
18th April 2007, 12:44 PM
Yes, which is of course were this was always leading in the first place. :o


hey thats not fair RD.

That could slur could quite easily be levelled at you what with you being the owner of Chinese Domains Ltd and a massive holder of .com and not a single .cn [as far as i know]

what happened to the open debate not fuelled by personal interests?

Giant
18th April 2007, 12:45 PM
Tinkering around like this, however, is totally unnecessary. If they want people in China to only be able to visit dot CN sites they can do this tomorrow, without any real difficulty.

No, actually no one in China has the power to control people what url to use. China has worked very hard in the last 2 decades to make the country to be ruled by laws. Using Dot Com domains for business is one of the basic rights of the people guaranteed by China's Constitution, and Dot Com community is very big and powerful in China. People that suggest China would block Dot Com are simply ignorant and stupid.

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 12:45 PM
My offer is better - you can actually get back some money. :p

What did somebody say about .cn being the future? ;)

Although this article is from 2000, I have not seen anything that retracts the statements about "sovereign rights" to the Chinese language.

(archived)
http://www.chguy.net/news/nov00/china.html

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200011/29/eng20001129_56437.html

Rubber Duck
18th April 2007, 01:06 PM
It is entirely fair as I am not the one making assertions.

I have never doubted the ability for dot CN to succeed as a registry. And I do hold a few myself.

Do I go around spreading rumours that the Chinese will confiscate foriegn holdings of Dot CN? No I bloody don't because I don't believe that Chinese have a vested interest in behaving in such a crass and arbituary manner. Nor do I believe they would act in similar manner against dot com.


hey thats not fair RD.

That could slur could quite easily be levelled at you what with you being the owner of Chinese Domains Ltd and a massive holder of .com and not a single .cn [as far as i know]

what happened to the open debate not fuelled by personal interests?

bwhhisc
18th April 2007, 01:17 PM
If China wants to do business with the WORLD, they will open every possible doorway to business,
and that includes .com, .cn, .net, .ws and down the line. If you do business with China directly or
indirectly you know exactly what I mean.

To exclude any opportunities would in no way serve their long range economic goals.
What you have going on here today is perhaps nothing more that a bit of a political chess game.

mulligan
18th April 2007, 01:19 PM
No, actually no one in China has the power to control people what url to use ....
And thats why I can visit websites with information about Falungong (Banned) or the Tianamen Square massacre (Didn't happen) or the Dali Llama (Who?) etc etc from inside China.
That you or I have invested in Chinese.com isn't going to change the fact that they could shut it all down if they so desired. One of the most compelling reasons for a wide and varied portfolio of languages if ever there was one.

alpha
18th April 2007, 01:21 PM
And thats why I can visit websites with information about Falungong (Banned) or the Tianamen Square massacre (Didn't happen) or the Dali Llama (Who?) etc etc from inside China.
That you or I have invested in Chinese.com isn't going to change the fact that they could shut it all down if they so desired. One of the most compelling reasons for a wide and varied portfolio of languages if ever there was one.

wasnt google banned once?

and that includes ... .ws and down the line.

really. wow. they are going for it.

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 01:26 PM
If China wants to do business with the WORLD, they will open every possible doorway to business,
and that includes .com, .cn, .net, .ws and down the line. If you do business with China directly or
indirectly you know exactly what I mean.

To exclude any opportunities would in no way serve their long range economic goals.
What you have going on here today is perhaps nothing more that a bit of a political chess game.

I agree with you and I agreed with Frank when he said it was necessary to have a .com domain for world trade. ASCII.com to be exact.

But we're talking about IDNs, IDN's will never become the platform for world trade, they are a platform for local markets.

An Anglo-Saxon I-Banker is never going to be able to type investmentopportunity.com in Chinese, even if it is in a .com extension. When he searches it on the net, he's not going to be able to recognize it in the webaddress tag.

It is about the localization of your domain name to your target market which is why ccTLD makes more sense to me.

ctc
18th April 2007, 01:28 PM
IDN.com can't be accessed in IE6.

转码IP被屏蔽 数万.com中文域名不能访问

http://home.donews.com/donews/article/1/113060.html

is it accessed with IE7?

alpha
18th April 2007, 01:29 PM
I agree with you and I agreed with Frank when he said it was necessary to have a .com domain for world trade. ASCII.com to be exact.

But we're talking about IDNs, IDN's will never become the platform for world trade, they are a platform for local markets.

An Anglo-Saxon I-Banker is never going to be able to type investmentopportunity.com in Chinese, even if it is in a .com extension. When he searches it on the net, he's not going to be able to recognize it in the webaddress tag.

It is about the localization of your domain name to your target market which is why ccTLD makes more sense to me.

as much as i hate to hear it, that is a compelling arguement

touchring
18th April 2007, 01:35 PM
And thats why I can visit websites with information about Falungong (Banned) or the Tianamen Square massacre (Didn't happen) or the Dali Llama (Who?) etc etc from inside China.
That you or I have invested in Chinese.com isn't going to change the fact that they could shut it all down if they so desired. One of the most compelling reasons for a wide and varied portfolio of languages if ever there was one.



For those who do not want to deal with the devil, don't forget my offer. Might be revised depending on how the situation develops. ;)

mulligan
18th April 2007, 01:39 PM
For those who do not want to deal with the devil, don't forget my offer. Might be revised depending on how the situation develops. ;)

I am well use to dealing with the devil so I will ride this one out ... :)


VeriSign i-Nav™ Plug-in--Users of the VeriSign i-Nav IDN Resolver Plug-in might notice that they are unable to navigate to Internationalized Domain Names (IDNs) in Internet Explorer 7. This is caused by Internet Explorer 7 enhanced support for IDNs. To navigate to IDNs in Internet Explorer 7, follow these steps:

Open Internet Explorer, and then click the Tools button.
Click Manage Add Ons, and then click Enable or Disable Add Ons.
Find and click the listing for i-Nav browser extensions.
Under Settings, click Disable.http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/ie/aa740486.aspx

Rubber Duck
18th April 2007, 02:01 PM
I agree with you and I agreed with Frank when he said it was necessary to have a .com domain for world trade. ASCII.com to be exact.

But we're talking about IDNs, IDN's will never become the platform for world trade, they are a platform for local markets.

An Anglo-Saxon I-Banker is never going to be able to type investmentopportunity.com in Chinese, even if it is in a .com extension. When he searches it on the net, he's not going to be able to recognize it in the webaddress tag.

It is about the localization of your domain name to your target market which is why ccTLD makes more sense to me.

Frank has not understood this thing yet. World Trade is simply the summation of local trade. There are really very few global brands and most of them use localised versions. Even bloody Coca Cola has different representations across the globe.

No IDN won't be a platform for World Trade and neither will ASCII.com in any meaningful sense. The whole concept of a global anchor site with just one access address is just totally flawed.

ccTLD have been very useful particulary in the UK. It has been a very good way for the British to focus on useful relevant material rather than having it diluted with 90% English content from the US which is general of no use to the British whatsoever.

Our own ccTLD has been very useful in that respect and we cannot differentiate on language or script. The Germans have much the same problem as again they more or less share a script if not a language.

Once you get out of the Latin Zone of influence, the main thing that is going to determine content relevance is Script, not extension. The extension are therefore not an essential tool, merely a preference. I cannot be sure to the extent to which dot com will be preferred over ccTLD or vis-versa, but I do know that many of the arguments that make ccTLDs highly attractive in Europe do not forcibly apply to Asia.

The Chinese and the Japanese have traditional branded heavily on dot com in preference to their own ccTLD. The introduction of IDN make the need for ccTLD as a differentiator much less important. I see no sound reason for the useage of extensions to change fundamentally. If anything the slope on the table toward ccTLD has been flattened.

The two factor that have mitigated agains ccTLD in Asia have been price and the potential for legal or political interference. To promote their own extensions, the Japanese and Chinese need to convince the markets they are going to behave in fair and transparent manner. I believe that they will, but most people will be more inclined to trust Verisign.

On price, a lot of progress has been made but more is needed.

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 02:12 PM
I largely agree with you except for your comments on Chinese and Japanese ccTLD.

1. Chinese registration of .CN outnumbers .COM (since 2004)
2. Marketing of .JP domain websites outnumbers .COM

Where are you coming up with the conclusion that China and Japan have predominantly branded in .com?

You are right about the fact that there needs to be more stability in terms of personal ownership for both extensions, however, the primary purpose of domain names is not for "investment" but rather for usage.

In a perfect world all domain names would be used to provide additional meaningful content and would be bought/sold at reasonable prices.

The reason why English is the language of international business is because the majority of the world's current top economies are English based or English literate. It makes sense that an ASCII.com website can appeal to a greater audience around the world. Once again, this will change with the rise of the Chinese/ Indian/ Vietnemese consumer.

Pricing for .com's used to run in the 100's if i'm not mistaken. (early days) Pricing is just a barrier used to deter people from hoarding domain names. It does not stop those that are willing to run the risk though.

Frank has not understood this thing yet. World Trade is simply the summation of local trade. There are really very few global brands and most of them use localised versions. Even bloody Coca Cola has different representations across the globle.

No IDN won't be a platform for World Trade and neither will ASCII.com in any meaningful sense. The whole concept of a global anchor site with just access address is just totally flawed.

ccTLD have been very useful particulary in the UK. It has been a very good way for the British to focus on useful relevant material rather than having it diluted with 90% English content from the US which is general of no use to the British whatsoever.

Our own ccTLD has been very useful in that respect and we cannot differentiate on language or script. The Germans have much the same problem as again they more or less share a script if not a language.

Once you get out of the Latin Zone of influence, the main thing that is going to determine content relevance is Script, not extension. The extension are therefore not an essential tool, merely a preference. I cannot be sure to the extent to which dot com will be preferred over ccTLD or vis-versa, but I do know that many of the arguments that make ccTLDs highly attractive in Europe do not forcibly apply to Asia.

The Chinese and the Japanese have traditional branded heavily on dot com in preference to their own ccTLD. The introduction of IDN make the need for ccTLD as a differentiator much less important. I see no sound reason for the useage of extensions to change fundamentally. If anything the slope on the table toward ccTLD has been flattened.

The two factor that have mitigated agains ccTLD in Asia have been price and the potential for legal or political interference. To promote their own extensions, the Japanese and Chinese need to convince the markets they are going to behave in fair and transparent manner. I believe that they will, but most people will be more inclined to trust Verisign.

On price, a lot of progress has been made but more is need.

jacksonm
18th April 2007, 02:16 PM
It is about the localization of your domain name to your target market which is why ccTLD makes more sense to me.

There are many languages which span multiple countries.

- Spanish
- French
- Arabic
- Chinese
- Portugese

The list goes on.

.

Rubber Duck
18th April 2007, 02:18 PM
Actually it was from CNNICs latest report, that dot Com registrations are still slightly ahead of dot CN at the begining of 2007.

I am afraid that you will need to show many more than the current 127K registrations of IDN.JP which accounts for only a tiny proportion of Japan's requirement for domains that this is going to be the bedrock for main Japanese sites. Even if you analyse that 127K registrations you will see that most of those are held by speculators and bloggers.


I largely agree with you except for your comments on Chinese and Japanese ccTLD.

1. Chinese registration of .CN outnumbers .COM (since 2004)
2. Marketing of .JP domain websites outnumbers .COM

Where are you coming up with the conclusion that China and Japan have predominantly branded in .com?

You are right about the fact that there needs to be more stability in terms of personal ownership for both extensions, however, the primary purpose of domain names is not for "investment" but rather for usage.

In a perfect world all domain names would be used to provide additional meaningful content and would be bought/sold at reasonable prices.

The reason why English is the language of international business is because the majority of the world's current top economies are English based or English literate. It makes sense that an ASCII.com website can appeal to a greater audience around the world. Once again, this will change with the rise of the Chinese/ Indian/ Vietnemese consumer.

Pricing for .com's used to run in the 100's if i'm not mistaken. (early days) Pricing is just a barrier used to deter people from hoarding domain names. It does not stop those that are willing to run the risk though.

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 02:21 PM
There are many languages which span multiple countries.

- Spanish
- French
- Arabic
- Chinese
- Portugese

The list goes on.

.

I can only speak for Chinese and Japanese because those are the languages i'm familiar with:

1. Number of speakers within the country as opposed to speakers outside

2. Billingual speakers outside the country that CAN surf the web in English as opposed to their native tongue. Weren't the purpose of IDNs to help Non-English speakers surf the internet which makes it essential?

The number of Chinese in the Western hemisphere that actively surf the web and are not billingual is miniscule. Having been within the Chinese community in New York, Philadelphia and London, non-English speakers are close to none. (Unless you're talking about 50 to 60 year olds, or minimum wage workers who do not use the internet anyway)

Rubber Duck
18th April 2007, 02:22 PM
Arabic is extremely interesting.

If you want to hit the Pan Arabic market then there really is no existing alternative to dot com.

Also, the Arab representatives at ICANN want to ensure that all names are written out in full in the extension, where as Verisign seems to want to use a single character.

It will be interesting who has understood the market and who has just assumed that that they had an intrinsic understanding of the market.

There are many languages which span multiple countries.

- Spanish
- French
- Arabic
- Chinese
- Portugese

The list goes on.

.

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 02:34 PM
Actually it was from CNNICs latest report, that dot Com registrations are still slightly ahead of dot CN at the begining of 2007.

I am afraid that you will need to show many more than the current 127K registrations of IDN.JP which accounts for only a tiny proportion of Japan's requirement for domains that this is going to be the bedrock for main Japanese sites. Even if you analyse that 127K registrations you will see that most of those are held by speculators and bloggers.

You're right. There is about a 3.3% gap between .CN and .COM registrations as of the end of 2006. At 39.99 a year. I will be interesting to see how much that gap has changed since the release of new .cn pricing.

In terms of .JP, riding the trains, watching media in Japan is really the only way that I have to get a feel of what's being put out. I am sure that Olney and other residents in Japan will tell you that the majority of companies that advertise do so with a second or third level .jp domain.

Once again, verdict still needs to come in. When we talk about IDN versus ASCII there are alot of intangibles that might come into play. I just like what I see from .cn and .jp at the moment.

"Under the native environment of rapid development of the Internet, China show greater demand and developed broader application on Internet addresses. Total domain names in China now touched 4,109,020, which is 1.16 million more than 6 months ago, averaged at 200 thousand net growths per month. The .CN domain name reach 1,803,393, which are 706,469 or 64.4% greater than the same period last year. The .CN today ranks fourth among all ccTLDs and brings China's Internet into the .CN era."

Rubber Duck
18th April 2007, 03:09 PM
Yes, I have the CNNIC reference:

http://cnnic.cn/uploadfiles/pdf/2007/2/14/200607.pdf

Page 27 of 83 and I quote:

>>
3. Domain Names

Statistics shows that China totally (including .CN ccTLD and gTLD) 4,109,020 domain names. Among them 1,939,343 names were registered in dot Com, which account for 47.2% of the total; 1,803,393 (43.9%) names were registered in dot CN.<<

?So how do we reconcile this with such statements such as as:

I largely agree with you except for your comments on Chinese and Japanese ccTLD.

1. Chinese registration of .CN outnumbers .COM (since 2004)
2. Marketing of .JP domain websites outnumbers .COM.

I will be much more impressed with yours claims about volume of reseach, when the quality is shown to be a bit higher than is evident at the moment.

I think I should also point out the dot com are those registered by China Residents, whether IDN or ASCII, whilst the dot CN figures are totals for the dot CN registry whether Chinse Residents or not.

It is also clear that there has been something of a rush to pick up ASCII.CN by western speculators, because these domains are virtually being given away. It always amuses me why people plough into domains that are free or at give away prices. Why bother, when even the registry has nearly given up on the idea of making any money from these names? Anyway, the point is that even by CNNICs own perspective, even given their less than perfect methods of measurement, they are running second to dot COM.

zfreud
18th April 2007, 03:25 PM
CNNIC's own numbers show that .com continues to be the most popular TLD in China, though it did lose some momentum in relation to .cn in the past six months.

China has approximately 4,109,020 domain names registered to Chinese companies and citizens (including names registered in .CN ccTLD and gTLDs). Of these, .com’s market share is currently 47.2% and shows continued growth though .cn does appear to now be growing faster.

The bottom line is that domains in .com and .cn will both clearly be desirable for years to come.

The past three CNNIC statistcal reports how the following (note that ".cn" includes all subdomains of .cn such as .com.cn .gov.cn, etc):

CNNIC: 17th Statistical Survey Report on the Internet Development in China (Jan. 2006)
.COM 1,202,497 46.4%
.CN 1,096,924 42.3%
.NET 216,533 8.4%
ORG 76,456 2.9%
Total 2,592,410 100.0%

CNNIC: 18th Statistical Survey Report on the Internet Development in China (July. 2006)
.COM 1,435,768 48.7%
.CN 1,190,617 40.3%
.NET 249,555 8.5%
ORG 74,560 2.5%
Total 2,592,410 100.0%

CNNIC: 19th Statistical Survey Report on the Internet Development in China (January. 2007)

.COM 1,939,343 47.2%
.CN 1,803,393 43.9%
.NET 299,108 7.3%
.ORG 67,176 1.6%
Total 4,109,020 100.0%


The 19th Statiscal Survey report also shows there continues to be more .com live websites developed than .cn:

Chinese Websites by TLD:
.COM 392,011 46.5%
.CN 367,418 43.6%

Now is the Chinese Govt myopic enough to cripple their own industry? Disabling .com domains would mean that upwards of 40% of chinese companies would suddenly go offline. If Chariman Mao was still in charge, no doubt that would be possible. But the reality is that we are dealing with a very different China today.

Rubber Duck
18th April 2007, 03:27 PM
Even here your assertions are fundamentally wrong.

The test is not whether that can meet a certain level of competence in navigating using ASCII characters, it what their preference would be given the choice. You should also note that those with language competences may choose to do different things in different situations.

If they want to do business, they might choose English whilst going back to Chinese for Social Networking.


I can only speak for Chinese and Japanese because those are the languages i'm familiar with:

1. Number of speakers within the country as opposed to speakers outside

2. Billingual speakers outside the country that CAN surf the web in English as opposed to their native tongue. Weren't the purpose of IDNs to help Non-English speakers surf the internet which makes it essential?

The number of Chinese in the Western hemisphere that actively surf the web and are not billingual is miniscule. Having been within the Chinese community in New York, Philadelphia and London, non-English speakers are close to none. (Unless you're talking about 50 to 60 year olds, or minimum wage workers who do not use the internet anyway)

zfreud
18th April 2007, 03:31 PM
"I think I should also point out the dot com are those registered by China Residents, whether IDN or ASCII, whilst the dot CN figures are totals for the dot CN registry whether Chinse Residents or not"

that's an interesting point duck.

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 03:33 PM
Yes, I have the CNNIC reference:

http://cnnic.cn/uploadfiles/pdf/2007/2/14/200607.pdf

Page 27 of 83 and I quote:

>>
3. Domain Names

Statistics shows that China totally (including .CN ccTLD and gTLD) 4,109,020 domain names. Among them 1,939,343 names were registered in dot Com, which account for 47.2% of the total; 1,803,393 (43.9%) names were registered in dot CN.<<

?So how do we reconcile this with such statements such as as:



I will be much more impressed with yours claims about volume of reseach, when the quality is shown to be a bit higher than is evident at the moment.

I think I should also point out the dot com are those registered by China Residents, whether IDN or ASCII, whilst the dot CN figures are totals for the dot CN registry whether Chinse Residents or not.

It is also clear that there has been something of a rush to pick up ASCII.CN by western speculators, because these domains are virtually being given away. It always amuses me why people plough into domains that are free or at give away prices. Why bother, when even the registry has nearly given up on the idea of making any money from these names? Anyway, the point is that even by CNNICs own perspective, even given their less than perfect methods of measurement, they are running second to dot COM.

You're always quick on the draw to make the arguement personal are you not? If you want to have a civil discussion, keep it civil and not personal RD. If not you are more than welcome to flounder in your own opinions and ego.

How about you sell me your domains now based on your predicitons for April 2007?

Regarding research, I had an article posted up a few threads ago about .cn overtaking .com in terms of volume that was dated to 2004.

You ask me why I am unwilling to discuss this out in the open and it is simply because you and Giant continually bash down the prospects out of self interest and preservation.

"Anyway, the point is that even by CNNICs own perspective, even given their less than perfect methods of measurement, they are running second to dot COM."

The entire report was talking about how China has entered the era of .CN if you failed to grasp their main message.

zfreud
18th April 2007, 03:41 PM
I agree with ChinaStar that .cn will obviously gain more traction and indeed already is. How much relative to .com remains to be seen. The bottom line is that the promotion of idn.cn will be very beneficial to idn.com.

If you own domains in either TLD, you should be happy. I personally consider both to be equivalent assets...though .cn brings with it more operational risk. But that's the case no matter how one does business in China.

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 03:42 PM
Even here your assertions are fundamentally wrong.

The test is not whether that can meet a certain level of competence in navigating using ASCII characters, it what their preference would be given the choice. You should also note that those with language competences may choose to do different things in different situations.

If they want to do business, they might choose English whilst going back to Chinese for Social Networking.

To understand that the fundemental principle of IDNs is to allow non-english speakers to surf the web is fundementally wrong?

You are making assertions again without evidence, this is your assertion of your perspective on the behavior of the future IDN user. Do you know this for certain?

All I was saying is that you have to look at the numbers. Take my comments in context, we were talking about why a concept of localization based on language was valid.

I'm tired of arguing a moot point here with you and Giant.

Being two of the largest holders of Chinese .COM names it is obvious what your intentions are.

Due to the hostile reception, I am no longer sharing any information or insights as to the .CN extension. You guys can bake and flounder by yourselves.

Rubber Duck
18th April 2007, 03:43 PM
So attributing your own arguments to you and expecting you to respond to them is making them personal?

If you come on here and spout rubbish, you should expect to have it shown up as such.

I have not attempted to bash IDN.CN, indeed I believe they are a very good thing. I don't believe, however, that they should be over-hyped any more than any other domain. If you actually study my sales threads on this forum, I have never gone to any lengths to hype any of my domains beyond a bit of basic information. That strategy has to date proved much more successful than the big coloured fonts and energetic sales pitches of many that advertise their wares here.

Even Zfreud assertion that damaging dot Com would damage over 40% of the its Industry goes a long way to underestimate the impact.

Don't forget nearly all Chinese Governmental and Nationalised Industry sites will be on dot CN, and that dot Com will generally represent the more progressive export oriented side of China's Industry. Furthermore, the Government Agencies have been more or less forced to double up in quick order. This is not so much an expansion as a duplication.

Indeed the duplication is being encouraged by making the ASCII version almost free. At one level that is probably to help get people over the pain of necessary duplication, but at the other it might also be done to flatter CNNICs statistics.

rhys
18th April 2007, 03:55 PM
Wow what an unpleasant thread all around. I own a lot of Japanese as everyone knows, I own some thai, vietnamese, hindi, a couple of arabic, farsi, urdu, and i believe 2 bulgarian domains. Oh and 1 korean domain too. But outside of those with dual meanings (jp/ch) I don't own a single chinese domain. Just far too much political risk and volatility associated with China. I admire you guys for riding the roller coaster though.

Prodigy
18th April 2007, 03:57 PM
So attributing your own arguments to you and expecting you to respond to them is making them personal?

If you come on here and spout rubbish, you should expect to have it shown up as such.

Even Zfreud assertion that damaging dot Com would damage over 40% of the its Industry goes a long way to underestimate the impact.

Don't forget nearly all Chinese Governmental and Nationalised Industry sites will be on dot CN, and that dot Com will generally represent the more progressive export oriented side of China's Industry. Furthermore, the Government Agencies have been more or less forced to double up in quick order. This is not so much an expansion as a duplication.

Indeed the duplication is being encouraged by making the ASCII version almost free. At one level that is probably to help get people over the pain of necessary duplication, but at the other it might also be done to flatter CNNICs statistics.

"You're right. There is about a 3.3% gap between .CN and .COM registrations as of the end of 2006"-ChinaStar

"I will be much more impressed with yours claims about volume of reseach, when the quality is shown to be a bit higher than is evident at the moment."-RD

I took responsibility for my comments. You made it personal.

This is literally pearl to swine, and in the year of the pig RD, you're one obnoxious hog.

Within the next 2 years, I fully expect .CN to outstrip .COM in value, usage and registration in China. On BOTH an ascii and IDN level. .COMs value in China will largely be only for ASCII.

Within the same period of time we will see the same for the Japanese market.

IDN.COM portfolios will be worth the equivalent of .net compared to ccTLD portfolios.

Take it or leave it, scream or shout, time will be the judge. These are my predictions.

p.s.
On this thread, I did not say once that China would ever ban the .com extension.

Hugs and Kisses,
Chinastar

touchring
18th April 2007, 04:01 PM
Wow what an unpleasant thread all around. I own a lot of Japanese as everyone knows, I own some thai, vietnamese, hindi, a couple of arabic, farsi, urdu, and i believe 2 bulgarian domains. Oh and 1 korean domain too. But outside of those with dual meanings (jp/ch) I don't own a single chinese domain. Just far too much political risk and volatility associated with China. I admire you guys for riding the roller coaster though.


Buffett Speaks -- GuruFocus.com

http://www.gurufocus.com/news.php?id=4388

"The whole company was selling for $35 billion. It was selling for one-fourth of the price of Exxon, but was making profits equal to 80% of Exxon. I was reading the annual report one day and in it I saw a message from the Chairman saying that the company would pay out 45% of its profits as dividends. This was much more than any company like this, and I liked the reserves."

"I was considering buying this company, but I was also looking at Yukos in Russia. This was cheap, too. I decided I’d rather be in China than Russia. I liked the investment climate better in China. In July, the owner of Yukos , Mikhail Khodorkovsky (at that time, the richest man in Russia) had breakfast with me and was asking for my consultation if they should expand into New York and if this was too onerous considering the SEC regs. Four months later, Khodorkovsky was in prison. Putin put him in. He took on Putin and lost. His decision on geopolitical thinking was wrong and now the company is finished. Petro China was the superior investment choice. 45% was a crazy amount of dividends to offer but China kept its word. I am never quite as happy as I am in the US, because the laws are more uncertain elsewhere, but the point is to buy things cheap."

"So we own 1.3% of this company and it cost us around $400 million. Now it's worth $3 billion."

rhys
18th April 2007, 04:20 PM
In buffett's case I agree with his statement. The investment market buffett speaks of does not include domain names. The political risk is high with them exactly because the chinese government seems to view them as tools to control the internet. There are no powerful rational external forces exerting influence with the Chinese government that give a damn about domain names as far as I can see.

There is no question in my mind that some folks will get rich off Chinese domain names someday. It is just that who that will be is from my point of view completely impossible to predict because the government plays such a huge factor unlike in Japan say. I'm not close enough to that market to make an intelligent guess which is why i stay out of it.

markits
18th April 2007, 04:24 PM
Don't forget nearly all Chinese Governmental and Nationalised Industry sites will be on dot CN, and that dot Com will generally represent the more progressive export oriented side of China's Industry. Furthermore, the Government Agencies have been more or less forced to double up in quick order. This is not so much an expansion as a duplication.



No doubt that cns are hot, but domains can be used by cn gov-s worth very little in value: low commercial value; risky to own these domains.

Big companies will use .com in China, for whatever industries. As "likenobody" pointed out, dot com is the big brother in China. You should trust experienced native Chinese in this regard.

touchring
18th April 2007, 04:33 PM
In buffett's case I agree with his statement. The investment market buffett speaks of does not include domain names. The political risk is high with them exactly because the chinese government seems to view them as tools to control the internet. There are no powerful rational external forces exerting influence with the Chinese government that give a damn about domain names as far as I can see.

There is no question in my mind that some folks will get rich off Chinese domain names someday. It is just that who that will be is from my point of view completely impossible to predict because the government plays such a huge factor unlike in Japan say. I'm not close enough to that market to make an intelligent guess which is why i stay out of it.


There's no political risk for .com - the chinese government doesn't own it.

zfreud
18th April 2007, 04:41 PM
Top chinese websites and the TLD they promote to consumers in order of traffic volume:


1: baidu.com
2: qq.com
3: sina.com.cn
4: sohu.com
5: 163.com
6: taobao.com
7: yahoo.com.cn
8: google.cn
9: google.com
10: tom.com
11: msn.com
12: xunlei.com
13: vnet.cn
14: yahoo.com
15: soso.com
16: live.com
17: 126.com
18: eastmoney.com (东方财富网)
19: alibaba.com
20: sogou.com
21: microsoft.com
22: xinhuanet.com
23: zol.com.cn
24: tudou.com (toodou.com)
25: tianya.cn

19 rounds to .com 6 .cn and .com.cn

And the winner, by unanimous decision...

alpha
18th April 2007, 04:51 PM
This has been an interesting debate, its healthy to have apposing views and debate it.

For me, all this has answered one question.


You wonder why the masses haven't invested in idn? You wonder why the secondary market is very slow? No doubt the various new auction platforms are struggling to get momentum, why?

The answer lays in all the previous posts...

...the uncertainty.

Which is why today, tomorrow and the forseeable future it will only ever attract limited numbers of speculators trading in risk

thegenius1
18th April 2007, 05:07 PM
Wow what an unpleasant thread all around. I own a lot of Japanese as everyone knows, I own some thai, vietnamese, hindi, a couple of arabic, farsi, urdu, and i believe 2 bulgarian domains. Oh and 1 korean domain too. But outside of those with dual meanings (jp/ch) I don't own a single chinese domain. Just far too much political risk and volatility associated with China. I admire you guys for riding the roller coaster though.

Hey did you copy and paste my post ;)

So identical even down to owning 1 korean lol ... i do own a handfull of chinese tho

Rubber Duck
18th April 2007, 05:07 PM
I have stayed away to a large extent, but not totally from dot CN and dot JP, not primarily due to the political risk, but due to the legal risk.

If somebody in China wants my domain and is prepared to employ lawyers to get, it, then it will be much more difficult to defend if its is a ccTLD. The same is true of Japan. If they are after a dot com in the US then they have a much bigger problem going after my domain and I have a much smaller one. Also when I started out the ccTLD were 4 times the price. I could not justify that for registries, which at the time were grossly underperforming.

OK, things have changed since then, and the ccTLDs are beginning to look more attractive. I don't, however, have the field almost to myself like I would have 3 years ago, so I am not now going to get that excited about investing in ccTLDs.

I personally doubt that the Chinese or Japanese governments view it as essential to have internet domains registered with them. Desireable? Yes, so they will promote their own brand, but I don't think anyone is about to go to war over this issue.

Yes, clarity is missing, but is coming well within the forseeable future.

Those that seek clarity are investors. When the day comes when this becomes a clear transparent investment, the day of the speculator will have gone.


This has been an interesting debate, its healthy to have apposing views and debate it.

For me, all this has answered one question.


You wonder why the masses haven't invested in idn? You wonder why the secondary market is very slow? No doubt the various new auction platforms are struggling to get momentum, why?

The answer lays in all the previous posts...

...the uncertainty.

Which is why today, tomorrow and the forseeable future it will only ever attract limited numbers of speculators trading in risk

rhys
18th April 2007, 10:44 PM
There's no political risk for .com - the chinese government doesn't own it.

Of course there is political risk. They can block .com if they would like. Even if the world complains will they really care? Just one more thing they can use in a future negotiation.

Neptune
18th April 2007, 10:56 PM
interesting thread... it is good to hear both sides of the issue and i believe it is important to continue to engage in these discussions, however it would be nice if the personal aspect was left outside. After all we are all speculating, and with that comes considerable risk, but may also come with considerable reward.

rhys
18th April 2007, 10:56 PM
I personally doubt that the Chinese or Japanese governments view it as essential to have internet domains registered with them. Desireable? Yes, so they will promote their own brand, but I don't think anyone is about to go to war over this issue.



Let's separate Japanese political risk (which is very low) and Chinese political risk (extremely high) because there is no meaningful comparison between the two. The independence of institutions (courts), the respect for private property, the degree to which each nation is willing to conform to global norms are wholly different.

I agree no one is willing to go to war over the issue, which is PRECISELY why ultimately the Chinese government is free to do what it pleases in the namespace. Not saying they will, but they absolutely can if they want to. Thus the risk.

blastfromthepast
18th April 2007, 10:56 PM
:)

bwhhisc
19th April 2007, 01:26 AM
Companies in China will most likely desire to own both idn.cn and idn.com.

There are many terms (cities in particular) that are blocked by the registry in .jp and .cn where .com
or .net etc. will be the only choices so blocking all .com would not make sense.

http://www.idnforums.com/forums/262-list-of-blocked-reserved-and-unregisterable-idn-domain-names.html

list by jp registry:
http://www.nic.ad.jp/dotjp/doc/dotjp-reserved.html