IDN Development- First Mover Advantage

[idn]

I know many of you have thrown up some quick adsense sites or have done some minor development, but have any of you considered major development projects? If not, do you feel that the risk is still too high? Language barriers? Laziness? Anti- BRICs?

Of course there are still certain limitations, but there is always an advantage in being one of the first in a market.

Thoughts?

[blastfromthepast]

The main advantage is position 1 in Google for age, relevance, and domain.

[idn]

The main advantage is position 1 in Google for age, relevance, and domain.


There are many advantages outside of search ranking. Certain online markets do not even exist in many countries and a properly developed site in the country's native language would have massive potential. They are ready for it. Everything is not about adsense and parked pages.

[alpha]

I was thinking about developing a full blown ecommerce site to sell farmyard animals to Japanese housewives.

Good idea or baaaa'd ?

I assume from this thread you are seriously considering it?

[idn]

I assume from this thread you are seriously considering it?

I guess the purpose of this thread is for someone to convinve why I shouldn't :)

Why hasn't anyone done any major development? Many of us have been idning for two plus years, has no even considered it?

I was thinking about developing a full blown ecommerce site to sell farmyard animals to Japanese housewives.



Good idea, but you would have to form a local partnership. Shipping farmyard animals from the UK would be a bitch.

[Olney]

Probably maintaining the portfolios became a priority for some. That's why I still test site structures (actually I have to anyway), but the adsense revenue maintains the cost of my portfolio.

If you got the time especially in markets undeveloped go for it.

Also time is an issue....

I guess the purpose of this thread is for someone to convinve why I shouldn't :)

Why hasn't anyone done any major development? Many of us have been idning for two plus years, has no even considered it?

[mdw]

As one of the many developers on this forum I've thought about it too. And I also have no substantial IDN sites only adsense and mini-sites. Here's how I score it -

Pros:
search engines like you,
opportunity to establish your brand before would-be competitors
no real barriers to entry,
chance to innovate, forge partnerships, be proactive before competitors arrive on scene


That last point is the most important to me, particularly in the case of an ambitious site project. For example if you build a good system and offer a well-designed API before others enter the market space, they may decide to use your infrastructure - only because you were first to market!

Cons:
your time and money are invested in a very limited market, albeit a growing one, so it needs relatively very high rates of customer conversions or membership signups or whatever the site does to make money - unless you're so ambitious that you're willing to go after mindshare only
may take a couple years to realize roughly the same market reach that an ASCII domain-based competitor site has
ROI is deferred for some time, so your financial requirements are further constrained vesus ASCII domain projects


Again a comment on the last bullet. Why capitalize the project now when other investments (yes including ASCII development) pay well in the here and now? Why not take the money (or use your time to make money) to invest in more domains instead for example?

[alpha]

Why not take the money (or use your time to make money) to invest in more domains instead for example?

and I think that sums it up.

The hardcore IDN believer who has a good portfolio may well have trouble raising funds for such a project, and its arguable that if the funds were available they would prob just reg/buy more names

for those that are not all in, maybe the absolute belief isn't there, therefore they can't sustify financing the project because they see risk.

all in all, this time will come, but it's probably too early now IMO

[Rubber Duck]

There is no first mover advantage as far as I can see it.

There are large players in each market already, albeit they are still currently using addresses from a nearly defunct technology. But since browser support for the new names isn't here they have no choice. Make no mistake once it arrive many of them will move seemlessly across to IDN.

Where is you first mover advantage in terms of site development. The only advantage you might have is that of a much better domain name. Development won't change that.

[idn]

and I think that sums it up.

The hardcore IDN believer who has a good portfolio may well have trouble raising funds for such a project, and its arguable that if the funds were available they would prob just reg/buy more names

for those that are not all in, maybe the absolute belief isn't there, therefore they can't sustify financing the project because they see risk.

all in all, this time will come, but it's probably too early now IMO

I hear you, but if you could develop a sucessful site because of the timing it could be more beneficial than any regs. There also is the added benefit of market awareness of idns. Depending on your portfolio that could be a large benefit on its own.

[domainguru]

There is no first mover advantage as far as I can see it.

There are large players in each market already, albeit they are still currently using addresses from a nearly defunct technology. But since browser support for the new names isn't here they have no choice. Make no mistake once it arrive many of them will move seemlessly across to IDN.

Where is you first mover advantage in terms of site development. The only advantage you might have is that of a much better domain name. Development won't change that.

There is a big advantage actually. Google *loves* sites (and to some extent domains) that have age. So the earlier you develop, the quicker you age, the better your search engine rankings. If you don't develop for another 2-3 years, there is simply no way to "catch up".

And by extention, if you are planning to sell, you are increasing the value of your domains *considerably* by developing / aging them.

[Rubber Duck]

There is a big advantage actually. Google *loves* sites (and to some extent domains) that have age. So the earlier you develop, the quicker you age, the better your search engine rankings. If you don't develop for another 2-3 years, there is simply no way to "catch up".

And by extention, if you are planning to sell, you are increasing the value of your domains *considerably* by developing / aging them.

That is a rational argument in view of past experience, but what happens if 90% of Asian site migrate to a new URL. Google is faced with an entirely new scenario and will just re-tweak its algorithms to cope with an entirely new situation.

It is all about relevance as far as Google is concerned. They will change anything to maintain that primary objective. For that reason, I guess it won't be long before Japanese IDN.ws starts to get filtered out.

[domainguru]

That is a rational argument in view of past experience, but what happens if 90% of Asian site migrate to a new URL. Google is faced with an entirely new scenario and will just re-tweak its algorithms to cope with an entirely new situation.


Well, that depends whether you believe in the "explosion theory" or not. I simply don't believe 90% of Asian sites will up-sticks and move to IDN "suddenly". They have too much invested in their ASCII sites, including (but certainly not limited to) "site age".

Yes, Google are always "tweaking" but they aren't going to start loving new sites. Favouring "old sites" has been a big part of Google's SERPS changes in the last couple of years, and they ain't gonna abandon the idea just because some websites want to rebrand with different domains. In the view of Google, site age = trust = credibility = good SERPs.

[yanni]

If you don't develop for another 2-3 years, there is simply no way to "catch up".

Don't forget the "direct navigation" effect in two to three years. If you're holding premium stuff, you don't need to do jack, really.

[Fka200]

I bought some ASCII equivalents for some potential developments... on a serious scale. Although I don't believe the time is right, I would still do it.

[Rubber Duck]

Well, that depends whether you believe in the "explosion theory" or not. I simply don't believe 90% of Asian sites will up-sticks and move to IDN "suddenly". They have too much invested in their ASCII sites, including (but certainly not limited to) "site age".

Yes, Google are always "tweaking" but they aren't going to start loving new sites. Favouring "old sites" has been a big part of Google's SERPS changes in the last couple of years, and they ain't gonna abandon the idea just because some websites want to rebrand with different domains. In the view of Google, site age = trust = credibility = good SERPs.

Well, if the put so much store on site age then they are going to have to get down and get dirty with it as soon as possible, as like you say they will never catch up.

Google also have previously put a heavy load on whether there is a match in the URL. ASCII yields no match, so there is a big imperative to change. I personally think there will be a big change over. 90% might be conservative. It is the time frame is the big uncertainty.

I personally believe that Google will be responsive to an evolving scenario. That is what companies that grow and prosper do. Those that don't go out of business pretty damned quick.

[domainguru]

Don't forget the "direct navigation" effect in two to three years. If you're holding premium stuff, you don't need to do jack, really.

sure, "do nothing" is one approach. But the question was really whether there is any advantage to developing now rather than later, not whether to develop at all.

Also, "direct navigation" of IDNs is not a shoe-in. None of us know how much they will get and when. So by doing nothing you are taking a risk. And if your names are really that brilliant, then they are worthy of development.

Crikey, even all the ASCII players have suddenly decided to get off their fat arses and develop rather than park. :p

[mdw]

I think mini-sites are the way to go because they do indeed give you a real site so you can age your domain (don't forget to turn the bottles)
Build it out later!

'Course the original post asked about building large sites. So far not many folks motivated to do so from the sounds of it.

[domainguru]

Google also have previously put a heavy load on whether there is a match in the URL. ASCII yields no match, so there is a big imperative to change. I personally think there will be a big change over. 90% might be conservative. It is the time frame is the big uncertainty.



There is little evidence that Google heavily favours keyword domains. Certainly it is part of the mix, but all the reading and testing I have done in the last six months suggests not a big part. MSN for sure, their top 10 results are stuffed with keyword domains, they appear to care about little else, but not Google. Google is much keener on whether they think your site is an "authority" on a particular subject.

[Rubber Duck]

There is little evidence that Google heavily favours keyword domains. Certainly it is part of the mix, but all the reading and testing I have done in the last six months suggests not a big part. MSN for sure, their top 10 results are stuffed with keyword domains, they appear to care about little else, but not Google. Google is much keener on whether they think your site is an "authority" on a particular subject.

I think I have to disagree with you there.

A lot of members have been shoving up new sites will crap content and still going well up the rankings. Even bloody parking pages are making it to page one. If this is not on basis of the keywords in the Domain Name, then I am at a loss to explain it.

[domainguru]

I think I have to disagree with you there.

A lot of members have been shoving up new sites will crap content and still going well up the rankings. Even bloody parking pages are making it to page one. If this is not on basis of the keywords in the Domain Name, then I am at a loss to explain it.

Yes, we have all seen that happen. But we also see how quickly these sites tend to get chucked from the search results as well.

It appears to be a "new site in Google index" big bonus, followed by being thrown to the bottom of the pile i.e. Google likes to promote very new sites but only for a short time, then they have to really earn your SERPs.

If Google really was so keen on keyword domains, the keyword sites would maintain their rankings over a long period. For competitive keywords, it just doesn't happen.

[yanni]

... the question was really whether there is any advantage to developing now rather than later, not whether to develop at all.

You're right about that. But mainly because I'm lazy, I just felt I'd throw in my opinion :)

Also, "direct navigation" of IDNs is not a shoe-in. None of us know how much they will get and when. So by doing nothing you are taking a risk. And if your names are really that brilliant, then they are worthy of development.

Disagree here. We all have been looking at our stats this past year and some, and, at least for me, the evidence suggests that there is an uptrend, which is very promising for something that "technically" doesn't exist. We also have the ascii precedent to compare it to, and it should be a no-brainer.

I wouldn't finish in two lifetimes if I were to develop my all brilliant domains.
So, I'm only working on one, slowly.

Crikey, even all the ASCII players have suddenly decided to get off their fat arses and develop rather than park.

Too much time and money in their hands. Plus, they're playing in a well traversed field with resources readily available to them.
I'd have to search for ever to find, say, a database of Bulgarian lawyers. I wouldn't even know where to start, plus, I'm lazy...

[Rubber Duck]

Yes, we have all seen that happen. But we also see how quickly these sites tend to get chucked from the search results as well.

It appears to be a "new site in Google index" big bonus, followed by being thrown to the bottom of the pile i.e. Google likes to promote very new sites but only for a short time, then they have to really earn your SERPs.

If Google really was so keen on keyword domains, the keyword sites would maintain their rankings over a long period. For competitive keywords, it just doesn't happen.

This is very true but some of developer friends have been at this game for a while and they don't appear to have had similar experiences with their dot info's or whatever it was they used to mess about with.

[touchring]

Yes, we have all seen that happen. But we also see how quickly these sites tend to get chucked from the search results as well.

It appears to be a "new site in Google index" big bonus, followed by being thrown to the bottom of the pile i.e. Google likes to promote very new sites but only for a short time, then they have to really earn your SERPs.

If Google really was so keen on keyword domains, the keyword sites would maintain their rankings over a long period. For competitive keywords, it just doesn't happen.


We're just pawns to Google. At the end of the day:

1). They control 90% of traffic on the internet.

2). If they starts charging for 1st page ranking like many search engines are doing, a lot of websites are going to lose 80% of their traffic overnight. I know i'm going to lose 80% of my revenue overnight.

Yes, we play to Google, by creating all those SEO pages, interlinking, etc, but i think we need an alternative strategy that does not rely on Google.

Pure type-in - this is one strategy, but other than those that bought in right after the dot com bust, this is a very expensive option.

[rhys]

Luckily those of us developing for Japan can largely ignore Google. Yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[domainguru]

We're just pawns to Google. At the end of the day:

1). They control 90% of traffic on the internet.

2). If they starts charging for 1st page ranking like many search engines are doing, a lot of websites are going to lose 80% of their traffic overnight. I know i'm going to lose 80% of my revenue overnight.

Yes, we play to Google, by creating all those SEO pages, interlinking, etc, but i think we need an alternative strategy that does not rely on Google.

Pure type-in - this is one strategy, but other than those that bought in right after the dot com bust, this is a very expensive option.

Which search engines charge for 1st page ranking? In many countries in the world Google is the dominant force in search and I have never read anything that suggests they would ever think about charging for SERPs. They are a search engine, they are driven by relevancy, how could they possibly charge people to go top ten. That would destroy the core of their business. Never gonna happen :)

What you should do is have a strategy that encompasses Google but doesn't rely on it. Only a fool would ignore the largest free traffic provider on the Net.

[yanni]

1). They control 90% of traffic on the internet.



Luckily, the remaining 10% (type-in) is more potent than all the SE traffic, and technically is worth more...

[touchring]

Luckily, the remaining 10% (type-in) is more potent than all the SE traffic, and technically is worth more...



Sounds right, but before Google (i mean before Google forced everyone to perfect their search algo), direct navigation is higher - just look at the japanese, they search for everything, few bother to remember the url. Even a typo search can get to the real website.

[rhys]

Sounds right, but before Google (i mean before Google forced everyone to perfect their search algo), direct navigation is higher - just look at the japanese, they search for everything, few bother to remember the url. Even a typo search can get to the real website.

But to be clear, if I understand the statement above correctly, the fact that Japanese do not type in has about 0% to do with Google. It has everything to do with spelling in English being very confusing and URLs being difficult to remember when they aren't in Japanese. That market is no proof point for Google, completely the opposite in fact so far.

[touchring]

Luckily those of us developing for Japan can largely ignore Google. Yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think this is the best thing about idn that the big boys missed out. Google doesn't have the monopoly for most idn markets.

Maybe Frank should talk about this on his blog. ;)

[thegenius1]

Luckily those of us developing for Japan can largely ignore Google. Yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[touchring]

But to be clear, if I understand the statement above correctly, the fact that Japanese do not type in has about 0% to do with Google. It has everything to do with spelling in English being very confusing and URLs being difficult to remember when they aren't in Japanese. That market is no proof point for Google, completely the opposite in fact so far.


I know, i'm just giving an example, to show that the general evolution of search engine has reduced direct navigation gradually.

[rhys]

I know, i'm just giving an example, to show that the general evolution of search engine has reduced direct navigation gradually.

Ah, got it. I think it is probably true enough to say that if search engines were as bad as they were 10 years ago, there would be much more type-in behavior today.

[domainguru]

Yahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But why is a market dominated by Yahoo! any better than a market dominated b Google? I don't see Google as an enemy, but a friend.

[thegenius1]

But why is a market dominated by Yahoo! any better than a market dominated b Google? I don't see Google as an enemy, but a friend.

Dont mind me , Im just in love with yahoo at the mo

[rhys]

But why is a market dominated by Y! any better than a market dominated b Google? I don't see Google as an enemy, but a friend.

Google seems to care much less about relevance of the domain name to search than Y does.

Have you developed some Japanese IDNs yet? The answer will become clear to you.

[thegenius1]

tmi

[domainguru]

Google seems to care much less about relevance of the domain name to search than Y does.

Have you developed some Japanese IDNs yet? The answer will become clear to you.

It's funny because yahoo (thai) doesn't seem to care at all about the domain. We are top ten in google.co.th for our games domain but absolutely nowhere in Yahoo! Thai. I am guessing yahoo! jp is ahead of other markets in integrating IDNs into their search algos.

I'll have to develop that hair.com Japanese name and see if it does the biz in Yahoo! JP. Can anyone give me a quote for a mini-site?

[thegenius1]

It's funny because yahoo (thai) doesn't seem to care at all about the domain. We are top ten in google.co.th for our games domain but absolutely nowhere in Yahoo! Thai. I am guessing yahoo! jp is ahead of other markets in integrating IDNs into their search algos.

I'll have to develop that hair.com Japanese name and see if it does the biz in Yahoo! JP. Can anyone give me a quote for a mini-site?

pm sent

[Olney]

It's up to individuals on what the believe the merits of development are.

Putting relevant content on domains before you really develop has an advantage, this is commonly done by developers. The minisites provide monetization now, it's also quick & easy.

I put up one site that I consider to be a major development because it took me so long to do. The site is getting about 200 uniques a day at least & ranking for a very highly searched keyword.

I think you'll see a few large IDN sites by the end of the year...

[idn]

I think you'll see a few large IDN sites by the end of the year...

I'll bet that those that do will become very profitable. Please feel free to revive this thread one year from now...

[Fka200]

It's funny because yahoo (thai) doesn't seem to care at all about the domain. We are top ten in google.co.th for our games domain but absolutely nowhere in Yahoo! Thai. I am guessing yahoo! jp is ahead of other markets in integrating IDNs into their search algos.

I'll have to develop that hair.com Japanese name and see if it does the biz in Yahoo! JP. Can anyone give me a quote for a mini-site?


I am thinking it's because the Japanese get listed as unicode and the other languages are still punycode -- Google does take domain into considering since you can see it "boldened" when searching.

Yahoo on the other hand is cr@p for other languages (without SEO).