The Sinister "Walled Garden"

[Rubber Duck]

For those of you who fear that your IDNs are now worthless as a consequence of the ill-informed "Boggy Man" stories going around this forum, you might try resolving some of the following just to assure yourselves that the Internet has not secretly been split in two:


中国供应商联盟.com
中国塑料.com
中国出口商品大全.com
中国硫化机.com
中国大型活动.com
中国塑协.com
中国民航博物馆.net
中国评价.com
中国民航博物馆.net
中国塑料机械.com
中国建筑防水.com
中国典当.com
中国互联网络信息中心.cn
中国绿色电力.com
中国汽车流通网.com
中国耐火材料行业网.com
中国信息.net
中国职业资格认证网.com
中国考试.com
中国三农信息服务网.com
中国企业维权.com
中国内衣网.com
中国直销企业网.com
中国楷模网.com
中国科技资讯联盟.com
中国商铺网.com
中国烟草科学.com
中国旅游图片网.com
中国管理咨询在线.com
中国天天房网.cn
中国人才库.com
中国人才库.com
中国福利彩票3d.com
中国乡村医药.com
中国石油工程.com
中国考试网.net
中国万网.com
中国绿茶.com
中国绿茶.com

[Edwin]

Dave, from your post it looks like you've got completely the wrong end of the stick... I don't think ANYONE has suggested they will stop working outside China. The real test is will anyone IN China be able to resolve those in the near future?

In other words, what some have been wondering (note, nobody has said it WILL happen but people have said it MAY happen - very different thing) is will IDN .com domains resolve differently for people inside/outside China? And what impact such a change, if it comes, will have on potential traffic?

[bwhhisc]

In other words, what some have been wondering (note, nobody has said it WILL happen but people have said it MAY happen - very different thing) is will IDN .com domains resolve differently for people inside/outside China?

It is hard to imagine the Chinese wouldn't see the public relations disaster this would create to their image worldwide. Much less the impact it could have on their business around the globe. Compound that with the desire to showcase their cultural and economic strides during the 2008 Olympics are in Beijing. There are certainly other ways, maybe some not yet even developed to maintain the control and censorship they desire. If that fails or is unworkable, then something like this could be plausable. I think they are just shaking their fist and seeing if we are going to blink.

[Edwin]

Except that China already unilaterally blocks its citizens' access to thousands of sites, including the BBC and Wikipedia, so the idea that they don't want to upset anyone has pretty much fallen by the wayside.

So Chinese netizens find themselves surfing in the shadow of the world's most sophisticated censorship machine, which is now more menacing than ever.

There is now an estimated 30,000-strong internet police force which, with the aid of Western-provided technology, is dedicated to monitoring websites and e-mails.

On a technical level the five gateways which connect China to the global internet filter traffic coming into and going out of the country.

Keyword blocking technology - much of it provided by western companies - is used to prevent access to offending sites.

Even the country's 110,000 internet cafés are now highly regulated and state-licensed, and all are equipped with standard surveillance systems.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/4587622.stm

[Rubber Duck]

Dave, from your post it looks like you've got completely the wrong end of the stick... I don't think ANYONE has suggested they will stop working outside China. The real test is will anyone IN China be able to resolve those in the near future?

In other words, what some have been wondering (note, nobody has said it WILL happen but people have said it MAY happen - very different thing) is will IDN .com domains resolve differently for people inside/outside China? And what impact such a change, if it comes, will have on potential traffic?

Well, I didn't really think I had. I chose a whole selection of sites that are almost certainly hosted inside China. If there was a total separate Internet inside China as you suggest then, it would seem logical that we would not be able to access these sites. Are you really trying to tell me that under the new system people inside China will not be able to access Chinese sites hosted within China? That would not so much be separating the Chinese Internet from the rest of the World but more like pulling the socket out of the wall altogether!

[Edwin]

Again, you're over-reaching in interpreting what I'm posting.

If China has implemented its own system, it now has 100% control of "what points where" and it also has 30,000+ people ready to decide which way the traffic will go (see the BBC article). That's a LOT of resources to throw at the problem. So they could very easily already have determined which sites from the "outside" would be allowed to continue to resolve and which won't. Having the ability to block something is not automatically the same as blocking it.

Here's how we'll know for sure... if traffic to Chinese IDN domains that were getting useful amounts of traffic last month and before drops and stays low, that's a huge red flag that something has changed, and that the change is for the worse from a Chinese IDN domain investor working through ICANN's perspective. The exact extent and nature of the change may not become apparent until later, if at all (e.g. China is hardly likely to go out of its way to publicise exactly what the 30,000 people are doing and which sites make the cut or not).

On the other hand, if the reported falls in traffic reverse themselves and prove to be a temporary glitch, then we can all relax.

[bwhhisc]

Continuing the article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ne/4587622.stm

QUOTE: Equipped with the right know-how, some Chinese are already using more sophisticated technologies to beat the authorities at their own game. Advanced software for example allows users anonymously to redirect their internet activity through a third-party computer known as a proxy server, which is out of reach of the Chinese authorities. ENDQUOTE

Looks like it's already "game on" in China. There is also the issue of blogging that the article states has yet to be resolved by authorities. This is going to be a huge challenge however it plays out for Chinese politics and personal freedoms. As Technology has changed our world in the last 2 decades more than ever, I don't think the Chinese authorities are going to get this Genie back in the bottle very easy!

[kenne]

I remember going to China and not able to read Yahoo Mail, because of the great firewall. A grad student friend whipped out a long list of free proxies and started going through them instead.

The pain they took on both sides of censorship war...

[Rubber Duck]

Again, you're over-reaching in interpreting what I'm posting.

If China has implemented its own system, it now has 100% control of "what points where" and it also has 30,000+ people ready to decide which way the traffic will go (see the BBC article). That's a LOT of resources to throw at the problem. So they could very easily already have determined which sites from the "outside" would be allowed to continue to resolve and which won't. Having the ability to block something is not automatically the same as blocking it.

Here's how we'll know for sure... if traffic to Chinese IDN domains that were getting useful amounts of traffic last month and before drops and stays low, that's a huge red flag that something has changed, and that the change is for the worse from a Chinese IDN domain investor working through ICANN's perspective. The exact extent and nature of the change may not become apparent until later, if at all (e.g. China is hardly likely to go out of its way to publicise exactly what the 30,000 people are doing and which sites make the cut or not).

On the other hand, if the reported falls in traffic reverse themselves and prove to be a temporary glitch, then we can all relax.


No, it is you that has attempted to single handedly trash the market in Chinese IDN with an extreme interpretation of single poorly interpreted article, based upon very little background knowledge. Furthermore, you are making additional interpretations on the back of Traffic Statistics you have not had clear sight off or properly understood the nature thereof. The following from Cirleid.com might help you to get up to speed:


China's New Domain Names: Lost in Translation
Feb 28, 2006 | Inside: Internet Governance
Posted by Rebecca MacKinnon Comments | Print | Email

This morning I got a bunch of alarmist messages from friends asking about this English-language People’s Daily article titled: China adds top-level domain names. The paragraph that’s freaking people out is:

Under the new system, besides “CN”, three Chinese TLD names “CN”, “COM” and “NET” are temporarily set. It means Internet users don’t have to surf the Web via the servers under the management of the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) of the United States.

Not for the first time, it appears that the People’s Daily’s English translation is very misleading.

Here is a Chinese language story on the subject, and here is the original announcement in Chinese on the Ministry of Information Industry website. Below are the two most important sections, which I am translating/explaining in English (please post corrections in the comments section if you read Chinese and think I got anything wrong):

二、我国互联网络域名体系在顶级域名"CN"之外暂设"中国"、"公司"和"网络"3个中文顶级域名。

2. “In China’s internet domain name system, aside from the “CN” top-level domains, there will be three Chinese language top-level domains: 中国 (which means “China"), 公司 (which means “company"), AND 网络 (which means “net")."

In other words, China is NOT, I repeat NOT creating alternative .COM and .NET top-level domains that would be separate from those now administered by ICANN. (Though it is true that CN, 中国, 公司, AND 网络 will not be administered by ICANN, but by a Chinese entity.)

[touchring]

Well, i guess China is trying to leapfrog ICANN for .公司 and .网络, a very smart commercial and political move, in my opinion. The plan has been there since 2 years back, and all the lobbying for Microsoft to include idn plugin, etc, are all part of the plan to introduce 'easy to remember' and 'short' domains for chinese users.

It looks to me that ICANN has to come out with a different extension for .com and .net in Chinese. I would recommend single character .商 and .网.

Whatever it is, good domains are still good domains, be it .中国 or .公司 or .商.

[Edwin]

Dave, I don't understand why you think I'm setting out to "trash" anything. What would be the point of such a time-wasting exercise?

I am posting interpretations of what MIGHT be happening. I have been at pains to clearly indicate that these interpretations rest on a foundation that depends on certain things happening, and should be seen in that context.

As the other thread's link showed, the real "reality" seems to be closer to the fact that China is taking control (or more active control) over a Chinese extension that they see as ".com in Chinese" rather than control of .com itself. This may yet have a significant negative impact on Chinese-language IDNs, we'll have to wait and see.

At the same time, China is famous for its over-arching control over the Web as seen by its citizens - Google "great firewall of China" with quotes and you get over 200,000 articles addressing this!

Other countries, such as Japan and Russia, exert absolutely no country-level control that I've heard of over the traffic that is allowed to pass through their country. Of course, local ISPs may implement some blocking (never heard of any here, though) but by and large it's a total free-for-all.

No matter what the precise facts are behind the most recent China IDN story, it is impossible to realistically spin any change they bring, no matter how small, in a way that is "good" for Chinese IDN. At the very very best, nothing has changed, but all other interpretations are "bad" for Chinese IDN prospects.

[IDNCowboy]

In other words, China is NOT, I repeat NOT creating alternative .COM and .NET top-level domains that would be separate from those now administered by ICANN. (Though it is true that CN, 中国, 公司, AND 网络 will not be administered by ICANN, but by a Chinese entity.)
Read this quote again Dave......... (the part from you i quoted)

ICANN will not be administrating these


so if they do map onto the same ext in .com (non idnized) why would the .com .net in english equivalent be any different? It seems that China is up to something and we should see a drop in traffic on our chinese idns. (meaning all english .com's are administered by icann)

Right now alot of people don't know whats going on... Your opinion is just as good as everyone elses.... Just because you have 10,000 domains doesn't mean you are a scholar.

[touchring]

Read this quote again Dave......... (the part from you i quoted)

ICANN will not be administrating these


so if they do map onto the same ext in .com (non idnized) why would the .com .net in english equivalent be any different? It seems that China is up to something and we should see a drop in traffic on our chinese idns. (meaning all english .com's are administered by icann)

Right now alot of people don't know whats going on... Your opinion is just as good as everyone elses.... Just because you have 10,000 domains doesn't mean you are a scholar.


Well, that's how money is made - people that understand the whole situation buys the domains at cheap prices from people that do not understand, or better still, just register them off the shelf. :)

[Rubber Duck]

Well, i guess China is trying to leapfrog ICANN for .公司 and .网络, a very smart commercial and political move, in my opinion. The plan has been there since 2 years back, and all the lobbying for Microsoft to include idn plugin, etc, are all part of the plan to introduce 'easy to remember' and 'short' domains for chinese users.

It looks to me that ICANN has to come out with a different extension for .com and .net in Chinese. I would recommend single character .商 and .网.

Whatever it is, good domains are still good domains, be it .中国 or .公司 or .商.

I think you will find that deal has already been done. From a TM standpoint China got there first so Verisign doesn't have a leg to stand on.

The symbol used by Verisign is not hugely important as whatever they choose will become synomous with dot com. There might be some short-term confusion amongst poorly informed speculators, but none of the major corporates are going to migrate to 公司.

From the Chinese perspective it doesn't really matter greatly. Revenue generated by domain registration are chicken feed compared with the impact that proper implementation of IDN.IDN will have on their economy as whole. China is puttting pressure on everyone to go ahead with this. ICANN and Verisign are now in a panic that they will miss the boat. In my opinion DName will be rolled out by the end of the year.

[touchring]

I think you will find that deal has already been done. From a TM standpoint China got there first so Verisign doesn't have a leg to stand on.

The symbol used by Verisign is not hugely important as whatever they choose will become synomous with dot com. There might be some short-term confusion amongst poorly informed speculators, but none of the major corporates are going to migrate to 公司.

From the Chinese perspective it doesn't really matter greatly. Revenue generated by domain registration are chicken feed compared with the impact that proper implementation of IDN.IDN will have on their economy as whole. China is puttting pressure on everyone to go ahead with this. ICANN and Verisign are now in a panic that they will miss the boat. In my opinion DName will be rolled out by the end of the year.


IMO, there will be a market for both. But Verisign must implement that IDN.IDN within the next two years the latest to have any chance of obtaining any reasonable amount of mindshare for IDN.IDN.

[Rubber Duck]

Dave, I don't understand why you think I'm setting out to "trash" anything. What would be the point of such a time-wasting exercise?

I am posting interpretations of what MIGHT be happening. I have been at pains to clearly indicate that these interpretations rest on a foundation that depends on certain things happening, and should be seen in that context.

As the other thread's link showed, the real "reality" seems to be closer to the fact that China is taking control (or more active control) over a Chinese extension that they see as ".com in Chinese" rather than control of .com itself. This may yet have a significant negative impact on Chinese-language IDNs, we'll have to wait and see.

At the same time, China is famous for its over-arching control over the Web as seen by its citizens - Google "great firewall of China" with quotes and you get over 200,000 articles addressing this!

Other countries, such as Japan and Russia, exert absolutely no country-level control that I've heard of over the traffic that is allowed to pass through their country. Of course, local ISPs may implement some blocking (never heard of any here, though) but by and large it's a total free-for-all.

No matter what the precise facts are behind the most recent China IDN story, it is impossible to realistically spin any change they bring, no matter how small, in a way that is "good" for Chinese IDN. At the very very best, nothing has changed, but all other interpretations are "bad" for Chinese IDN prospects.


Well, I certainly wouldn't give you a job in PR!

The real news is that what I and many other thought had already been implemented actually hadn't, but it has now.

No, this is very good for IDN in general because it means that ICANN will have to get their finger out and implement IDN.IDN worldwide.

The Firewall, well nothing has changed their. It was there last week and will be there next week!

[IDNCowboy]

The symbol used by Verisign is not hugely important as whatever they choose will become synomous with dot com. There might be some short-term confusion amongst poorly informed speculators, but none of the major corporates are going to migrate to 公司.

Please quote your source. How exactly would you know the corporates aren't going to get them?

Well, I certainly wouldn't give you a job in PR!

The real news is that what I and many other thought had already been implemented actually hadn't, but it has now.

No, this is very good for IDN in general because it means that ICANN will have to get their finger out and implement IDN.IDN worldwide.

The Firewall, well nothing has changed their. It was there last week and will be there next week!
Please read the quote one last time.... Did you read the same article the rest of us read? ICANN doesn't even know what China is saying with their own native character .com's. How is this good for idn.com chinese holders? LOL ... Thought so... its the opposite case here. IDN chinese owners right now are screwed

[Rubber Duck]

Read this quote again Dave......... (the part from you i quoted)

ICANN will not be administrating these


so if they do map onto the same ext in .com (non idnized) why would the .com .net in english equivalent be any different? It seems that China is up to something and we should see a drop in traffic on our chinese idns. (meaning all english .com's are administered by icann)

Right now alot of people don't know whats going on... Your opinion is just as good as everyone elses.... Just because you have 10,000 domains doesn't mean you are a scholar.

There is no change to the mapping of dot com.

What has happened is that new extentions have been introduced that use punycode strings. I am not sure whether this has been done by introducing these into the Root or by DName mapping. I suspect that Verisign has assisted with the latter and is using PRC as a test bed. Obviously, these new extensions only work in China as no changes have been made to ICANN Root Servers.

You could not previous get dot CN by typing in Chinese characters from outside China, but you now can from inside. That really is about all that has changed. The other two extension to date have been on sale for a year or more but to my knowledge have negligible registrations. Perhaps if they actually work someone might buy them!

Well, the number of domains you hold is an indication of how long you have been doing this and how much research you have done. It also means that you are not just talking because you have discovered that you have the ability to do so!

[touchring]

Please quote your source. How exactly would you know the corporates aren't going to get them?


Please read the quote one last time.... Did you read the same article the rest of us read? ICANN doesn't even know what China is saying with their own native character .com's. How is this good for idn.com chinese holders? LOL ... Thought so... its the opposite case here. IDN chinese owners right now are screwed

My offer to bail runners out still stands. Kenne has also indicated he will help. :p

[Rubber Duck]

Please quote your source. How exactly would you know the corporates aren't going to get them?


Please read the quote one last time.... Did you read the same article the rest of us read? ICANN doesn't even know what China is saying with their own native character .com's. How is this good for idn.com chinese holders? LOL ... Thought so... its the opposite case here. IDN chinese owners right now are screwed

As Edwin has pointed out on a number of occassions, large corporates are not going to change URL without a very good reason. There is no good reason for anyone to migrate to an extension that has virtually no registrations and is surrounded by uncertainty. This is a no brainer in view.

Don't get your point at all on the second one!

[IDNCowboy]

Well, the number of domains you hold is an indication of how long you have been doing this and how much research you have done. It also means that you are not just talking because you have discovered that you have the ability to do so!
What kind of research do you do Dave? Remember when you told us about 3721.com's way to determine if a Chinese word is popular? You asked us to look at the # next to the arrow and if its a low number its worthless and if its a high number its a very popular domain...You must not have run it thru babelfish as it was saying the number of related keywords not what you told us. Newspaper didn't get much of a score and 1200 wasnt' the max score that you can get. I saw a few with a score of 1400. I can pull threads up with proof...

Also a common downfall with you is that you disagree with native speakers what an easier way to type a certain word is. I believe a native speaker has better first hand experience than you.

[Rubber Duck]

IMO, there will be a market for both. But Verisign must implement that IDN.IDN within the next two years the latest to have any chance of obtaining any reasonable amount of mindshare for IDN.IDN.

Yes and this is the primary objective of the Chinese. They are not really worried about whether dot CN outsells dot Com or Vis-Versa. They are extremely commited to forcing the roll-out of IDN.IDN. My reading is that it will all happen very quickly now if ICANN and Verisign don't trip over one another in the rush.

Hell, yes send me your lists I will have a look at them!

[touchring]

Hell, yes send me your lists I will have a look at them!


Oh no, i've a first use patent over the bailout idea. :p

You guys need not worry if you are working on a long term investment - China's market is like only 15% developed, and once it's 100% developed, it can well accommodate 2 tlds.

As for my city.com and .net, well, they are still as valuable as ever since they are reserved on the chinese end.

[Rubber Duck]

What kind of research do you do Dave? Remember when you told us about 3721.com's way to determine if a Chinese word is popular? You asked us to look at the # next to the arrow and if its a low number its worthless and if its a high number its a very popular domain...You must not have run it thru babelfish as it was saying the number of related keywords not what you told us. Newspaper didn't get much of a score and 1200 wasnt' the max score that you can get. I saw a few with a score of 1400. I can pull threads up with proof...

Also a common downfall with you is that you disagree with native speakers what an easier way to type a certain word is. I believe a native speaker has better first hand experience than you.


Well, if you did your research properly you would know that Edwin isn't a native Japanese speaker and the only person to have a total disagrreement of views with an indigenous Japanese on this forum would seem to be Edwin.

You seem to very aware of 3721.com, but prior to my comments had no knowledge of it, so if there were some inaccuracies in my assumptions, my overall comments have clearly been of use.

If any of you had taken the trouble to ask Giant on which continent the nameservers that are collecting his statistics are based, then you might have more insight into what is going on here.

The Chines speakers in this debate are Touchring, Kenne and Giant. Perhaps you should listen to what they are saying. It is generally part of Eastern Culture to only speak to a receptive audience, so you might have to listen a bit more carefully than usual, although without going beyond the bounds of social norms, I think you will find they have already expressed their views quite clearly.

[touchring]

Well, if you did your research properly you would know that Edwin isn't a native Japanese speaker and the only person to have a total disagrreement of views with an indigenous Japanese on this forum would seem to be Edwin.

You seem to very aware of 3721.com, but prior to my comments had no knowledge of it, so if there were some inaccuracies in my assumptions, my overall comments have clearly been of use.

Well if you did your research properly you would know that Edwin isn't a native japanese speaker.

If any of you had taken the trouble to ask Giant on which continent the nameservers that are collecting his statistics are based, then you might have more insight into what is going on here.

The Chines speakers in this debate are Touchring, Kenne and Giant. Perhaps you should listen to what they are saying. It is generally part of Eastern Culture to only speak to a receptive audience, so you might have to listen a bit more carefully than usual, although without going beyond the bounds of social norms, I think you will find they have already expressed their views quite clearly.


To add, please guys, i've got an office in Xiamen since 2001, do you think i do not know what i am putting my money into? I'm not doing this 'remote control' style.

The people at CNNIC are not fools.

[Rubber Duck]

Except that China already unilaterally blocks its citizens' access to thousands of sites, including the BBC and Wikipedia, so the idea that they don't want to upset anyone has pretty much fallen by the wayside.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/4587622.stm

Well, in view of some of the blatant misrepresentation by the BBC frankly I am not surprised. I have accessed BBC websites via Anonymous Proxy servers based in the PRC, that categorically state that they cannot be seen from the PRC. When I have contacted the authors of the report complaining about such inaccuracies then I have not received even a basic acknowledgement. The BBC certainly does not have a monopoly on the truth!

It is probably a good thing that Wikipedia is blocked as it is compiled of unscrutinized private contributions, the last thing we need is for it to become a field of combat in a propaganda war.

Enterprises llike Sedo cannot be seen from China because they basically just haven't gone to the trouble of ensuring they get themselves registered.

I don't think China has ever said that it will go out of its way not to upset anyone. We all know that the system there is not perfect. If we ask, however, who has done more for its people since the demise of Communist Ideology China or Russia, or where we would prefer to live, I think I would have to say China.

[IDNCowboy]

To add, please guys, i've got an office in Xiamen since 2001, do you think i do not know what i am putting my money into? I'm not doing this 'remote control' style.

The people at CNNIC are not fools.
Both articles in some shape and form have both said these domains would have no connection with icann whatsoever.

This is China... not the U.S. ......... things happen iregularly and between one day and the next is a whole seperate ballgame...

Please read before you write... I'm just pointing out to what the clarrification to the journalist said. At this stage everyone has their own opinions and it'll be some time before we see true facts presented upon ourselves. I've been doing domains for years as well and have had many successful online businesses.

[Rubber Duck]

Both articles in some shape and form have both said these domains would have no connection with icann whatsoever.

This is China... not the U.S. ......... things happen iregularly and between one day and the next is a whole seperate ballgame...

Please read before you write... I'm just pointing out to what the clarrification to the journalist said. At this stage everyone has their own opinions and it'll be some time before we see true facts presented upon ourselves. I've been doing domains for years as well and have had many successful online businesses.

Yes, but none of this is news!

[Edwin]

Seems the new announcement of "whatever" is happening took place exactly one year on from the original launch of the extensions. Reading between the PR hype, there's a lot of great information here...
http://www.i-dns.net/newsroom/news/GE050301-01.html.en

[touchring]

Both articles in some shape and form have both said these domains would have no connection with icann whatsoever.

This is China... not the U.S. ......... things happen iregularly and between one day and the next is a whole seperate ballgame...

Please read before you write... I'm just pointing out to what the clarrification to the journalist said. At this stage everyone has their own opinions and it'll be some time before we see true facts presented upon ourselves. I've been doing domains for years as well and have had many successful online businesses.


That's why some people make money in China and some do not. Applying the rules in the US on the Chinese market isn't going to work. :)

Seems the new announcement of "whatever" is happening took place exactly one year on from the original launch of the extensions. Reading between the PR hype, there's a lot of great information here...
http://www.i-dns.net/newsroom/news/GE050301-01.html.en

This is part of the Chinese mentality, people want to do things in subtle ways so as to avoid strong reactions and objections, so whenever they do something drastic, they will call it an experiment, even though it has been decided at the highest level that this MUST proceed, and the experiment is actually the real implementation.

[Rubber Duck]

Seems the new announcement of "whatever" is happening took place exactly one year on from the original launch of the extensions. Reading between the PR hype, there's a lot of great information here...
http://www.i-dns.net/newsroom/news/GE050301-01.html.en

Well, I am surprised that not everyone with interests in the market had not already read this. I must have referred to this and other similar articles on this site a couple of dozen time over the last year or so.

As I said previously, none of this is news!

The same information has also been available from CNNIC in English for much of that period.

That's why some people make money in China and some do not. Applying the rules in the US on the Chinese market isn't going to work. :)



This is part of the Chinese mentality, people want to do things in subtle ways so as to avoid strong reactions and objections, so whenever they do something drastic, they will call it an experiment, even though it has been decided at the highest level that this MUST proceed, and the experiment is actually the real implementation.

Actually, I am convince that this experiment is actually the test-bed that is required by ICANN for DName. How else could they test the theories on DName without risk to Western Democracy? I believe Verisign at least are involved with this and ICANN probaby know a lot more than they are letting on. Once this has been shown to work, ICANN will simply announce IDN.IDN. They have effectively done the public consultation at Vancouver and previous workshops. There will need to be some kind of process over approval of the Aliases, but this is probably not covered by governmental restraints on ICANN. Shouldn't take too long as the only real contention is between Versign and China, and I think Verisign will concede the Alias to get what they are really after.

What you have to remember is that IDN.com is set to blow ASCII.ccTLD out of the water. IDN.ccTLD is largely superfluous as the language used will get the Browser into the right zone without the need for ccTLD. CNNIC probably realise this and want to get some toe hold in the market before Verisign arrives with the B52s. What Verisign is reallly after is gTLDs in IDN.IDN.

[touchring]

I think i just realized that abc.cn is now is now almost redundant, at least when everyone starts using ie7.

[bwhhisc]

MORE TO CLARIFY- If you don't know who James Seng is google his name on the internet....I believe you will find he has been around at least as long as "our" experts, but seems to get better dinner invites!

http://rconversation.blogs.com/rconversation/2006/02/chinas_new_doma.html#comment-14511452

Just saw this news and find it funny because I just had dinner with Mao Wei and Prof. Qian last night (Mao is the Executive Director of CNNIC). To be exact, they have no idea of the news as they are in Perth right now. But after showing them the news and speaking to them, this is what I gathered.

The focus of the news is actually the launch of .MIL.CN, a new 2LD CNNIC is launching which requires a change in their Article. As a matter of procedure, they announced the revise Article that includes the the policy for the three Chinese TLD for .NET, .COM and .CN (网络，公司，中国). The Chinese TLDs was actually added 3 years ago in 2003. It is hardly news now.

It has been in operation for 3 years now as you can see from http://www.cnnic.net.cn/index/0B/index.htm

In practice, they did not actually use any alternative/parellel root. Instead, when someone registered a domain name like 联想.公司, what they get is 联想.公司.cn and the append of .cn is done automatically by the client resolution.

The news is just .MIL.CN.

-James Seng

[Rubber Duck]

Oh Sh*t, you mean nothing has gone and happened again today! That's twice in two days, very worrying!

[bwhhisc]

Oh Sh*t, you mean nothing has gone and happened again today! That's twice in two days, very worrying!

FURTHER UPDATE (11:30PM EST TUESDAY): This entry has been posted over at CircleID where James Seng from Singapore, who has been following these issues for some time, has weighed in. He writes:

It is not an alternative root because there is no “root” being setup. And the ISPs continue to use the same default (IANA) root that ship with BIND. In a longer comment James elaborates, copying a comment he wrote in another thread on another site, in response to somebody named Dave" END QUOTE

"someone named Dave" hmmm.....you know this guy?

[Giant]

"someone named Dave" hmmm.....you know this guy?

When I read James Seng's comment, I said to myself, this must be OUR Dave!:-)

Well, i guess China is trying to leapfrog ICANN for .公司 and .网络, a very smart commercial and political move, in my opinion. The plan has been there since 2 years back, and all the lobbying for Microsoft to include idn plugin, etc, are all part of the plan to introduce 'easy to remember' and 'short' domains for chinese users.

It looks to me that ICANN has to come out with a different extension for .com and .net in Chinese. I would recommend single character .商 and .网.

Whatever it is, good domains are still good domains, be it .中国 or .公司 or .商.

You are completely right. I would recommend single character .商 and .网 too.

No doubt, China won round one. ICANN and Verisign will win round two. All will win round 3 and 4.

[Rubber Duck]

When I read James Seng's comment, I said to myself, this must be OUR Dave!:-)



You are completely right. I would recommend single character .商 and .网 too.

No doubt, China won round one. ICANN and Verisign will win round two. All will win round 3 and 4.

James is a great guy, and a huge inspiration. Couldn't comment on whether I was the Dave he was referring to. We have had some interaction in the past, but whether he remembers me I don't know.

From an individual perspective I should really be asking them to go for 厂商, but I think it would be a real smart move for Verisign to let China do its thing and adopt for .商 and .网 as suggested. Much neater solution in my view. The sooner we can get this issue put to bed the better. With Verisign doing the branding these characters would be rapidly accepted. We could all then get obscenely rich!

[IDNCowboy]

James is a great guy, and a huge inspiration. Couldn't comment on whether I was the Dave he was referring to. We have had some interaction in the past, but whether he remembers me I don't know.

From an individual perspective I should really be asking them to go for 厂商, but I think it would be a real smart move for Verisign to let China do its thing and adopt for .商 and .网 as suggested. Much neater solution in my view. The sooner we can get this issue put to bed the better. With Verisign doing the branding these characters would be rapidly accepted. We could all then get obscenely rich!
Chinese usually like them in pairs tho ;-)

[Rubber Duck]

Chinese usually like them in pairs tho ;-)

Well I think that when they are spoken the first part of the the couplet is the dot as in DOT COM. Sounds just like a chinese couplet to me.

I would also point out that whilst Chinese Given names are generally pairs, Family names are single characters. I think the most natural combination would infact be two characters for the Keyword and One for the extension, when it is considered that dot has to be pronounced as well, but perhaps some of our Chinese panelists could advise on this.

[Giant]

Well I think that when they are spoken the first part of the the couplet is the dot as in DOT COM. Sounds just like a chinese couplet to me..
Yes, they read DOT COM together.



I would also point out that whilst Chinese Given names are generally pairs, Family names are single characters. I think the most natural combination would infact be two characters for the Keyword and One for the extension, when it is considered that dot has to be pronounced as well, but perhaps some of our Chinese panelists could advise on this.
Dave, I am surprised again, your "guess" is so accurate. I really wonder you are a Chinese or a briton, or maybe both.:-)
Yes, extention better be single, just like English Dot "Com". The more I try, the more I feel 商 and 网 would make perfect extentions.

[Rubber Duck]

Yes, they read DOT COM together.



Dave, I am surprised again, your "guess" is so accurate. I really wonder you are a Chinese or a briton, or maybe both.:-)
Yes, extention better be single, just like English Dot "Com". The more I try, the more I feel 商 and 网 would make perfect extentions.

Perhaps we should try and lobby Verisign and ICANN to adopt these extensions! If we had enough knowledgible chinese domain specualtors trying to persuade them, maybe we break the log jam here. There more I think about it, the more I believe that the existing proposals make little sense.

[touchring]

Yes, both 商 and 网 are a good alternative, it's better for them to use something different from CNNIC. That would reduce the risk of our idn.idn (as opposed to idn.com) being blocked in China.

[Rubber Duck]

Email Sent to info@verisign-grs.com

Titled : Gongsi and Wangluo


For Attention of Pat Kane:

Dear Pat,

As a Dot Com IDN speculator, notably in simplified Chinese, I and others at the our Forum
( www.idnforums.com ), have a serious vested interest in seeing the DName solution implemented and IDN.IDN being rolled out as quickly as possible. We feel that IDN.com now has some momentum, which frankly our Forum has significantly contributed to.

We are obviously very concerned about the potential conflict over “.公司” (i.e. “.gongsi” which means “company” in Chinese) and/or “.网络” (i.e. “.wangluo” which means “networking”).

The consensus amongst the Chinese IDNers is that this fight is pointless, as neither of these Symbols would provide the most commercially viable Alias or Branding to dot Com. As between us we have thousands of such domains between us, we feel we have a vested interest in making sure you get it RIGHT.

It is our view that although two Symbol words will maximixe value in terms of Keywords, that maximumization of the value of the Extension ( the actual dot com ) would be best acheived, using a single character. The dot effectively makes the first part of the couplets which the Chinese are famous for, so having two characters after the dot actually makes them cumbersome rather than graceful. The Chinese also use single characters for family names, so we feel that a single character for the extension will seem very natural.

The general consensus is that Shang1 商 or Wang3 网 would actually provide a much more potent basis for your branding of the extension.

Beyond our interest in you getting it right, we have a further interest in you getting it done, as soon as practicable, as does the rest of the Internet Community in Asia.

Would appreciate it if you could give this matter some serious consideration, and feed back would be a bonus.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[drbiohealth]

Dave, Pat's email address is this: pkane@verisign.com


Email Sent to info@verisign-grs.com

Titled : Gongsi and Wangluo


For Attention of Pat Kane:

Dear Pat,

As a Dot Com IDN speculator, notably in simplified Chinese, I and others at the our Forum
( www.idnforums.com ), have a serious vested interest in seeing the DName solution implemented and IDN.IDN being rolled out as quickly as possible. We feel that IDN.com now has some momentum, which frankly our Forum has significantly contributed to.

We are obviously very concerned about the potential conflict over “.公司” (i.e. “.gongsi” which means “company” in Chinese) and/or “.网络” (i.e. “.wangluo” which means “networking”).

The consensus amongst the Chinese IDNers is that this fight is pointless, as neither of these Symbols would provide the most commercially viable Alias or Branding to dot Com. As between us we have thousands of such domains between us, we feel we have a vested interest in making sure you get it RIGHT.

It is our view that although two Symbol words will maximixe value in terms of Keywords, that maximumization of the value of the Extension ( the actual dot com ) would be best acheived, using a single character. The dot effectively makes the first part of the couplets which the Chinese are famous for, so having two characters after the dot actually makes them cumbersome rather than graceful. The Chinese also use single characters for family names, so we feel that a single character for the extension will seem very natural.

The general consensus is that Shang1 商 or Wang3 网 would actually provide a much more potent basis for your branding of the extension.

Beyond our interest in you getting it right, we have a further interest in you getting it done, as soon as practicable, as does the rest of the Internet Community in Asia.

Would appreciate it if you could give this matter some serious consideration, and feed back would be a bonus.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[kenne]

I still think the ".网" is too similar to ".网络”.

And ".商" would be unfair to oversea chinese companies (taiwanese,
singaporean, etc. ). Because if "yahoo.com" now becomes "yahoo.商" which is pretty weird.
while in order to have "yahoo.公司", they have to reg yahoo.com.cn, even though they don't actually do business in China.
Yahoo may not be the best example, but you get the drift.

Sadly, someone is going to lose. Personally I prefer ".商" too. but mapping ".公司" to ".com.cn", ".网络" to ".net.cn" is still bad.

[touchring]

but mapping ".公司" to ".com.cn", ".网络" to ".net.cn" is still bad.

fyi, ".公司" is distinct from .com.cn. They are 2 separate tlds. :)

[kenne]

fyi, ".公司" is distinct from .com.cn. They are 2 separate tlds. :)


Oh. Anyone knows what is it?

If it's still mapped under .cn, then the same problem facing the 100M oversea chinese.

[Drewbert]

>As a Dot Com IDN speculator

Jesus. All Verisign will do is go out of their way to figure out how to charge you more.

Which they can do now, of course, thanks to ICANN.

You trying to get the cost of idn.idn pushed sky high?

Shut your trap and let the COUNTRIES apply the pressure.

What do you want , another sitefinder debacle?

[Rubber Duck]

Dave, Pat's email address is this: pkane@verisign.com

Thanks, I have had confirmation that it has been forwarded to him and one or two other destinations as well.

[Drewbert]

Sigh.

Domain name speculators are the child molesters of the domain industry.

Verisign don't want to have anything to do with you, apart from figuring out how to charge you more (sitefinder, drop auctions etc). THey might talk to you but they won't hold hands with you in public.

ICANN's most powerful constituency is the IP crowd. If you stood up in an ICANN meeting and proudly announced you were a domain name speculator, you wouldn't make it out the door alive.

So STFU and let the ccNSO ad GAC handle this, or infiltrate the ccNSO UNDER DISGUISE.

[Rubber Duck]

I still think the ".网" is too similar to ".网络”.

And ".商" would be unfair to oversea chinese companies (taiwanese,
singaporean, etc. ). Because if "yahoo.com" now becomes "yahoo.商" which is pretty weird.
while in order to have "yahoo.公司", they have to reg yahoo.com.cn, even though they don't actually do business in China.
Yahoo may not be the best example, but you get the drift.

Sadly, someone is going to lose. Personally I prefer ".商" too. but mapping ".公司" to ".com.cn", ".网络" to ".net.cn" is still bad.

DName is quite capable of serviing up another manifestation of dot for those who want it represented in Traditional Chinese. As long the chosen characters are not reserved for another TLD anything goes as long as the registry wants it.

[idnowner]

Sigh.

Domain name speculators are the child molesters of the domain industry.

Verisign don't want to have anything to do with you, apart from figuring out how to charge you more (sitefinder, drop auctions etc). THey might talk to you but they won't hold hands with you in public.

ICANN's most powerful constituency is the IP crowd. If you stood up in an ICANN meeting and proudly announced you were a domain name speculator, you wouldn't make it out the door alive.

So STFU and let the ccNSO ad GAC handle this, or infiltrate the ccNSO UNDER DISGUISE.

Domain speculators are the source of hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for ICANN, registrars, the government (taxes), attorneys, arbitration providers, acquisition companies, PPC business/search engines, advertisers, etc.

[Rubber Duck]

>As a Dot Com IDN speculator

Jesus. All Verisign will do is go out of their way to figure out how to charge you more.

Which they can do now, of course, thanks to ICANN.

You trying to get the cost of idn.idn pushed sky high?

Shut your trap and let the COUNTRIES apply the pressure.

What do you want , another sitefinder debacle?

As IDN are an integral part of dot com registry, it is difficult to see how they could have a separate charge rate. If they did, it is likely that their representatives in the Far East would end up on the next flight home!

Domain speculators are the source of hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for ICANN, registrars, the government (taxes), attorneys, arbitration providers, acquisition companies, PPC business/search engines, advertisers, etc.

Yes, and I think it is pretty much an accepted fact that any registry that doesn't get speculated never flies! Dot Biz shut out the speculators with a draconian set of rules, so what happened it fell flat on its face and daren't even consider enforcing any of the caveats it imposed.

[Rubber Duck]

Bumped in Regard to "Verisign in Pact with CNNIC"