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Rubber Duck
10th August 2007, 12:25 PM
How can anyone reconcile these? Anyone? :confused:

China's Misguided 3G Mobile Strategy

.....With the largest mobile user base in the world, China is in a perfect position to be the mobile application laboratory for Asia, if not the world.

While many of China's mobile phone users are low-revenue customers content with basic services, there is an increasingly affluent, mobile and internet-addicted youth generation already pushing the current services to the limit. Mobile internet access could have a much broader impact in China than PC-based access has ever had.

China could exploit this potential by swallowing its pride, accepting a proven global 3G standard and ordering mobile operators to open their networks and support third-party IP-based services. That could spur real innovation and make this the golden age of mobile services in China.

But as long as the state-owned enterprise mentality and top-down technical policy making prevail, that golden age will remain elusive. Instead of being the innovation leader it should be, China will remain the world's largest mobile telephony backwater and 500 million mobile phone users will be left treading water....


http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/aug2007/gb2007088_244703.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_global+business


Japan, China, Korea to Jointly Develop 4G Phones
31st May , 2004

Japan, China and Korea have agreed to jointly develop communications and other technologies for fourth-generation cellular phones, which are expected to come into commercial use around 2010, sources close to the matter said on April 3.

The agreement is aimed at having the three countries adopt a unified communications protocol. Together, they account for about 30% of all cell phone users around the world, so the protocol could eventually become the global standard.....

http://www.4g.co.uk/PR2004/May2004/2023.htm

Needless to say comments left got the Schartz treatment!

jacksonm
10th August 2007, 12:36 PM
How can anyone reconcile these? Anyone? :confused:

China's Misguided 3G Mobile Strategy

.....With the largest mobile user base in the world, China is in a perfect position to be the mobile application laboratory for Asia, if not the world.

While many of China's mobile phone users are low-revenue customers content with basic services, there is an increasingly affluent, mobile and internet-addicted youth generation already pushing the current services to the limit. Mobile internet access could have a much broader impact in China than PC-based access has ever had.

China could exploit this potential by swallowing its pride, accepting a proven global 3G standard and ordering mobile operators to open their networks and support third-party IP-based services. That could spur real innovation and make this the golden age of mobile services in China.

But as long as the state-owned enterprise mentality and top-down technical policy making prevail, that golden age will remain elusive. Instead of being the innovation leader it should be, China will remain the world's largest mobile telephony backwater and 500 million mobile phone users will be left treading water....



China has been taken before the WTO before for (effectively) disallowing products which implement global standards (802.11 wireless networking standardized by IEEE) to be sold inside the country and trying to replace them with products which implement and support Chinese-only standards. I don't know if China is taking the lead from Microsoft or if Microsoft is taking the lead from China, but they both behave the same way wrt trying to push their own standards and ignoring international standards which are already in widespread use...

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Rubber Duck
10th August 2007, 12:56 PM
China has been taken before the WTO before for (effectively) disallowing products which implement global standards (802.11 wireless networking standardized by IEEE) to be sold inside the country and trying to replace them with products which implement and support Chinese-only standards. I don't know if China is taking the lead from Microsoft or if Microsoft is taking the lead from China, but they both behave the same way wrt trying to push their own standards and ignoring international standards which are already in widespread use...

.

This is a difficult area to legislate on. China is perfectly entitled to licence its own telecoms companies, and they are perfectly entitled to chose which technology they implement for their networks.

The point here, however, is that whilst Business Week is living in the dark ages, China is collaborating with its neighbours to leap frog US technology and establish new globals standards in the telecoms markets that will make 3G look like a clockwork soldier.

Both their and your arguments are undermined by the fact that Apple didn't implement 3G in the first offering of their iPhone, which by any standards is a prime example of built in obscelesence.

jacksonm
10th August 2007, 01:01 PM
Both their and your arguments are undermined by the fact that Apple didn't implement 3G in the first offering of their iPhone, which by any standards is a prime example of built in obscelesence.

Heh! 3G is not big in the US, it's mainly the rest of the world. Apple would have had to incur x number of dollars cost to put in a feature which couldn't be used by over 50% of the users (and that is conservative %). Besides, the iPhone will never be more than a small niche player. I wouldn't use it as any shining example of the market leading phone.

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Rubber Duck
10th August 2007, 01:20 PM
Heh! 3G is not big in the US, it's mainly the rest of the world. Apple would have had to incur x number of dollars cost to put in a feature which couldn't be used by over 50% of the users (and that is conservative %). Besides, the iPhone will never be more than a small niche player. I wouldn't use it as any shining example of the market leading phone.

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So characteristically the US is trying to force standards on China to shift product when it hasn't really even adopted the troublesome technology itself.

To put this into some kind of perspective, within one product development cycle China, Korea and Japan should have mobile data access rates 50 times greater than the average landline broadband connection in the US today! WTF would they do with 3G?

Don't throw out your existing phones, they will be curiousities within 5 years.

jacksonm
10th August 2007, 02:09 PM
So characteristically the US is trying to force standards on China to shift product when it hasn't really even adopted the troublesome technology itself.

To put this into some kind of perspective, within one product development cycle China, Korea and Japan should have mobile data access rates 50 times greater than the average landline broadband connection in the US today! WTF would they do with 3G?

Don't throw out your existing phones, they will be curiousities within 5 years.

It has adopted 3G, but you have to remember that mobile networks in general only cover about 10% of the land mass in the US. This is because the US is extremely underpopulated in terms of average people per square km/mile/whatever, compared to nearly any european or asian country. Operators in the US are always claiming that they provide 90% coverage - what they mean is that they provide 90% coverage over that 10% of land mass where there actually are mobile networks... There are still many places in the US where the only choice you have to get on the internet is to use a dial-up modem!!!

Speaking of fast data rate phones, I'd like to have one of those! I have HSDPA now, and it seems to get about 1MB/s... Still faster than most ADSL connections in the states.

RE old phones, I have an entire drawer full of curiosities dating back 12 years now. I don't know why I keep them... I've never had one that I used for more than 2 years.

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Rubber Duck
10th August 2007, 02:29 PM
Yeah, especially hang on to those Motorola's. They will be as cherished as the BSA Bantum's anytime soon. Let's just hope that that the Chinese can be bothered to print the instruction booklets in English.

blastfromthepast
10th August 2007, 03:20 PM
sold inside the country and trying to replace them with products which implement and support Chinese-only standards. I don't know if China is taking the lead from Microsoft or if Microsoft is taking the lead from China

Actually they are taking the lead from Japan, which has cell phones that don't work in any other country due to exclusive standards.

touchring
10th August 2007, 06:09 PM
Actually they are taking the lead from Japan, which has cell phones that don't work in any other country due to exclusive standards.


Every country tries to do their own standards, but the difference with Japan is that China is the biggest mobile phone market, and they supply wireless infrastructure to like the other one third of the world like India, Africa, and many Asian countries. If it takes to lower their price, barter trade, or provide the technology free just to gain marketshare, they will do it.

The chinese companies are swarming all over the place. Even in Singapore, there are numerous new unknown companies with lots of money from unknown sources and shareholders buying over commercial buildings, land, and setting up all sorts of businesses.

And unlike japanese that come as employees of structured organizations, the chinese come at different levels, from big corp bosses, to the construction worker, to the working woman, to the restaurant owner, to students, to "bureaucrats" that also run their private businesses to suspicious businessmen funded with money from unspeakable sources, so on.

Well, swarming is not some unknown phenomenon here, even this, an american forum is being swamped. :)

jacksonm
10th August 2007, 06:15 PM
Well, swarming is not some unknown phenomenon here, even this, an american forum is being swamped. :)

Since when is this an "american" forum? There are just as many arabs and chinese here as there are americans...

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touchring
10th August 2007, 06:49 PM
Since when is this an "american" forum? There are just as many arabs and chinese here as there are americans...

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Olney's american isn't he?

jacksonm
10th August 2007, 07:06 PM
Olney's american isn't he?

I guess he's lived in Japan for most of his adult life...

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xxbossmanxx
10th August 2007, 07:07 PM
There are still many places in the US where the only choice you have to get on the internet is to use a dial-up modem!!!


Not true, In Alaska I surf faster than my cable modem did on a dish. high speed is everywhere.

Drewbert
10th August 2007, 07:08 PM
Maybe China wants to use a system that one of these can't be easily plugged into?

http://www.gsnmagazine.com/march_07/statefundsmex_tap.html

Rubber Duck
10th August 2007, 07:10 PM
Not true, In Alaska I surf faster than my cable modem did on a dish. high speed is everywhere.

Yes, but it is all relative. Japan is typically up around 60 Megabits, and the French now have 100 Megabits in Paris. The average broadband speed in US is 2 Megabits. If you count dial-up, well you get my point!

xxbossmanxx
10th August 2007, 07:21 PM
The US has led the way with most of todays modern systems. We started out with an infrastructure that straps us tight to the 20th century. Alot of EU countries simply waited till it was figured out then implemented their technology on newer infrastructures.

Although many countries may have better systems it is partly due to our hard work, trial and error and cash spent.

It isnt easy changing 10 millon miles of cabling.

I just think it's funny how people talk about how much better setup these places are than the usa when its a blatant rip off. Half the world is running cracked windows thanx to the usa.

jacksonm
10th August 2007, 07:23 PM
Not true, In Alaska I surf faster than my cable modem did on a dish. high speed is everywhere.

You throw Alaska out there like it's the wilderness, but I bet you're in or near a big city. 99% of Alaska's area doesn't have high speed net, I guarantee you. Try Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, etc...

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xxbossmanxx
10th August 2007, 07:25 PM
Yes Alaska is the wilderness. It's bigger than all of those states you listed combined. Since when does a sat dish need to be near a big city.

Shows here that 100% of alaska all the way into the arctic circle has high speed. You still stuck in 1997?

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/06-27-2006/0004387839&EDATE=

http://www.im4poker.com/77.jpg

jacksonm
10th August 2007, 08:28 PM
Yes Alaska is the wilderness. It's bigger than all of those states you listed combined. Since when does a sat dish need to be near a big city.

Shows here that 100% of alaska all the way into the arctic circle has high speed. You still stuck in 1997?


OK, it says they got 200k subscribers, which I presume is mostly boats. You are the first person I have ever heard of who actually has satellite internet although it's been around for over a decade... I presume most of it is boats. You still need a satellite modem to send data out (very slow, high latency).

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rhys
11th August 2007, 04:43 AM
The US has led the way with most of todays modern systems. We started out with an infrastructure that straps us tight to the 20th century. Alot of EU countries simply waited till it was figured out then implemented their technology on newer infrastructures.

Although many countries may have better systems it is partly due to our hard work, trial and error and cash spent.

It isnt easy changing 10 millon miles of cabling.

I just think it's funny how people talk about how much better setup these places are than the usa when its a blatant rip off. Half the world is running cracked windows thanx to the usa.

We may have been the first and we may have led the space (think Netscape), it doesn't make it any less true that US broadband is one of the slowest among developed countries.

xxbossmanxx
11th August 2007, 06:05 AM
We are like an old house with old wiring, hard to upgrade. alot of EU countries got on the wagon later with newer equipment and infrastructure from day 1 but it was timing luck not forward thinking.

We are huge producers of how the world works but the rest of the world just takes our stuff and lessons learned and upgrades it. I remember growing up the joke was that japan didnt invent anything they simply took all of our stuff and made it better.

Rubber Duck
11th August 2007, 07:09 AM
We are like an old house with old wiring, hard to upgrade. alot of EU countries got on the wagon later with newer equipment and infrastructure from day 1 but it was timing luck not forward thinking.

We are huge producers of how the world works but the rest of the world just takes our stuff and lessons learned and upgrades it. I remember growing up the joke was that japan didnt invent anything they simply took all of our stuff and made it better.

Yes, the Internet was created in the US, but with a lot of input from places like Britain. We invented radio, television, radar, telephones, antibiotics and a whole load more stuff that you could not shake a stick at.

I am not sure how much of a lead you really ever had with broadband, if you compare it with say the EU or Japan, but yes it is older. However, this wiring excuse is a bit lame. In the UK most people get their broadband down their phone line. Speeds up to 8 Megabits. The average speed of broadband in the US is only 2 Megabits. Huge numbers are still dialling up.

As far as Mobile is concerned, Europe is a pretty big place too. There is hardly anywhere outside mountain ranges that you cannot get a connection, even amongst the accession countries. Europe was always ahead of the US, although it has been overtaken by the far east.

Anyway you either sit on your arses moaning that the rest of field has got better trainers or you get out there and run your hearts out. Nobody else gives a shit whether you finish the course or not!

jacksonm
11th August 2007, 08:37 AM
Both their and your arguments are undermined by the fact that Apple didn't implement 3G in the first offering of their iPhone, which by any standards is a prime example of built in obscelesence.

The chinese probably won't put 3G into their iPhone, either! Not since they got their own high-speed wireless data standard and all.

Chinese Pirates Copy iPhone, Make Improvements (http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/08/10/1236207.shtml)

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Rubber Duck
11th August 2007, 08:45 AM
The chinese probably won't put 3G into their iPhone, either! Not since they got their own high-speed wireless data standard and all.

Chinese Pirates Copy iPhone, Make Improvements (http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/08/10/1236207.shtml)

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It much depends on who was ripping off who.

Apple must have bought in much of the technology from the Far East, where "iPhone Clones" were circulating even before Jobs announced the iPhone, let alone built one.

The fact that the iPhone doesn't have 3G technology suggests that the basic telephonics were developed where 3G doesn't count for anything. In a word, China!

touchring
11th August 2007, 09:17 AM
We are like an old house with old wiring, hard to upgrade. alot of EU countries got on the wagon later with newer equipment and infrastructure from day 1 but it was timing luck not forward thinking.

We are huge producers of how the world works but the rest of the world just takes our stuff and lessons learned and upgrades it. I remember growing up the joke was that japan didnt invent anything they simply took all of our stuff and made it better.


I think the world works this way, knowledge is shared and improved whoever invents it.

China invented most basic modern day weaponary - gun powder, cannon, rockets, land mines, and guns but it is the Europeans that made it longer ranged and more accurate - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon. In the end, the British won the opium war because of "improved weaponary". ;)

If you go through the list of chinese inventions, it was like the modern world was invented in china:

COMPASS (2nd century BC - 2nd century AD)
GUNPOWDER (9th Century)
KITE (2,500 to 3,000 years ago)
PAPER (AD 105)
SILK (4,000 years ago)
WATERPROOF UMBRELLA
Stern-mounted rudder (202 BC-220 AD)
Fishing reel (202 BC-220 AD)
Wheelbarrow (first century BC)
Acupuncture (202 BC-220 AD)
Block printing (8th Century)
Mechanical clocks (8th Century)
Small pox vaccine (10th century)
Movable type printing machines (10th century)
Thread spinning wheel (10th century)
Paper currency (800 BC)
Deep drilling for gas (100 BC)
Fireworks (seventeenth century BC)
Flame thrower (tenth century BC)
Parachute (second century BC)
Cast Iron (fourth century BC)
Steel (second century BC)
Horse collar (Third Century BC.)
Metal Stirrup for horses (third century AD)
Crossbow (seventh century BC)
Guns (1250 AD)
Iron plows (third century BC)
Seismoscope (132 A.D)
Rockets (first century A.D.)
Chain Pump (first century AD)
Agriculture/row cultivation and intensive hoeing
Suspension Bridge (A.D. 300)
Tea (2737 B.C)
Spaghetti (5,000 B.C)
Blast Furnace
Anesthetic (3rd century)
Hot-air Balloons (second century BC.)
Circulation of the blood
The segmental arch bridge (seventh century AD.)
Drive - Belt (first century BC)
Matches (577 AD)
A Refined Value of Pi (fifth century AD - 'accurate' value of pi to ten decimal places)
Pascal Triangle (1000s AD)
Using algebra in geometry (third century AD)
Credit banking system
Mirror
Toilet paper
Wine
Chopsticks

Another source: http://www.computersmiths.com/chineseinvention/westdebt.htm

Agricultural

* Row Cultivation of crops and intensive hoeing
* The Iron Plow
* Efficient Horse Harness - trace; collar
* The Rotary Winnowing Fan
* The multi-tube ('modern') seed drill

Astronomy & Cartography

* Recognition of sunspots as solar phenomena
* Quantitative cartography
* Discovery of the Solar Wind
* The Mercator map-projection
* (Mounted) Equatorial astronomical instruments

Engineering

* Spouting bowls and standing waves
* Cast iron
* The double-acting piston bellows: air, liquid
* The Crank handle
* The 'Cardan suspension', or gimbals
* Manufacture of steel from cast iron
* Deep drilling for natural gas
* The belt drive (or driving-belt)
* Water Power
* The chain pump
* The Suspension Bridge
* The first cybernetic machine
* Essentials of the steam engine
* 'Magic Mirrors'
* The 'Siemens' steel process
* The segmental arch bridge
* The chain-drive
* Underwater salvage operations

Domestic & Industrial Technology

* Lacquer: the first plastic
* Strong beer (sake)
* Petroleum and natural gas as fuel
* Paper
* The Wheelbarrow
* Sliding Calipers
* The magic lantern
* The fishing reel
* The Stirrup
* Porcelain
* Biological pest control
* The umbrella
* Matches
* Chess
* Brandy and whisky
* The mechanical clock
* Printing - block printing; movable type
* Playing-cards
* Paper money
* 'Permanent' lamps
* The spinning-wheel

Medicine & Health

* Circulation of the blood
* Circadian rhythms in the human body
* The science of endocrinology
* Deficiency diseases
* Diabetes discovered by urine analysis
* Use of thyroid hormone
* Immunology - inoculation against smallpox

Mathematics

* The decimal system
* A place for 0
* Negative numbers
* Extraction of higher roots and solutions of higher numerical equations
* Decimal fractions
* Using algebra in geometry
* A refined value of pi
* 'Pascal's' triangle of binomial coefficients

Magnetism

* The first compass
* Dial and pointer devices
* Magnetic declination of the Earth's magnetic field
* Magnetic remanence and induction

The Physical Sciences

* Geobotanical prospecting
* The First Law of Motion
* The hexagonal structure of snowflakes
* The seismograph
* Spontaneous combustion
* 'Modern' geology
* Phosphorescent paint

Transport & Exploration

* The kite
* Manned flight with kites
* The first relief maps
* The first contour transport canal
* The parachute
* Miniature hot-air balloons
* The rudder
* Masts and sailing: Batten sails - staggered masts; Multiple masts - Fore and aft rigs; Leeboards; Watertight compartments in ships
* The helicopter rotor and the propeller
* The paddlewheel boat
* Land sailing
* The canal pound-lock

Sound & Music

* The large tuned bell
* Tuned drums
* Hermetically sealed research laboratories
* The first understanding of musical timbre
* Equal temperament in music

Warfare

* Chemical warfare: poison gas, smoke bombs and tear gas
* The crossbow
* Gunpowder
* The flame-thrower
* Flares and fireworks
* Soft bombs and grenades
* Metal-cased bombs
* Land mines
* Sea mines
* The rocket
* Mutli-staged rockets
* Guns, cannons, and mortars - fire lance; true gun

Rubber Duck
11th August 2007, 09:56 AM
I think the world works this way, knowledge is shared and improved whoever invents it.

China invented most basic modern day weaponary - gun powder, cannon, rockets, land mines, and guns but it is the Europeans that made it longer ranged and more accurate - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon. In the end, the British won the opium war because of "improved weaponary". ;)

Yes, probably wouldn't have done the Chinese much good to bitch that the British had stolen their ideas, not they would have anyway!

xxbossmanxx
11th August 2007, 03:52 PM
Cool thread. Anyway RD, most of our phone lines can run those speeds but the FCC has HUGE limits set. The FCC has slowed progress in many areas of data movement here.

touchring
11th August 2007, 03:57 PM
Yes, probably wouldn't have done the Chinese much good to bitch that the British had stolen their ideas, not they would have anyway!


The chinese are not people that live in the past, they only care about the present and the future. Look a the way Beijing is demolishing those centuries old houses to make way for new buildings.

touchring
19th August 2007, 10:04 PM
Just watched a series of 'Where did it come from' clips made by History Channel on Youtube. Basically, the entire modern warfare, gun powder, guns, canons, rockets, land mines, chemical warfare all were invented in China from the 10th to 13th century.

I've never seen such a doc in chinese. Chinese docs like to talk about culture and scenaries - boring stuff. ;)

Seems that the Americans are more interested in ancient Chinese weaponary than the chinese themselves! :o

clip 1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=0bpOzW7gihw&mode=related&search=
clip 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=H8QIFvW4d60&mode=related&search=
clip 3: http://youtube.com/watch?v=eZTJrs3_0b4&mode=related&search=
clip 4: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZvK6Yb3MGVk&mode=related&search=
clip 5: http://youtube.com/watch?v=OS50_Cd9vog&mode=related&search=

xxbossmanxx
19th August 2007, 10:30 PM
Anybody remember Jamse burke and his show "connections". Good stuff.

blastfromthepast
20th August 2007, 12:17 AM
What a blast from the past.