IDN Status Report released

[Rubber Duck]

http://icann.org/announcements/announcement-28oct07.htm

[bwhhisc]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
Step # 9 on graph is "deployment" of IDNs.

Sure would be nice to have prefaced that paragraph with mention that IDNs are working and in use today with .com, .net,.jp, .cn etc.

[IDNCowboy]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
Step # 9 on graph is "deployment" of IDNs.

Sure would be nice to have prefaced that paragraph with mention that IDNs are working and in use today with .com, .net,.jp, .cn etc.
no you stand incorrect

it is deployment of IDN tlds..

.com in japanese etc which currently does not exist

[bwhhisc]

no you stand incorrect
it is deployment of IDN tlds..
.com in japanese etc which currently does not exist

I realize that...my point is that it does NOT recognize that idn.com, idn.net etc. exist today.
As long as people are under the impression that it is all still a big experiment they will
continue to wait for the green light that the system is a "go".

ICANN would serve themselves better by stating that idn.com, idn.cc etc. are live and in use today
and that they are working to also bring idn.idn into the DNS system at this time.

[IDNCowboy]

I realize that...my point is that it does NOT recognize that idn.com, idn.net etc. exist today.
As long as people are under the impression that it is all still a big experiment they will
continue to wait for the green light that the system is a "go".

ICANN would serve themselves better by stating that idn.com, idn.cc etc. are live and in use today
and that they are working to also bring idn.idn into the DNS system at this time.
they are only testing idn tlds - t hey aren't doing mapping policy - it would come later however it should have been put on the chart - "tolerance w/ existing idn .com etc"

[Fka200]

I realize that...my point is that it does NOT recognize that idn.com, idn.net etc. exist today.
As long as people are under the impression that it is all still a big experiment they will
continue to wait for the green light that the system is a "go".

ICANN would serve themselves better by stating that idn.com, idn.cc etc. are live and in use today
and that they are working to also bring idn.idn into the DNS system at this time.


They are more concerned with IDN TLDS than the current .com/.net tlds.

[touchring]

They are more concerned with IDN TLDS than the current .com/.net tlds.


Probably what any commercial organization will do, promote what you intend to launch!!! :o

[IDNCowboy]

They are more concerned with IDN TLDS than the current .com/.net tlds.
r.i.p. idn .com

[Fka200]

r.i.p. idn .com


.net/.biz/.info.

Would love for Tina Dam to explain things a bit further to see what's going on in the meetings that say CLOSED.

[bwhhisc]

Probably what any commercial organization will do, promote what you intend to launch!!! :o

Well I hope they have consulted Verisign on all this.

After all, Verisign has a history of holding its ground...check this out from a few years ago.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/02/29/verisign_calls_icann_bluff/

[Fka200]

They are definitely agressive about launching IDN TLDs in gTLD + ccTLD. If they put in this much effort to let everyone know IDNs already exist in .com/.net, things might have unrolled differently (I was going to ask why they don't acknowledge existence of IDNs in .com/.net, but it didn't fit with the program).

[bwhhisc]

r.i.p. idn .com

Not so fast...Verisign isn't going to roll over on this. And the local registries want their bit of the action too.
And ICANN should try to make sure everyone keeps a similar stake in the domains space as it is today with .com, .jp, .cn etc.
only with their negotiated versions of .idn.

They are definitely agressive about launching IDN TLDs in gTLD + ccTLD. If they put in this much effort to let everyone know IDNs already exist in .com/.net, things might have unrolled differently.

People are going to figure it out...the question is if idn.com becomes idn.idn and how that happens.
I would not be surprised at all to see Verisign rear their head very soon.

[Fka200]

Not so fast...Verisign isn't going to roll over on this. And the local registries want their bit of the action too.



People are going to figure it out...the question is if idn.com becomes idn.idn and how that happens. I would not be surprised to see Verisign make their move very soon.

Well not exactly RIP IDN.COM/NET/BIZ/ETC. It will SURELY exist. It's just the way they want idn.idn to exist is fu*kin ludacris. Co-existence is what they envision.

I can say the IDN segment of the presentation was the one with the most questions and lasted 45minutes (in 1.5 hours meeting) --> but it did have the most info.

[IDNCowboy]

Not so fast...Verisign isn't going to roll over on this. And the local registries want their bit of the action too.



People are going to figure it out...the question is if idn.com becomes idn.idn and how that happens. I would not be surprised to see Verisign make their move very soon.
local registries would rather have .idn cause they make money on all the new regs instead of idn.com which is now slow.

[Steve Clarke]

It would be nice to hear from a Verisign official, in regards to the concerns of the members of this forum.....

Anyone looking in?

[Fka200]

People are going to figure it out...the question is if idn.com becomes idn.idn


Supposedly there is no question. It seems like they already decided.

[bwhhisc]

Supposedly there is no question. It seems like they already decided.

Yes, so it seems...but we have yet to hear from Verisign directly.
Maybe it is just a given that they will be protected on the .com (and .com/idn) namespace.

Verisign put forth this proposal in December 2005 on how the idn space should work.
While lots of other proposals are skirting around, be interested to see what Verisign sees as the best current solution:

http://www.icann.org/announcements/proposal-dname-equivalence-mapping-tld-12dec05.pdf

[Fka200]

Yes, so it seems...but we have yet to hear from Verisign directly.
Maybe it is just a given that they will be protected on the .com (and .com/idn) namespace.

Verisign put forth this proposal in December 2005 on how the idn space should work:

http://www.icann.org/announcements/proposal-dname-equivalence-mapping-tld-12dec05.pdf

What does Verisign have to do with it? It will be a new tld. It doesn't seem as if they will be using transliterations and such so it won't confuse users (that was one point on their list-> the new tlds should not be confused with current tlds). They were also talking about which organization within a country will get rights to get the registrations for the IDN.IDN(ccTLD) and such.

[bwhhisc]

What does Verisign have to do with it? It will be a new tld. It doesn't seem as if they will be using transliterations and such so it won't confuse users (that was one point on their list-> the new tlds should not be confused with current tlds).

Verisign manages the .com space and will mostly control what ever or however this "new" tld is put into the DNS.
I am certain they will not be giving up their dominant postion or brand with idns. Verbage that has come forward
in the last weeks makes it clear that there can be nothing "strikingly or confusingly" similar to the .com that is not
going to be controlled by Verisign.

[IDNCowboy]

What is the exact wording that says they will be new tlds?

[Fka200]

Verisign manages the .com space and will mostly control what ever or however this "new" tld is created.
I am certain they will not be giving up their dominant postion or brand with idns. Verbage that has come forward
in the last weeks makes it clear that there can be nothing "strikingly or confusingly" similar to the .com that is not
going to be controlled by Verisign.


I understand what you are trying to say, but it doesn't click after what I just heard 2 hours ago.

Example:

.net would an IDN as .نت in Arabic.

.نت will not exist. It's not in ICANNs interest to create that TLD, which would make it similar to .net. Instead, they are choosing a different route on what to make the TLDs and have it completely independent. (Same goes with .com and .كوم)

It's like saying that .biz conflicts with .com since it is a gTLD. It doesn't. It's nothing like .com and it's completely independent. That's what they assume will happen with new IDN TLDs. (.biz is a gTLD).

[bwhhisc]

I understand what you are trying to say, but it doesn't click after what I just heard 2 hours ago.
Example:
.net would an IDN as .نت in Arabic.
.نت will not exist. It's not in ICANNs interest to create that TLD, which would make it similar to .net. Instead, they are choosing a different route on what to make the TLDs and have it completely independent. (Same goes with .com and .كوم)

If that is what is decided, most likely they will fall under the jurisdiction of Verisign if they are the equivalent of .com and .net.
Easiest to read this thread from last week...explains it better than I can here.

http://www.idnforums.com/forums/14024-dot-com-aliasing-for-the-bollocks-talkers-please-read-and-inwardly-digest.html

[Giant]

Example:

.net would an IDN as .نت in Arabic.

.نت will not exist. It's not in ICANNs interest to create that TLD, which would make it similar to .net.

.نت in Arabic here is called a DName Record to be inserted to the Zone for mapping purpose, it is NOT a TLD (Top Level Domain).

Yes, nobody can apply .نت in Arabic TLD to confuse .net, only VeriSign can use it as a DName Record to map all IDN.نت in Arabic to .net, if نت is the right translation of .net in Arabic.

[bwhhisc]

[QUOTE=Fka200]I understand what you are trying to say, but it doesn't click after what I just heard 2 hours ago.
Example: .net would an IDN as .نت in Arabic. Same goes with .com and .كوم
[QUOTE]

Are these the equivalents of ".com" and ".net" or what is their translation?

[IDNCowboy]

.نت in Arabic here is called a DName Record to be inserted to the Zone for mapping purpose, it is NOT a TLD (Top Level Domain).
what does .نت mean then

[Giant]

Read this. It means .net in Arabic (Fka200's opinion?).



.net would an IDN as .نت in Arabic.

[Fka200]

I'm not sure you guys understood what I said. IF they were planning on using some tranlisteration of .com/.net then YES Verisign would have something to do with what was going to happen.

They are NOT planning on using ANYTHING THAT CONFUSES USERS WITH PREVIOUS TLDS! It will be SEPERATE... something seperate that won't be confused with another TLD. Kind of like how .asia isn't confused with .com. You know? What word or what will happen with the gTLDs I'm not sure of. I'm not going to lie--I'm technically challenged with this whole DNAME and stuff, but I have the general idea. She made it clear to me they would be seperate roots, or, that is what they are considering.

[Drewbert]

The elephant in the room (Verisign) is not going to be happy having to compete with others for com/net IDN "replacements".

Let's not forget where most of the money comes via, that funds ICANN.

[bwhhisc]

I'm not sure you guys understood what I said. IF they were planning on using some tranlisteration of .com/.net then YES Verisign would have something to do with what was going to happen.

There will no doubt be plenty of idn.tlds...just like there are for ascii. Most are worth but a fraction of .com though.

You can be sure there will be a form of idn.com, idn.net, idn.jp, idn.cn etc.
All in idn.idn or idn.com mapped to its equivilent.

And maybe there will be more...lots more and that is OK too. Maybe ICANN wants to offer everyone a bone here.
Why not, if there is a market for more extensions so be it.

But its a safe bet that the "top" tier will go to Verisign, JP Registry, and CNNIC and the like.

[touchring]

.نت in Arabic here is called a DName Record to be inserted to the Zone for mapping purpose, it is NOT a TLD (Top Level Domain).

Yes, nobody can apply .نت in Arabic TLD to confuse .net, only VeriSign can use it as a DName Record to map all IDN.نت in Arabic to .net, if نت is the right translation of .net in Arabic.


ok, this is a naming issue. So .نت is not a gTLD, it is only a mapping. Is it confirmed that .نت will be mapped to .net?

from what i read of previous threads, this is still an undecided issue?

Next, if aliasing is decided, has ICANN got their priorities lopsided? Shouldn't they be working out aliasing before idn gtld? If not, this would be like launching .com before .biz!!?? :o :p

[Fka200]

ok, this is a naming issue. So .نت is not a gTLD, it is only a mapping. Is it confirmed that .نت will be mapped to .net?

from what i read of previous threads, this is still an undecided issue?

Next, if aliasing is decided, has ICANN got their priorities lopsided? Shouldn't they be working out aliasing before idn gtld? If not, this would be like launching .com before .biz!!?? :o :p

Cut out aliasing. It's not in their interest to alias. They want seperate TLDS-- نت will not exist, according to ICANN. نت will cause confusion with a previous TLD, therefore won't exist (نت sounds like net). A NEW tld will be created, NOT aliasing to any other tld. Separate. Just as how .com and .biz are, so will .com and idnTLD. The arguments we used to have on the board about how supposedly نت (net) will be mapped out to .net doesn't make sense anymore considering they DON'T want to create نت. If نت is created, then YES, I assume Verisign will step in... but that's not the issue right now. It's whether something that SOUNDS like net in English will be created, which, according to ICANN, WON'T because it causes confusion with a previous TLD.


It means people who are going to use IDNs in the future will have to adapt to www.IDN.[SOME WEIRD FOREIGN WORD IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE]. .Com will stay .com, .net will stay .net, and just like the existence of .info, .biz as gTLDs, an IDNgTLD will be totally seperate, not aliased, with it's own registrants. (books.com and books.biz are different. Assuming واو is the proposed gTLD for an Arabic COUNTRY (this is a WHOLE other f*cking issue that made me REALLY angry), books.واو will be another website.


Edit: Also, this stuff was supposedly not 100% decided on (all drafts, I think... I missed the Saturday IDN meetings which supposedly had a big chunk of information regarding these issues)... but the people I spoke to seemed pretty damned sure this is what will happen. I remember hearing about some vote that will take place on Wednesday.

[IDNCowboy]

ICANN is not known to help the domainers ;-)

However, ICANN gets a .20 fee on each .com - They will have a hard time collecting if they don't aliase it.... Countries will be like wtf ;-)

[Fka200]

ICANN is not known to help the domainers ;-)

However, ICANN gets a .20 fee on each .com - They will have a hard time collecting if they don't aliase it.... Countries will be like wtf ;-)

LOL. Domain tasting is also something that might be a thing of the past. They are really pissed off about domain tasting. It was a REALLY interesting day. I wish I hadn't been lazy on Saturday and went.

What is the exact wording that says they will be new tlds?


I didn't see this earlier, but it was part of the presentation. Not sure if the slides/drafts have been posted on the ICANN website. I made damn clear that is what they were saying, though.

Read this. It means .net in Arabic (Fka200's opinion?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDN.IDN

(I used Arabic as an example, but it goes for all languages)

# Arabic:

* كوم : .com
* نت : .net

[Rubber Duck]

The problem is here, that despite advocating for many years that the Chinese use English, it would seem that even most western domainers cannot write comprehensible English or even understand written English.

[Giant]

I thank Fka200 for honestly letting us know what was said about the IDN TLD, but his interpretation of what would happen to IDN.com is totally opposite of mine.

I am happy the LA conferences did not mention DName Records but only focus on IDN TLDs. It is also my hope that they let some IDN ccTLDs be created first, and these new ccTLDs should not be causing any confusion to the previous TLDs like .com or .net....

For example: China can apply and get .中国 (xn--fiqs8s) but not .网 (xn--ur0a) to confuse with .net.

I won't tell you why not mentioning DName mapping at this stage is actually very good for IDN.com and IDN.net, this is still a secret. Remember to come back and read this post, but for now,

Don't worry, be happy!

[markits]

Giant
Agree with you.
But if you have some insider info, why not share with us?

[Fka200]

I thank Fka200 for honestly letting us know what was said about the IDN TLD, but his interpretation of what would happen to IDN.com is totally opposite of mine.

I am happy the LA conferences did not mention DName Records but only focus on IDN TLDs. It is also my hope that they let some IDN ccTLDs be created first, and these new ccTLDs should not be causing any confusion to the previous TLDs like .com or .net....

For example: China can apply and get .中国 (xn--fiqs8s) but not .网 (xn--ur0a) to confuse with .net.

I won't tell you why not mentioning DName mapping at this stage is actually very good for IDN.com and IDN.net, this is still a secret. Remember to come back and read this post, but for now,

Don't worry, be happy!


Who said I never brought up DNAME? Of course I did. We were on the topics of IDNs and TLDs with ccTLDs and gTLDs, so I brought it up. I'll post more information regarding DNAME on Wednesday night pacific time or Thursday.

[Giant]

Giant
Agree with you.
But if you have some insider info, why not share with us?

Not insider info, but a good strategy in my view. You can see what I see if you know the subject matter well enough. 天机不可泄露, 别人的商业秘密也不可泄露，so to speak.

[Fka200]

I'm at DNL chat. I'll be on for like 10 more minutes if anyone wants to hop in. Giant? You seem to know more about the technical stuff than I do... it would be great to chat with you for 5-10 minutes.

[Giant]

I'm at DNL chat. I'll be on for like 10 more minutes if anyone wants to hop in. Giant? You seem to know more about the technical stuff than I do... it would be great to chat with you for 5-10 minutes.

I've never been to DNL, but whatever we chat doesn't really help. The result from these conference is more important, but please remember not to give your interpretation too soon.

[Fka200]

I've never been to DNL, but whatever we chat doesn't really help. The result from these conference is more important, but please remember not to give your interpretation too soon.

It's not more so to chat about what happened, but more of general ideas of what to look out for Wednesday (assuming I go, which I plan on going).

Well, I didn't want to post anything to start out with because I wasn't 100% sure of what was going on [I don't want people to speculate and assume, and I also don't want the messenger to be shot just in case], but one guy said something directed to me which sort of frustrated me. I understood what he said perfectly, yet it made no sense with the research I've done in the past. I'm going to wait till Thursday till I get a better idea of what exactly is going on, but just wanted some ideas and what not so I don't look like an idiot. I'm going to ask a lot more personal questions then.

[jacksonm]

I am a realist.

What I have said in the past regarding all the gold being taken before the general public even knows that the mine is open will certainly be a major point of contention in the behind closed doors talks going on in LA. ICANN hates speculators, domainers, and will try to do anything they can to throw a spanner into the works and prevent anyone else from getting rich off of their decisions. Will it be a strong enough point to block aliasing forever? This is truly the uncertainty at this point. They may very well take this stance now and in the short term and be forced to reverse themselves later when it fails miserably. I see that ICANN is rapidly risking becoming irrelevant. If they continue dicking around, a new root server federation might be formed and major registries will just migrate their entire databases over. Hell, Verisign could just establish their own root server ring and do well even if nobody else joined it.

Like I said previously, I have full faith in greed. It might just be that ICANN is brokering some deals with registries where they intend to release IDN.bullshit across 20 languages first, suck money out of the masses, then go on with the aliasing of .com/.net 4-5 years from now.

.

[touchring]

Cut out aliasing. It's not in their interest to alias. They want seperate TLDS-- نت will not exist, according to ICANN. نت will cause confusion with a previous TLD, therefore won't exist (نت sounds like net). A NEW tld will be created, NOT aliasing to any other tld. Separate. Just as how .com and .biz are, so will .com and idnTLD. The arguments we used to have on the board about how supposedly نت (net) will be mapped out to .net doesn't make sense anymore considering they DON'T want to create نت. If نت is created, then YES, I assume Verisign will step in... but that's not the issue right now. It's whether something that SOUNDS like net in English will be created, which, according to ICANN, WON'T because it causes confusion with a previous TLD.


It means people who are going to use IDNs in the future will have to adapt to www.IDN.[SOME WEIRD FOREIGN WORD IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE]. .Com will stay .com, .net will stay .net, and just like the existence of .info, .biz as gTLDs, an IDNgTLD will be totally seperate, not aliased, with it's own registrants. (books.com and books.biz are different. Assuming واو is the proposed gTLD for an Arabic COUNTRY (this is a WHOLE other f*cking issue that made me REALLY angry), books.واو will be another website.


Edit: Also, this stuff was supposedly not 100% decided on (all drafts, I think... I missed the Saturday IDN meetings which supposedly had a big chunk of information regarding these issues)... but the people I spoke to seemed pretty damned sure this is what will happen. I remember hearing about some vote that will take place on Wednesday.



I'm sorry, but i can't seem to see the rationale. Does this mean that there will not be .idn for travel, .biz, .com, .net, .mobi, .org, .edu, .info......

If not, then what will they use? idn for .xxx? :p

[Fka200]

What boggles my mind the most is we were sitting talking about IDN TLDs when the guy representing the Chinese registry didn't mention the .cn to .idn stuff.

Edit: Just to add, the proposal I heard from them is to create multiple TLDs for China -> one for each script. I think simplified and traditional and maybe another... but I remember simplified and traditional.

[Olney]

Thanks for reporting about this.
IDN tlds aren't even a guaranteed success. Many markets won't even need it.
In the case of here, I'm not hearing a peep about IDN.IDN because we know that the countries that want to use IDNs aren't controlling the development.
We have browser support & think the countries that have waited this long will support & promote what they have. If the IDN.IDN comes they'll promote it locally after they arrive.

[Rubber Duck]

Frankly, I think this just plain wrong.

ICANN definitely don't see it as their role to help or assist us. Why should they?

But, they don't understand our business sufficiently well to have an informed view of what would and wouldn't help. They are not also going to prejudice what they see as their own objectives, just to deliberately disadvantage us.

We just don't matter enough either way!

I am a realist.

What I have said in the past regarding all the gold being taken before the general public even knows that the mine is open will certainly be a major point of contention in the behind closed doors talks going on in LA. ICANN hates speculators, domainers, and will try to do anything they can to throw a spanner into the works and prevent anyone else from getting rich off of their decisions. Will it be a strong enough point to block aliasing forever? This is truly the uncertainty at this point. They may very well take this stance now and in the short term and be forced to reverse themselves later when it fails miserably. I see that ICANN is rapidly risking becoming irrelevant. If they continue dicking around, a new root server federation might be formed and major registries will just migrate their entire databases over. Hell, Verisign could just establish their own root server ring and do well even if nobody else joined it.

Like I said previously, I have full faith in greed. It might just be that ICANN is brokering some deals with registries where they intend to release IDN.bullshit across 20 languages first, suck money out of the masses, then go on with the aliasing of .com/.net 4-5 years from now.

.

[jacksonm]

Frankly, I think this just plain wrong.

ICANN definitely don't see it as their role to help or assist us. Why should they?

But, they don't understand our business sufficiently well to have an informed view of what would and wouldn't help. They are not also going to prejudice what they see as their own objectives, just to deliberately disadvantage us.

We just don't matter enough either way!

Well, it's just my view of the situation. We all have our own. All of them are interesting to me.

I do, however, believe that ICANN might try to cut off their nose just to spite their face. To me, it appears that this is exactly what they are proposing now. Of course, we can't be privy to the political instructions that they are up against from the US Govt. There is probably a whole lot more to this than any one of us can really fathom.

.

[bwhhisc]

Sammy, any updates or news today out of the ICANN meeting?
Look for the Verisign reps and see whats up from their perspective with our .coms.

[Fka200]

Any updates or news today out of the ICANN meeting?

I don't remember there being much about IDNs today. Wednesday is the main day.

[zfreud]

For what its worth here's my take.

First, I think many here think ICANN has some secret wizard behind the curtain that controls agendas rather than recognizing the reality that it is an organization composed of a diverse cross section of people shaping policy. Of course some voices in this body have more authority. But at bottom we're dealing with an organization that is somewhat democratic with all that the word "somewhat' implies. Like most quasi-democratic organizations it is both dysfunctional while also being for the most part good intentioned.

At any rate, I've heard from multiple sources, both inside Verisign and inside ICANN, that DNAME is effectively dead. There is no one source who can effectively make this call, but the consensus is that it is a non-starter for a variety of reasons, mostly political in nature. The direction that seems palatable to the wide number of divergent interests when it comes to International TLDs (ITLD) is this:

1: Country TLDs will be the first to be internationalized. It will be up to the countries themselves how they choose to deal with their internationalized TLD as it relates to their existing roman script one. For example, if China wants to grant existing hanzi script .cn owners’ access to whatever their ICANN approved ITLD is, that is entirely their decision. However, they will not be aliased nor will this be automatic. While it seems likely that many countries will grant current IDN.ctld owners their equivalent IDN.ictld it is not guaranteed. They will be DIFFERENT TLDs.

2: As clearly indicated by Fka200, new ITLDs will be granted just like any other roman script TLDs are granted today. Meaning, they must pass certain requirements, such as not being confusingly similar to an existing TLD.

PUT SIMPLY, THERE WILL BE NO ALIASING! DNAME AND ALIASING ARE EFFECTIVELY DEAD IN THE WATER.

Further, there will be no ".com" equivalent in foreign languages if they are considered confusingly similar to .com in English. If someone wants a gTLD that is meant to be the equivalent of ".com" in a foreign script, hanzi for example, they'll have to prove it isn't confusingly similar to .com in English. Of course that opens a can of worms for the policy folks but in the end it's viewed as the best answer among a host of more contentious ones. This is obviously a highly charged issue but it's pretty clear that any dreams of digital colonialism on Verisign's part are going to have to rest with making .com in roman script recognizable globally...which arguably is already a done deal.

What does this mean?

In my opinion it means .com, the only effective international gTLD, the Esperanto of iTLDS, will remain the de facto IDN domain king.

The reality is that once IDN cTLDs are approved we'll start to see greater adoption of both IDN.ictld and IDN.com

[IDNCowboy]

For what its worth here's my take.

First, I think many here think ICANN has some secret wizard behind the curtain that controls agendas rather than recognizing the reality that it is an organization composed of a diverse cross section of people shaping policy. Of course some voices in this body have more authority. But at bottom we're dealing with an organization that is somewhat democratic with all that the word "somewhat' implies. Like most quasi-democratic organizations it is both dysfunctional while also being for the most part good intentioned.

At any rate, I've heard from multiple sources, both inside Verisign and inside ICANN, that DNAME is effectively dead. There is no one source who can effectively make this call, but the consensus is that it is a non-starter for a variety of reasons, mostly political in nature. The direction that seems palatable to the wide number of divergent interests when it comes to International TLDs (ITLD) is this:

1: Country TLDs will be the first to be internationalized. It will be up to the countries themselves how they choose to deal with their internationalized TLD as it relates to their existing roman script one. For example, if China wants to grant existing hanzi script .cn owners’ access to whatever their ICANN approved ITLD is, that is entirely their decision. However, they will not be aliased nor will this be automatic. While it seems likely that many countries will grant current IDN.ctld owners their equivalent IDN.ictld it is not guaranteed. They will be DIFFERENT TLDs.

2: As clearly indicated by Fka200, new ITLDs will be granted just like any other roman script TLDs are granted today. Meaning, they must pass certain requirements, such as not being confusingly similar to an existing TLD.

PUT SIMPLY, THERE WILL BE NO ALIASING! DNAME AND ALIASING ARE EFFECTIVELY DEAD IN THE WATER.

Further, there will be no ".com" equivalent in foreign languages if they are considered confusingly similar to .com in English. If someone wants a gTLD that is meant to be the equivalent of ".com" in a foreign script, hanzi for example, they'll have to prove it isn't confusingly similar to .com in English. Of course that opens a can of worms for the policy folks but in the end it's viewed as the best answer among a host of more contentious ones. This is obviously a highly charged issue but it's pretty clear that any dreams of digital colonialism on Verisign's part are going to have to rest with making .com in roman script recognizable globally...which arguably is already a done deal.

What does this mean?

In my opinion it means .com, the only effective international gTLD, the Esperanto of iTLDS, will remain the de facto IDN domain king.

The reality is that once IDN cTLDs are approved we'll start to see greater adoption of both IDN.ictld and IDN.com
R.I.P.. Dname

[Fka200]

What does this mean?

In my opinion it means .com, the only effective international gTLD, the Esperanto of iTLDS, will remain the de facto IDN domain king.




Depends on the market.

Sammy, any updates or news today out of the ICANN meeting?
Look for the Verisign reps and see whats up from their perspective with our .coms.


Will report tomorrow or Thursday night, but I didn't go today.

[burnsinternet]

I hope Japan is on deck.

[IDNCowboy]

Well you have to understand most likely the people at these workshops have never touched domain names -

It's like U.S. senators making crazy internet laws without knowing what they are doing....

Some of these attendees think IDNs do not exist at the present and are trying to form new idn tlds from scratch.

[touchring]

I don't remember there being much about IDNs today. Wednesday is the main day.


Wednesday is the day! US Fed will decide whether to cut rate. Stocks up or collapse depends on that. :o

[burnsinternet]

Wednesday is the day! US Fed will decide whether to cut rate. Stocks up or collapse depends on that. :o

OK, that was wierd. I doubt ICANN is waiting for the Fed....

[bwhhisc]

Further, there will be no ".com" equivalent in foreign languages if they are considered confusingly similar to .com in English. If someone wants a gTLD that is meant to be the equivalent of ".com" in a foreign script, hanzi for example, they'll have to prove it isn't confusingly similar to .com in English. In my opinion it means .com, the only effective international gTLD, the Esperanto of iTLDS, will remain the de facto IDN domain king. The reality is that once IDN cTLDs are approved we'll start to see greater adoption of both IDN.ictld and IDN.com

Maybe Verisign will want the equivalent of idn.com in each language as idn.idn.
Seems that would be a logical move in this space.

So the question is can Verisign then have (the same) idn.com and its equal idn.idn(com) map to the same site?

[Giant]

In my opinion it means .com, the only effective international gTLD, the Esperanto of iTLDS, will remain the de facto IDN domain king.

This has been my view all along, IDN.com is the final product. I have said many times in the last 2 years that discussions of deployment of IDN extensions are just a waste of time. I am glad we don't need another 3 more years to have realized this.

[Fka200]

This has been my view all along, IDN.com is the final product. I have said many times in the last 2 years that discussions of deployment of IDN extensions are just a waste of time. I am glad we don't need another 3 more years to have realized this.

Once again, depends on the market :).

Maybe Verisign will want the equivalent of idn.com in each language as idn.idn.
Seems that would be a logical move in this space.

So the question is can Verisign then have (the same) idn.com and its equal idn.idn(com) map to the same site?

According to what I heard on Sunday, NO. But like I said, I'm not into the whole technical stuff with domaining.

[Giant]

1: Country TLDs will be the first to be internationalized. It will be up to the countries themselves how they choose to deal with their internationalized TLD as it relates to their existing roman script one. For example, if China wants to grant existing hanzi script .cn owners’ access to whatever their ICANN approved ITLD is, that is entirely their decision. However, they will not be aliased nor will this be automatic. While it seems likely that many countries will grant current IDN.ctld owners their equivalent IDN.ictld it is not guaranteed. They will be DIFFERENT TLDs.

Actually, IDN extention is a trap. If China creates a .中国 extention, I don't think they can alias .中国 to .cn successfully. And if they let .中国 be a seperate TLD of its own, it will destroy the beauty of .cn.





Once again, depends on the market :).

You're right, I always refer to Chinese market :-)

[touchring]

Actually, IDN extention is a trap. If China creates a .中国 extention, I don't think they can alias .中国 to .cn successfully. And if they let .中国 be a seperate TLD of its own, it will destroy the beauty of .cn.






You're right, I always refer to Chinese market :-)


i don't understand this. doesn't the .中国 extension already exists and is aliased to .cn?

[IDNCowboy]

i don't understand this. doesn't the .中国 extension already exists and is aliased to .cn?
not officially

china just has it working within their borders - it is not recognized by icann as official

[touchring]

not officially

china just has it working within their borders - it is not recognized by icann as official


I that think is good enough. 99% of visitors are within the borders.

[Giant]

I that think is good enough. 99% of visitors are within the borders.
Then no need to apply another one at the Root (globally).



i don't understand this. doesn't the .中国 extension already exists and is aliased to .cn?

For aliasing purpose. DName is the best technology at this time, but it's not possible to make use of it because of many (including political) reasons.

It's easy for China to get a .中国 extention, but tell me how you can alias 人体.中国 (or 人體.中国 or 人体.中國 or 人體.中國) and loan.中国 (or loan.中國) to 人体.cn and loan.cn? Easy? Maybe NOT.

[markits]

.中国 works on computers having cnnic plugin installed, but the majority of Chinese users won't bother to install this plug in. I also heard that it can be implemented at isp level. Either way, it is not the real sense domain (can be visited globally).

[jacksonm]

What does this mean?


It means that everybody with RTL domains just got rammed up the ass.

Who is ready to begin the lawsuit against ICANN?

.

[Rubber Duck]

I agree in principal with you comments on ICANN but there are organisations that lobby and attempt to steer events, some with significant success.

I think you are wrong about DNAME but it has been booted into the long grass, because for now at least it simply isn't needed. Aliasing can and will be done in the Root, which will suffice for now. Yes, you are correct that DNAMES or not each and every extension is going to have to go through an approval stage, although it is clear that some will be take much longer than others.

The assumption that Country TLDs are going first is not as clear as it should be. That would be the obvious step, but ICANN doesn't do obvious.

I think that you are correct is as much that igTLD.ASCII will become defacto standards in many important markets, but this is never going to work for Arabic, Hebrew, Urdu or Farsi, so some aliasing will have to occur, even if DNAME is not used as a mechanism.

As for the GNSO, which is the body that is going to be approving igTLDs, it is pretty much controlled by the existing gTLD registries. There is no meaningful representation for the ccTLD registries or NICS, so it is pretty much certain that between them they will get exactly what they want.


For what its worth here's my take.

First, I think many here think ICANN has some secret wizard behind the curtain that controls agendas rather than recognizing the reality that it is an organization composed of a diverse cross section of people shaping policy. Of course some voices in this body have more authority. But at bottom we're dealing with an organization that is somewhat democratic with all that the word "somewhat' implies. Like most quasi-democratic organizations it is both dysfunctional while also being for the most part good intentioned.

At any rate, I've heard from multiple sources, both inside Verisign and inside ICANN, that DNAME is effectively dead. There is no one source who can effectively make this call, but the consensus is that it is a non-starter for a variety of reasons, mostly political in nature. The direction that seems palatable to the wide number of divergent interests when it comes to International TLDs (ITLD) is this:

1: Country TLDs will be the first to be internationalized. It will be up to the countries themselves how they choose to deal with their internationalized TLD as it relates to their existing roman script one. For example, if China wants to grant existing hanzi script .cn owners’ access to whatever their ICANN approved ITLD is, that is entirely their decision. However, they will not be aliased nor will this be automatic. While it seems likely that many countries will grant current IDN.ctld owners their equivalent IDN.ictld it is not guaranteed. They will be DIFFERENT TLDs.

2: As clearly indicated by Fka200, new ITLDs will be granted just like any other roman script TLDs are granted today. Meaning, they must pass certain requirements, such as not being confusingly similar to an existing TLD.

PUT SIMPLY, THERE WILL BE NO ALIASING! DNAME AND ALIASING ARE EFFECTIVELY DEAD IN THE WATER.

Further, there will be no ".com" equivalent in foreign languages if they are considered confusingly similar to .com in English. If someone wants a gTLD that is meant to be the equivalent of ".com" in a foreign script, hanzi for example, they'll have to prove it isn't confusingly similar to .com in English. Of course that opens a can of worms for the policy folks but in the end it's viewed as the best answer among a host of more contentious ones. This is obviously a highly charged issue but it's pretty clear that any dreams of digital colonialism on Verisign's part are going to have to rest with making .com in roman script recognizable globally...which arguably is already a done deal.

What does this mean?

In my opinion it means .com, the only effective international gTLD, the Esperanto of iTLDS, will remain the de facto IDN domain king.

The reality is that once IDN cTLDs are approved we'll start to see greater adoption of both IDN.ictld and IDN.com

[touchring]

.中国 works on computers having cnnic plugin installed, but the majority of Chinese users won't bother to install this plug in. I also heard that it can be implemented at isp level. Either way, it is not the real sense domain (can be visited globally).


Yes, it works in china, the redirect is done at the ISP level. See attached.

[markits]

Yes, it works in china, the redirect is done at the ISP level. See attached.
But still many people can't visit it, means not all isps have implemented this, they may never bother to do so.

[touchring]

But still many people can't visit it, means not all isps have implemented this, they may never bother to do so.


Is it? It works in xiamen.

[Rubber Duck]

The Chinese could easily have made this work if they had wanted to.

The half-hearted implementation proves that it was never more than a ploy to put pressure on the US Commerce Dept. and ICANN.

[jacksonm]

Let's see how the situation looks tomorrow, after today's meetings have concluded.

I still have faith that aliasing will eventually occur. The reason is that ICANN is already saying that no confusingly similar transliterations can be granted to a different registry. This effectively means that these strings will continue to be available and can only be granted to the original ASCII extension registry.

My primary interest is Arabic. From the Arabic perspective, any registry which is controlled by Arabs is basically doomed to failure because of inter-league rivalries, corruption, and repressive governments. Dot COM and DOT NET have been the clear leaders so far across the Arab world, and I believe for the above reasons that they will continue to be. I believe that Verisign will eventually be able to press ICANN into aliasing DOT COM, but it will be another drawn out process.

Country representatives on the committees which have been discussing aliasing and DNAME have very likely argued that the gold is already gone and few of the native companies would have a fair chance to get prime domains. I would be willing to bet a fairly large sum of money that this is indeed the number one point of political contention against aliasing/DNAME in the close door meetings. They very likely have the feeling that if they can get ahold of IDN.IDN in some new gTLD, then they will have a chance to obtain valuable domains and reach critical mass of adoption before IDN.COM is aliased - a non-competition period, if you will.

In case I am wrong, then Jim Morrison said it best:


This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end

Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
Ill never look into your eyes...again

Can you picture what will be
So limitless and free
Desperately in need...of some...strangers hand
In a...desperate land


.

[alpha]

This has been my view all along, IDN.com is the final product. I have said many times in the last 2 years that discussions of deployment of IDN extensions are just a waste of time. I am glad we don't need another 3 more years to have realized this.

okie dokie. So .com is the final product.

So errr, where's the damn traffic? coz all i have is tumbleweeds

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/55/38/23213855.jpg

[Rubber Duck]

The two missing factors are technical support and hype. Both are coming.

The Com is about as arbitrary and meaningless as everything else. The things that matter are timing, hype and momentum. Given these factors dot Dodo would fly!

[sunsei21]

okie dokie. So .com is the final product.

So errr, where's the damn traffic? coz all i have is tumbleweeds

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/55/38/23213855.jpg

lol same here but i have a theory i have never direct navigated a thing as far as search never wanted too , but with development of real sites not search engine spam (not knocking anyone but it is what it is) i think general traffic will increase based on "hey cars.coms does this i wonder what is at trucks.com etc curiosity is the only thing that would make me type in bigfatchickswithtwochins.com :cool:

[Rubber Duck]

Interestingly I was asked yesterday to publish my Traffic Stats. I declined.

My logic is that if the World is full of blood sucking leaches hanging around for Traffic, let them get their own bloody stats. :p

[jacksonm]

Interestingly I was asked yesterday to publish my Traffic Stats. I declined.

My logic is that if the World is full of blood sucking leaches hanging around for Traffic, let them get their own bloody stats. :p


My October traffic at ND was more than double that of September, with Chinese and Japanese leading the pack. This is even after I keep pulling the traffic domains out and putting minisites on them. ND is little more than an indicator to me about which domains to develop.

.

[sunsei21]

My October traffic at ND was more than double that of September, with Chinese and Japanese leading the pack. This is even after I keep pulling the traffic domains out and putting minisites on them. ND is little more than an indicator to me about which domains to develop.

.
i have experienced the same thing after i checked seems google loved my porfolio this month as most my names are indexed

[Fka200]

It means that everybody with RTL domains just got rammed up the ass.

Who is ready to begin the lawsuit against ICANN?

.

Not exactly. I believe RTL needs aliasing/idn.idn, but idn.ascii is still not worthless for RTL quite yet.

I believe their going to f*ck up with the IDN tlds right now. From what I've heard, all their proposals SUCK. What they want to do with them will kill off IDN.IDN from ever being successful. Aliasing was the only thing that made sense. If they don't go that route, I believe IDN.IDN will be the same any other shitty ccTLD (shittier than .ws). Also, I don't think people will adapt to IDN.IDN the way they would've adapted to DNAME'd نت / كوم (net/com).

[thefabfive]

Not exactly. I believe RTL needs aliasing/idn.idn, but idn.ascii is still not worthless for RTL quite yet.

I believe their going to f*ck up with the IDN tlds right now. From what I've heard, all their proposals SUCK. What they want to do with them will kill off IDN.IDN from ever being successful. Aliasing was the only thing that made sense. If they don't go that route, I believe IDN.IDN will be the same any other shitty ccTLD (shittier than .ws). Also, I don't think people will adapt to IDN.IDN the way they would've adapted to DNAME'd نت / كوم (net/com).
Absolutely.

The same reasons many investors shy away from .ru or .cn will be the reasons to stay away from IDN.IDN operated by shady international registrars.

At the end of the day, we still own the .coms and .nets. Not a bad position to be in.

[Rubber Duck]

Not exactly. I believe RTL needs aliasing/idn.idn, but idn.ascii is still not worthless for RTL quite yet.

I believe their going to f*ck up with the IDN tlds right now. From what I've heard, all their proposals SUCK. What they want to do with them will kill off IDN.IDN from ever being successful. Aliasing was the only thing that made sense. If they don't go that route, I believe IDN.IDN will be the same any other shitty ccTLD (shittier than .ws). Also, I don't think people will adapt to IDN.IDN the way they would've adapted to DNAME'd نت / كوم (net/com).

We will get Aliasing just not via DNAME, no just yet at least. The mechanism is really of little interest to your average domainer and none at all to your average punter.

[burnsinternet]

Interestingly I was asked yesterday to publish my Traffic Stats. I declined.

My logic is that if the World is full of blood sucking leaches hanging around for Traffic, let them get their own bloody stats. :p

That was me, RD. I posted my generic numbers so that others might chime in and, together, we might get a picture of what is happening with Traffic.

I don't give a hoot about your specifics, just the generalities.

I wonder if others are getting more and more traffic - month after month. I wonder to myself, is it just that my Russian domains are THAT good or is Russian the top-dog in traffic right now? I wonder if others are receiving traffic to Turkish, Czech, Polish, Swedish, French, etc. I wonder these things, I post on the forum, and no one responds.

I asked you to respond, RD, because you probably have a lot of domains and some interesting traffic patterns. I also asked as a gesture, an olive branch, a hand extended in friendship and teamwork....

You declined. OK. You don't have to call me a leach. Your stats mean nothing to me, in the scheme of things. There are several members here who probably realize that your stats will change NOTHING about my strategies. I am what I am, and I reg what I please.

I hoped that, together, we could present a united front. Constructive engagement on my part. I will probably keep trying to reach you. At some point, you will understand that I am not your enemy.

[Fka200]

Wait--Edit :)

IDNs are up.

[bwhhisc]

Wait--Edit :)

IDNs are up.

Rollercoaster ride....Day 4

You see any "Press" people there from Wall Street Journal, LA Times, Business Week etc.?
Their heads must be spinning...

[Fka200]

Rollercoaster ride....Day 4

You see any "Press" people there from Wall Street Journal, LA Times, Business Week etc.?
Their heads must be spinning...

No...

Nothing special happened. Will report in 1 hour [Something is supposedly decided on]. I'm in DNL chat just sitting around if you feel like coming in!

[Rubber Duck]

I don't consider you a leach, I consider to you be a serious asset to this community, and I did you a reasonable indication of what was happening. I did, however, decline to post in open forum and I shall continue to do so.

We have a very good picture of what is going on because we are so widely invested. We do not wish to distribute that information widely but will continue to respond to PM's from establish members of this forum who have their own portfolios and wish to exchange information on a collaborative basis.

That was me, RD. I posted my generic numbers so that others might chime in and, together, we might get a picture of what is happening with Traffic.

I don't give a hoot about your specifics, just the generalities.

I wonder if others are getting more and more traffic - month after month. I wonder to myself, is it just that my Russian domains are THAT good or is Russian the top-dog in traffic right now? I wonder if others are receiving traffic to Turkish, Czech, Polish, Swedish, French, etc. I wonder these things, I post on the forum, and no one responds.

I asked you to respond, RD, because you probably have a lot of domains and some interesting traffic patterns. I also asked as a gesture, an olive branch, a hand extended in friendship and teamwork....

You declined. OK. You don't have to call me a leach. Your stats mean nothing to me, in the scheme of things. There are several members here who probably realize that your stats will change NOTHING about my strategies. I am what I am, and I reg what I please.

I hoped that, together, we could present a united front. Constructive engagement on my part. I will probably keep trying to reach you. At some point, you will understand that I am not your enemy.

[Fka200]

Well, the only interesting thing today was winking to people across the room and such (those in DNL chatroom know what I'm talking about).

Till tomorrow. Going to sleep early to participate in the ICANN Public Forum.

[yanni]

Some of us got there late so we don't know

What time is the public forum tomorrow?

[Fka200]

Some of us got there late so we don't know

What time is the public forum tomorrow?

You were there! What meetings did you attend?

Public forum should be @ 8:30AM. It's going to be a pain trying to wake up, but I'm going to try.

[yanni]

No, I meant the DNL chat :)

I was gonna try for tomorrow, but 8:30 am on the 405 is not my cup of tea.
I'll have to wait for your findings.

[Fka200]

No, I meant the DNL chat :)

I was gonna try for tomorrow, but 8:30 am on the 405 is not my cup of tea.
I'll have to wait for your findings.

Don't remind me about the 405. WOW do I hate that freeway... even worse, someone decided to get into a car accident today.

I'll be on DNL chat while there :).

[yanni]

Yea, saw it on tv. Right by the airport too...

I'll be checking the chat to see what you've got.

[markits]

Is it? It works in xiamen.
http://www.domain.cn/club/viewthread.php?tid=328609&extra=page%3D2
:)

[touchring]

http://www.domain.cn/club/viewthread.php?tid=328609&extra=page%3D2
:)


did you try when you were at hangzhou the other time?

[markits]

Yes I tried. Not working then.
But it has been for a while and things may have been changed since.

[touchring]

Yes I tried. Not working then.
But it has been for a while and things may have been changed since.


How's hangzhou? There must be great changes since you last visited. Chinese cities change every 2 years.

[burnsinternet]

Got it. Thanks.

I don't consider you a leach, I consider to you be a serious asset to this community, and I did you a reasonable indication of what was happening. I did, however, decline to post in open forum and I shall continue to do so.

We have a very good picture of what is going on because we are so widely invested. We do not wish to distribute that information widely but will continue to respond to PM's from establish members of this forum who have their own portfolios and wish to exchange information on a collaborative basis.

[markits]

I am thinking about settling back to Hangzhou permantly.
Paradise, so people says.
How's hangzhou? There must be great changes since you last visited. Chinese cities change every 2 years.

[Giant]

did you try when you were at hangzhou the other time?
Not working by China Telecom.

[IDNCowboy]

I don't consider you a leach, I consider to you be a serious asset to this community, and I did you a reasonable indication of what was happening. I did, however, decline to post in open forum and I shall continue to do so.

We have a very good picture of what is going on because we are so widely invested. We do not wish to distribute that information widely but will continue to respond to PM's from establish members of this forum who have their own portfolios and wish to exchange information on a collaborative basis.
Yep as always you are the smartest IDNer - nobody is as smart as you when it comes to IDNs........ Your names are much better than the ones on snap too - yea... OK ;-)

[Rubber Duck]

Yep as always you are the smartest IDNer - nobody is as smart as you when it comes to IDNs........ Your names are much better than the ones on snap too - yea... OK ;-)

Look Cowboy, if that is what I intended to say, do you think I would not have had the balls or the grasp of English to say it?