View Full Version : Rick Schwartz on IDNs"when the market says so"
bwhhisc
17th November 2007, 12:46 AM
RS on "follow the money" musings on his blog:
"IDN won't be big because somebody says so. It will be big when/if the market says so. When the numbers say so."
"In 2007 so far of the top 100 reported sales 91 are .com. So dotcom is KING, not because I say so but because the market says so."
http://www.ricksblog.com/my_weblog/2007/11/the-real-story.html
IDNCowboy
17th November 2007, 01:00 AM
RS on "follow the money" musings on his blog:
"IDN won't be big because somebody says so. It will be big when/if the market says so. When the numbers say so."
"In 2007 so far of the top 100 reported sales 91 are .com. So dotcom is KING, not because I say so but because the market says so."
http://www.ricksblog.com/my_weblog/2007/11/the-real-story.html
Jay's translations were wrong....
The domain king only parks domains.....Hell, with his names I'd be a millionaire too.
Shows you the fearless leaders lack knowledge in the field...
German IDN .de's have been doing pretty well..... Most people just don't "get" there are other languages in the world that are widely used.
Olney
17th November 2007, 01:02 AM
He's correct to a certain extent but the problem is
IDNs bought & sold in the local countries won't be reported to DNJournal.
Most of us didn't even know about Eachnic.com etc.
Asian countries tend to keep that stuff to themselves, I've heard of domain sales already here but even the people telling me won't mention what exact domains were sold but I've heard the prices.
Our local markets won't really get into reporting to the US market because they just won't want to.
You don't hear that Yahoo! Japan has more money in the bank than all the other Yahoo combined but it's true.
So he's right the individual local markets will determine when IDNs are big.
Germany has SEDO & that market IDNs are already doing well it seems.
IDNCowboy
17th November 2007, 01:22 AM
He groups IDNs separately from dot coms...
case closed
Wot
17th November 2007, 01:41 AM
He groups IDNs separately from dot coms...
case closed
And ;)
IDNCowboy
17th November 2007, 01:48 AM
And ;)
If he wants to do that approach then it would be something like:
LLL.com vs LLLL.com vs Geo.com's vs generic.com's vs idn .com
not grouping all of .com vs IDN
Fka200
17th November 2007, 01:51 AM
I realized that to. Kind of weird since a lot of my IDNs have ".com" at the end.
idnowner
17th November 2007, 01:57 AM
I think the "real" IDN market will take off as soon as we know the official implementation of IDN.IDN and how it will be associated with IDN.com and IDN.net, in addition to significant increases in traffic. From recent ICANN info, we may have a good idea in 6 to 8 months.
IDNCowboy
17th November 2007, 01:59 AM
I think the "real" IDN market will take off as soon as we know the official implementation of IDN.IDN and how it will be associated with IDN.com and IDN.net, in addition to significant increases in traffic. From recent ICANN info, we may have a good idea in 6 to 8 months.
6 to 8 months or 6 to 8 years? ;-)
If the next ICANN meeting is anything like the last two then you can count on 6 to 8 YEARS.....
idnowner
17th November 2007, 02:10 AM
6 to 8 months or 6 to 8 years? ;-)
I know what you mean. I've been waiting for 7 years already, with many ups and downs in between. But, from what they claim, the "real" IDN.IDN could be implemented, or at least officially sanctioned and announced by the middle of next year, which would give many buyers the confidence in knowing that the domains are good as gold. However, if they don't associate IDN.com with IDN.IDN, then I see potential problems with massive confusion and further delays in moving the market into the fast lane.
IDNCowboy
17th November 2007, 02:20 AM
I know what you mean. I've been waiting for 7 years already, with many ups and downs in between. But, from what they claim, the "real" IDN.IDN could be implemented, or at least officially sanctioned and announced by the middle of next year, which would give many buyers the confidence in knowing that the domains are good as gold. However, if they don't associate IDN.com with IDN.IDN, then I see potential problems with massive confusion and further delays in moving the market into the fast lane.
If they make idn.idn separate are you going to buy tons of those too?
Keep in mind it will take years for people to remember the new extensions as they are used to typing .com or .cn ...
idnowner
17th November 2007, 02:25 AM
If they make idn.idn separate are you going to buy tons of those too?
Keep in mind it will take years for people to remember the new extensions as they are used to typing .com or .cn ...
It depends on how hard they would make the process - applications, sunrise periods, pre-registration fees, residency rules, etc. The competition was bad enough in November 2000. Unless you've got some kind of inside help or secrets, I'd image getting to some of the top-tier names would be futile.
bwhhisc
17th November 2007, 02:26 AM
It depends on how hard they would make the process - applications, sunrise periods, pre-registration fees, residency rules, etc. The competition was bad enough in November 2000. Unless you've got some kind of inside help or secrets, I'd image getting to some of the top-tier names would be futile.
Curious, how did they award names that had multiple applications in 2000?
idnowner
17th November 2007, 02:29 AM
Curious, how did they award names that had multiple applications in 2000?
There were a number of pre-registration queues. At the time, I believe I mainly used Dotster.com and Alldomains.com. I also picked up my best names in a drop in 2001 at Register.com.
IDNCowboy
17th November 2007, 02:36 AM
It depends on how hard they would make the process - applications, sunrise periods, pre-registration fees, residency rules, etc. The competition was bad enough in November 2000. Unless you've got some kind of inside help or secrets, I'd image getting to some of the top-tier names would be futile.
not too worried - when new stuff comes out you'll always see sales of top tier names for $xxx- $xxxx until people know they are worthwhile.... could be another fluke..
idnowner
17th November 2007, 02:46 AM
not too worried - when new stuff comes out you'll always see sales of top tier names for $xxx- $xxxx until people know they are worthwhile.... could be another fluke..
Talking about names like Real Estate, Loans, Money, Cars, Health, Weather, News, Stock, Credit, Movies, Music, etc.
I don't think you'll see names like these going for prices below $10K from the start, because this time, the domains will be the real deal, and I think most of the new owners will know what they've got, not to say you can't snag a few good deals. We've already seen speculator prices in the $X,XXX to $XX,XXX range for IDN.com and IDN.net, in the past two years, even with all of the uncertainty and confusion. I've even purchased some Japanese IDN.coms at $1,000 each.
IDNCowboy
17th November 2007, 02:51 AM
I don't think you'll see names like these going for prices below $10K from the start, because this time, the domains will be the real deal .
Hate to bust your bubble but natives aren't gonna automatically type .idn - They are more likely to type IDN .com as they know .com but they aren't used to typing the .idn. It will take years before natives get used to that...
idnowner
17th November 2007, 02:56 AM
Hate to bust your bubble but natives aren't gonna automatically type .idn - They are more likely to type IDN .com as they know .com but they aren't used to typing the .idn. It will take years before natives get used to that...
I don't mind you bursting my bubble with this one! I hope and pray that IDN.com will be the best and most valuable ones. Ideally, IDN.com will be DNAME'd or aliased with IDN.IDN. But even if there are two versions, I can't predict which will be preferred in the long run. But no matter which may be preferred, if IDN.com gets traffic, it will be worth something, based on PPC revenue or any other way you can convert traffic to cash.
touchring
17th November 2007, 05:56 AM
The competition was bad enough in November 2000. Unless you've got some kind of inside help or secrets, I'd image getting to some of the top-tier names would be futile.
That being the case, how did TDC end up with so many of them?
"IDN won't be big because somebody says so. It will be big when/if the market says so. When the numbers say so."[/url]
This is a smirk. The market referring to himself and his gang. Got it? And that somebody might refer to a bird. :p
thegenius1
17th November 2007, 06:10 AM
"IDN won't be big because somebody says so. It will be big when/if the market says so. When the numbers say so."
LMAO , Dot Mobi
Frank LHAO , Dot Mobi
Sahar LHAO , Dot Mobi
We all know somebody " said so about .mobi"
IDN is common sense , Duh !
Even R.S said " Hell NO " ABOUT BELIEVING IN dOT MOBI HIMSELF
IDNCowboy
17th November 2007, 06:17 AM
That being the case, how did TDC end up with so many of them?
This is a smirk. The market referring to himself and his gang. Got it? And that somebody might refer to a bird. :p
TDC owns ITSYOURDOMAIN a registrar - They had direct access ;-)
clipper
17th November 2007, 06:48 AM
TDC owns ITSYOURDOMAIN a registrar - They had direct access ;-)
Can you provide documentation of this? It would make sense, since I never saw that registrar until I started looking up IDNs.
IDNCowboy
17th November 2007, 06:55 AM
Can you provide documentation of this? It would make sense, since I never saw that registrar until I started looking up IDNs.
Both ITSYOURDOMAIN & TDC have the same address. Also I have inquired about domains from TDC and both companies have the same staff. The CEO of ITSYOURDOMAIN owns the IDN portfolio under "TDC" ;-)
touchring
17th November 2007, 07:28 AM
Both ITSYOURDOMAIN & TDC have the same address. Also I have inquired about domains from TDC and both companies have the same staff. The CEO of ITSYOURDOMAIN owns the IDN portfolio under "TDC" ;-)
http://about.tucows.com/media/news/tucows-acquires-itsyourdomaincom/
Tucow bought over itsyourdomain, does this mean they took over the idns also?
jacksonm
17th November 2007, 08:06 AM
http://about.tucows.com/media/news/tucows-acquires-itsyourdomaincom/
Tucow bought over itsyourdomain, does this mean they took over the idns also?
We've been over this before. The IDNs were not part of the deal.
.
touchring
17th November 2007, 08:10 AM
We've been over this before. The IDNs were not part of the deal.
.
Oh ya, i remembered. :o
Rubber Duck
17th November 2007, 08:41 AM
It depends on how hard they would make the process - applications, sunrise periods, pre-registration fees, residency rules, etc. The competition was bad enough in November 2000. Unless you've got some kind of inside help or secrets, I'd image getting to some of the top-tier names would be futile.
Yes, and the thing you are forgetting is that if you are talking about new organisations with no obvious claim on extension that are contentious, it is going to take forever. ccTLD aliasing should be the easiest followed by existing gTLD aliasing. Everything else is going to take time and could get very messy. There would be only one Arabic dot com wannabee, there will be hundreds!
touchring
17th November 2007, 08:45 AM
Yes, and the thing you are forgetting is that if you are talking about new organisations with no obvious claim on extension that are contentious, it is going to take forever. ccTLD aliasing should be the easiest followed by existing gTLD aliasing. Everything else is going to take time and could get very messy. There would be only one Arabic dot com wannabee, there will be hundreds!
The ideal scenario for us will be for the new gTLD to hold back for as long as possible while IE7 establishes itself, and then come all at once? hundreds of gTLD will throw speculators into chaos and they end up preferring idn.com! :o
Rubber Duck
17th November 2007, 08:56 AM
There is going to be no requirement for any one to create chaos. :p
jacksonm
17th November 2007, 08:58 AM
There would be only one Arabic dot com wannabee, there will be hundreds!
Yes and nothing divides the Arabic world more than one of their own controlling access to a resource. The only way to bring them together is through a third-party medium which they have no control over - dot com and dot net.
I am getting search traffic to several of my Arabic sites which are tracked with analytics, where the search term is an IDN.com itself. The problem with Arabic websites is that there are tens of websites using ascii transliterated variations for any popular Arabic word, and who the hell can remember which one of those is the one they want? So what do they do? They search for the term in Arabic with the .com extension prepended! Naturally, my site is the best match :-)
PS: haven't seen any searches for IDN.net yet, either...
.
Fka200
17th November 2007, 09:09 AM
PS: haven't seen any searches for IDN.net yet, either...
.
Really? I get more searches to IDN.net than IDN.com...
jacksonm
17th November 2007, 09:13 AM
Really? I get more searches to IDN.net than IDN.com...
You mean where the search term which was used to arrive to your site was actually an IDN.net in Arabic? What do you own, Al Jazeera?
And how are you discovering this info, with google analytics or what? The thing I don't like about ND stats is that they don't provide you with this information.
.
Fka200
17th November 2007, 09:15 AM
You mean where the search term which was used to arrive to your site was actually an IDN.net in Arabic? What do you own, Al Jazeera?
And how are you discovering this info, with google analytics or what? The thing I don't like about ND stats is that they don't provide you with this information.
.
I think I learned the trick from RD where you put the Analytics code in the meta description with the forward @ domainsite.
jacksonm
17th November 2007, 09:18 AM
I think I learned the trick from RD where you put the Analytics code in the meta description with the forward @ domainsite.
Can you post an example here, please? I was not aware of this.
.
idnowner
17th November 2007, 03:53 PM
That being the case, how did TDC end up with so many of them?
All I know is that I didn't have any special inside info or any special methods, other than registering through the pre-reg queues at a couple of registrars in November 2000, and then picking up some of the best ones that dropped in early 2001.
I know some people in this forum were picking up some incredible names, when they dropped between 2003 and 2006, when the original registrants gave up on them and quit paying their renewals.
Rubber Duck
17th November 2007, 04:00 PM
Many languages didn't even need to drop. It was only really Korean, Japanese and Chinese that got registered in any numbers in the first place. Everything else was given zero credibility, forgetting Latins again of course.
touchring
17th November 2007, 06:52 PM
All I know is that I didn't have any special inside info or any special methods, other than registering through the pre-reg queues at a couple of registrars in November 2000, and then picking up some of the best ones that dropped in early 2001.
I know some people in this forum were picking up some incredible names, when they dropped between 2003 and 2006, when the original registrants gave up on them and quit paying their renewals.
Yes, the good old days before register.com started keeping IDN when the original registrants stopped renewing. Early this year, i noticed they kept all IDNs, even typos and names that won't have traffic. Even Name LLC is into the game.
IDNCowboy
17th November 2007, 09:25 PM
Even Name LLC is into the game.
Kinda rude they backstab IDNers who have been regging thousands of these IDNs on a trial basis not knowing the outcome of them... It's extra revenue for them.
bwhhisc
17th November 2007, 10:29 PM
Kinda rude they backstab IDNers who have been regging thousands of these IDNs on a trial basis not knowing the outcome of them... It's extra revenue for them.
Maybe they do know the outcome...
sarcle
19th November 2007, 02:57 AM
When the market says so...... I love his new catch-phrase.
There are many Asian sites that exclusively use idn or idn and an ascii equivalent. Do a search through the serps and many sites even though they don't even own the idn are using (idn.com) in their title pages to get higher serp rankings. This will and IS sticking in the minds of the average surfer reading the serp results and they will try to type these domains in. Good news either way.
Problem is you can talk until you are blue in the face about this and prove your traffic/revenue and serp rankings and people like him will still turn a blind eye to what is actually happening.
But whatever; this is a broken record and what we have been talking and telling everyone about for going on 3 years here.
touchring
19th November 2007, 03:56 AM
Maybe they do know the outcome...
Of cos they know, when you register a name and forget to park, they get the traffic. They hell know how much more traffic newly registered IDNs get vs a vs those crappy ASCIIs.
I suspect they get at least a few grand in PPC a month from unparked IDNs.
Rubber Duck
19th November 2007, 05:18 AM
Well I disagree with Rick on that one, dot Mobi being a case in point, but I have decided to draw a line under this feud with Rick and attempt to do a little fence mending. The spat with Jay made me realise how futile it all was, and I ended up feeling a bits sorry for the guy. Everybody has the right to feel hurt when accused of things they didn't do, and I have come to realise, however wrong Rick is about IDN, he simply shares a mind set with much of the rest of the population of the US. If he has a lack of understanding of cultural issues, then we must blame the system not the individual.
jacksonm
19th November 2007, 07:25 AM
If he has a lack of understanding of cultural issues, then we must blame the system not the individual.
This is business and a very successful domain businessman like himself simply can not be oblivious to the value of IDNs. I suspect that he understands that a big chunk of traffic to particular domains of his comes from outside of the US and that when IDNs take off he will start to lose this. One way to delay the inevitable is to spread FUD and try to acquire in stealth.
.
touchring
19th November 2007, 07:38 AM
This is business and a very successful domain businessman like himself simply can not be oblivious to the value of IDNs. I suspect that he understands that a big chunk of traffic to particular domains of his comes from outside of the US and that when IDNs take off he will start to lose this. One way to delay the inevitable is to spread FUD and try to acquire in stealth.
.
Possible, i'm starting to see a lot of anonymous whois in moniker, even for average names, can't believe any of us here will spend an additional $1 for that!
burnsinternet
19th November 2007, 07:41 AM
Possible, i'm starting to see a lot of anonymous whois in moniker, even for average names, can't believe any of us here will spend an additional $1 for that!
I don't know why that cracked me up, but.. so true! Most of us will not.
Fka200
19th November 2007, 07:41 AM
Possible, i'm starting to see a lot of anonymous whois in moniker, even for average names, can't believe any of us here will spend an additional $1 for that!
Ran into a lot of those lately. A lot of latin IDNs.
Rubber Duck
19th November 2007, 07:54 AM
Ran into a lot of those lately. A lot of latin IDNs.
If the established ASCII crowd make a move into IDN it will be tentatively into Latins. Probably totally the wrong approach, but then their track record on IDN has been appalling, so this is just what you would expect.
In terms of domain whois, they will be cautious as no doubt they feel they as ASCII owners have rights over anything that can be construed as a typo of any transliteration or translation they can think of.
Fka200
19th November 2007, 07:56 AM
Well I've ran into a lot with privacy but regs in 2005... not newcommers IMO, unless purchased from the secondary market.
touchring
19th November 2007, 08:00 AM
unless purchased from the secondary market.
bulls eye.
average names + generics + anonymous whois
= something to hide.
i believe there are thousands of such anonymous names out there.
there will be another PR upheaval again if we happen to discover that some big domainer accumulating idns while they publicly belittle them.
Fka200
19th November 2007, 08:04 AM
bulls eye.
Exactly what I thought when I ran into them. The dates were too off on some of them. If I have nothing to do this week, I'll try hard to go back and find some of them. Let me see if I can dig anything up right now.
eletrodomésticos.com
that's the only one i could find.
jacksonm
19th November 2007, 08:51 AM
there will be another PR upheaval again if we happen to discover that some big domainer accumulating idns while they publicly belittle them.
I will be keeping my eye out for this!
.
Rubber Duck
19th November 2007, 09:06 AM
I will be keeping my eye out for this!
.
Whilst any such information would be interesting, I have to say that I feel the Ignorance being displayed it entirely genuine. I believe that if they knew more there would be tell tail hints in their comments that they know more. Obviously, if Jay is telling other how to do it, he has been registering for a while, but I suspect his selections beggar belief!
Olney
19th November 2007, 09:30 AM
You'd be surprised on how much more members know than others about IDNs...
Not investing in IDNs is not belittling it, & admitting it's not for domainers who already have a healthy cash flow is not really a hindrance to the market.
sarcle
19th November 2007, 10:10 PM
Well I disagree with Rick on that one, dot Mobi being a case in point, but I have decided to draw a line under this feud with Rick and attempt to do a little fence mending. The spat with Jay made me realise how futile it all was, and I ended up feeling a bits sorry for the guy. Everybody has the right to feel hurt when accused of things they didn't do, and I have come to realise, however wrong Rick is about IDN, he simply shares a mind set with much of the rest of the population of the US. If he has a lack of understanding of cultural issues, then we must blame the system not the individual.
Not accusing anyone of anything. But when invested in something; lets say Ascii domains; where a new technology comes along; i.e, IDN; and could possibly hurt your bottom line you can and do have the potential to "make things up." Even when confronted with facts. Which we have seen in the past.
I don't really care personally what anyone invests in. I'm invested in IDN because these domains just make sense. And anyone that says these domains don't needs a serious psych exam to believe a native Russian speaker (for example) will JUST know all english words and meanings.
Rubber Duck
19th November 2007, 10:27 PM
Well the point is you are not going to convince them before you don't need to convince anyone. Why get stressed out about it?
yanni
19th November 2007, 10:36 PM
The only way to "convince" anyone (if you care to do that} is by showing "traffic/revenue" and/or "domain sales reports".
Money doesn't follow logic, it simply follows money.
Rubber Duck
19th November 2007, 10:38 PM
The only way to "convince" anyone (if you care to do that} is by showing "traffic/revenue" and/or "domain sales reports".
Money doesn't follow logic, it simply follows money.
When we have our own money, we won't be interested in theirs anyway!
sarcle
19th November 2007, 10:47 PM
\Why get stressed out about it?
I'm not stressed about what a dinosaur has to say. I couldn't give a rat's ass what this one person thinks. An ignorant American that can't see the forest for the trees. What I'm sick of is the kiss ass rhetoric to a fossil that has lost his touch in the WWW.
The only thing I'm stressed about is the world-wide adoption of an IDN enabled browser. Which we should all be pissed about. This "period" is what is killing all of our bottom line. What happend to the AU to all the countries that was supposed to happen last year? MS doesn't care. Firefox isn't a threat in the counties we need it to be.
Personally I'm doing well as I see many people are. Hell I may even throw up a single alphabetical sale just for kicks.
To each their own but I don't forget who did and said what. And I'm still waiting for that apology.
Rubber Duck
19th November 2007, 10:53 PM
Don't worry about IE 7. There is a battle royal going on in Russia over browsers. Opera seem to have a neck out in front from what I have seen. And still no ccTLD competition!
Bottom line is me and thee are sitting pretty, whilst those that are heavily focused on Japan are going to be pretty much hamstrung, when we start strutting our stuff.
You still couldn't sell a Russian domain on here for love nor money. It is not only the ASCII mob that walk around in a full Burkah!
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