Why

[555]

At this point in time, If you had to choose 1 reason, what is the main reason the vast majority of domainers choose to ignore idn domains?
From domainers that hold pure generics to domainers that cant get enough of nnnnnnn.com's.
TRY and remain objective.

[Explorer]

The temporary lack of positive group thinking about IDNs.

[Rubber Duck]

The lack of positive group thinking about IDNs.

More like a total incapacity to think outside the box!

[markits]

More like a total incapacity to think outside the box!
That's it!

[555]

More like a total incapacity to think outside the box!

That is no doubt the easiest reasoning for that. It may also be the right one but i don't think it's that simple. Far from.

[gammascalper]

Lack of browser support would be my guess.

[yanni]

No money in idn atm + the uncertainty of things.

Besides the fact that the majority do not know they even exist.

[Rubber Duck]

That is no doubt the easiest reasoning for that. It may also be the right one but i don't think it's that simple. Far from.

Well those that did think outside of the box, and really there were not that many don't need to. Most just tried to jump on the bandwagon. And quite a few of these have been moderately successful. Well, the rest are just total no-hopers that try to mimic the money. The problem is that by the time the business model is there for all to copy, it is largely already spent. If you are going to pick up the baton and run with it ,you need an angle. The dot Mobi crowd understood that, they just didn't do their research and all jumped on the wrong bloody train.

[camarro]

What's the big mistery here?
no traffic, no proven revenue,that's it.
there are exceptions, but that's just what they are.
domainers aren´t so different than other investors, they're risk adverse, the few that dont mind the risks are already here and like in other areas of business will cash in big if the assets they've invested in proven valuable in the future.

[Rubber Duck]

What's the big mistery here?
no traffic, no proven revenue,that's it.
there are exceptions, but that's just what they are.
domainers aren´t so different than other investors, they're risk adverse, the few that dont mind the risks are already here and like in other areas of business will cash in big if the assets they've invested in proven valuable in the future.

Don't kid yourself, they are already proving themselves.

Japan may be a busted flush, but Japan is not where it is at right now.

Frankly, I could careless if Japan stays busted for a while.

[Explorer]

What's the big mistery here?
no traffic, no proven revenue,that's it.

How much traffic/revenue is in the nnnn.com?

[alexd]

I think there isn't really 1 single reason for this. It is a combination of many factors. Money, translations, are they too late to jump onboard, etc.

Some people are leaders, others are followers, and it seems that many such "leaders" give a negative impact about IDNs, thus influencing the "followers" to have the same impression of them.

Thank God I have never been one to follow others around like a sheep !!

[rhys]

What's the big mistery here?
no traffic, no proven revenue,that's it.
there are exceptions, but that's just what they are.
domainers aren´t so different than other investors, they're risk adverse, the few that dont mind the risks are already here and like in other areas of business will cash in big if the assets they've invested in proven valuable in the future.

This also probably applies to 75% of the domains that most domainers hold as well. So while it makes sense, it cannot be the reason.

Personally, I believe the argument for IDNs is too nuanced for most domainers to absorb without proof. Many things about it are foreign - the concept of language and script and translation and the fact that English is not simple to users if you don't speak English first. The fact that the browser penetration is still too low as well no doubt.

[Rubber Duck]

How much traffic/revenue is in the nnnn.com?

NNNNothing!

I think there isn't really 1 single reason for this. It is a combination of many factors. Money, translations, are they too late to jump onboard, etc.

Some people are leaders, others are followers, and it seems that many such "leaders" give a negative impact about IDNs, thus influencing the "followers" to have the same impression of them.

Thank God I have never been one to follow others around like a sheep !!

They don't follow like sheep, they are being skilfully herded!

[alexd]

I can't figure out the nnnnn or lllll .com combinations that people out there register. OK, so LLL.com are all gone, and sell for at least $1000 each.

But LLLLL.com or NNNNN.com ??? Why ???
That should be the real question to this thread ??

Why do people invest in NNNN.com rather than IDNs ??

[Rubber Duck]

I can't figure out the nnnnn or lllll .com combinations that people out there register. OK, so LLL.com are all gone, and sell for at least $1000 each.

But LLLLL.com or NNNNN.com ??? Why ???
That should be the real question to this thread ??

Why do people invest in NNNN.com rather than IDNs ??

Because they cannot do the f*cking Math!

[bwhhisc]

Thank God I have never been one to follow others around like a sheep !!

LOL,
Watch that a few sheep jokes don't come zinging back your way. :p

[alexd]

LOL,
Watch that a few sheep jokes don't come zinging back your way. :p

Being a quarter Welsh - I am used to them ;)

[Rubber Duck]

LOL,
Watch that a few sheep jokes don't come zinging back your way. :p

Perhaps IDNers are just Domainers that have lost their Wellies!

[camarro]

How much traffic/revenue is in the nnnn.com?

that´s not the point.
ascii is a proven market. idn´s are not, and will not be until traffic\revenue rises.
i´m talking real traffic here, i think all of us understand that.
show me an idn that receives 10% traffic of his ascii equivalent, geo, brandables,
adult, whatever. it just doesn't happen right now. we're all hoping for that and mutch more, but most wont take the risk (or grab the opportunity).

[domainstosell]

I can see some logic in the NNNNN.coms, as most are US ZIP codes, so you could build a geo/portal site around those. But you're right, now I even see people regging L-LL.coms and LL-L.coms and counting them down. I don't get it...

[bwhhisc]

Being a quarter Welsh - I am used to them ;)
Ah, the old "why don't kilts have zippers" joke. LOL

[Rubber Duck]

that´s not the point.
ascii is a proven market. idn´s are not, and will not be until traffic\revenue rises.
i´m talking real traffic here, i think all of us understand that.
show me an idn that receives 10% traffic of his ascii equivalent, geo, brandables,
adult, whatever. it just doesn't happen right now. we're all hoping for that and mutch more, but most wont take the risk (or grab the opportunity).

And a lot will not get enough of stake early enough to even build a picture of what is happening.

My biggest fear was that Japanese would take off early and the revenues derived would allow their owners to trample all the other languages. Of course that should have already happened with English. Perhaps we should rejoice in their ignorance.

[g]

Why do people invest in NNNN.com rather than IDNs ??

Language barrier and lack of international brandability

[yanni]

How much traffic/revenue is in the nnnn.com?

There's an active after-market for these, isn't there?

[jacksonm]

show me an idn that receives 10% traffic of his ascii equivalent, geo, brandables,adult, whatever. it just doesn't happen right now.


Are you talking about search traffic or type-in traffic?

.

[L@@K]

"Why ?"
Not enough idn developped, so no evidence an idn can beat an ascii in GG, so no need to invest in them.

Put your idn number 1 on GG, and you'll create the need.

[phio]

There is alot at stake for the ascii folks. Last night I was researching spanish adult idns. I picked up a few new regs...but in my research I was more than a little bewildered to see the Huge amount of ascii domains thrown together to make some semblence of a spanish adult name. There were thousands of them, all pretty makeshift with improper spelling and prefixes. I had to chuckle because some of them were really lame. The market is flooded with them, all pointing to the same sort of blog/affiliate sites. Granted some are making money with these sites. I think that they feel that unaccented spanish has already been accepted, and perhaps they are correct to some extent. I think that spanish, french and brazilians will find some relief in accented websites, but the real relief will come with the asiatic languages as well as arabic. I think, (not sure though) that since the ascii'ers have flooded the market with non accented latin, they feel that their saturation is proof that they are on top. So some have a sense of arrogance in regards to IDNs.
The regging of garbage domains is another issue. LLLL.com and LL-L.com can make sense sometimes, but soon it will only make sense for the english speaking world.

[Rubber Duck]

Language barrier and lack of international brandability

Yes, but the International Brandability is bollocks. Sony, Toyota and Panasonic are probably the only truly global brands. Coca Cola is represented in many different ways throughout the World.

This is part of the problem. Only the elite domainers are making big Type-in. The others are scratching a living doing "development" for lack of a better word, and most of them can only do that in English.

There is alot at stake for the ascii folks. Last night I was researching spanish adult idns. I picked up a few new regs...but in my research I was more than a little bewildered to see the Huge amount of ascii domains thrown together to make some semblence of a spanish adult name. There were thousands of them, all pretty makeshift with improper spelling and prefixes. I had to chuckle because some of them were really lame. The market is flooded with them, all pointing to the same sort of blog/affiliate sites. Granted some are making money with these sites. I think that they feel that unaccented spanish has already been accepted, and perhaps they are correct to some extent. I think that spanish, french and brazilians will find some relief in accented websites, but the real relief will come with the asiatic languages as well as arabic. I think, (not sure though) that since the ascii'ers have flooded the market with non accented latin, they feel that their saturation is proof that they are on top. So some have a sense of arrogance in regards to IDNs.
The regging of garbage domains is another issue. LLLL.com and LL-L.com can make sense sometimes, but soon it will only make sense for the english speaking world.

[jacksonm]

OK, I'll give you some small data for one IDN minisite of mine.


Past 30 days
------------------
13968 visits
$211.42 revenue



That seems ok to me. Not great, but ok. I've got a few more sites as well.

.

[thefabfive]

I believe its the risk of IDN TLDs. Many think these will overshadow .com and .net and dominate the market.

[Explorer]

that´s not the point.
ascii is a proven market. idn´s are not

If IDNs were a proven market, we wouldn't have this discussion, would we?

[bwhhisc]

OK, I'll give you some small data for one IDN minisite of mine.
Past 30 days
------------------
13968 visits
$211.42 revenue


Very nice! Congrats.

[clipper]

Past 30 days
------------------
13968 visits
$211.42 revenue


This explains it all: $0.015 per visitor.

IMO, Domainers do not exist in a vacuum; they rely on developers and advertising networks, which, at the moment, are not developed enough to attract many domainers.

I applaud your efforts, MJ, and hope to duplicate them; but the 1.5¢ visitor isn't going to open the floodgates.

[sarcle]

no traffic, no proven revenue,that's it.


Then please explain the .mobi selling for so much; please.

[jacksonm]

This explains it all: $0.015 per visitor.

IMO, Domainers do not exist in a vacuum; they rely on developers and advertising networks, which, at the moment, are not developed enough to attract many domainers.

I applaud your efforts, MJ, and hope to duplicate them; but the 1.5¢ visitor isn't going to open the floodgates.


I do not rely on developers, but I do rely on advertising networks at the moment. This site is more of a leads based site, though, and I will very likely go to a direct advertising model in the future.

But this site is no different than ascii IMO. If I mispelled the domain name using only ascii characters, it would probably get less traffic and make less money because less people might click it from the search results and it may not rank as easily in Google. But that's really just speculation...

.

[mulligan]

domainers aren´t so different than other investors, they're risk adverse,

Disagree .. train is leaving the station .. get on or wait for the NNNNNNNNNN.com bubble

The temporary lack of positive group thinking about IDNs.

I think it's a bit more than than .. most Americans haven't ever even been out of their home country and so it stands to reason they just 'don't get it' .. (apart from thr occasional exception' ... 'we speak "american" after all so why shouldn't everyone else?'

[sarcle]

I think it's a bit more than than .. most Americans haven't ever even been out of their home country and so it stands to reason they just 'don't get it' .. (apart from thr occasional exception' ... 'we speak "american" after all so why shouldn't everyone else?'

I'd agree with this. Traveling in Europe to another country is like traveling to another state in the US.

Hell, many people think that going to the tourist district in Tijuana is traveling and experiencing culture. Most wouldn't even walk a block from it. :eek:

[alpha]

first of all, I applaud Michael for raising the topic, after all if you don't look yourself in the mirror and ask this question then you're no better than those that are often accused of having blinkers on.

What's the big mistery here?
no traffic, no proven revenue, that's it.
there are exceptions, but that's just what they are.
domainers aren´t so different than other investors, they're risk adverse

If you had asked me this question over 2 years ago, i would have agreed. But I don't think this reasoning holds water now. Let me tell you why..

First of all, I am a believer that if the keyword is toptoptop then the extn is almost irrelevant (of course there’s a pecking order but in most cases its worth the regfee) and so is the absence of any traffic today. So be it .mobi or .asia or a nnnnn.com that is a zip code of New York - I can see immediate value. all that is a no-brainer to me.

but it doesn't stop there, as we know.

the entire dictionary in .mobi has been wiped out.
.asia will more often likely be wiped out too
and as for the nnnnn phenomena, you only have to look at that NP thread to see what’s going on, they are being wiped out in the thousands.. and not zip codes, they are long gone, people are regging based on what the nnnnn would spell according to letters/numbers on a phone keypad - and not toptotptop terms either, random words or combos of random words.

There's even talk of what is a primary nnnnn, people are actively avoiding the number 4 because it's "bad luck" in China. So these people are aware of the greater world and their culture.
Soon they will be moving on to foreign spelt words on the phone keypad - but still they choose this over IDN.

My reasoning is of course biased because I have no n,nn,nnn,nnnn,nnnnn,nnnnnnn etc and do have IDN's.. but i'm trying to understand, but i really for the life of me cannot.

it's also impossible for all these people to be universally stupid - so wtf is it with the aversion to IDN, how can they be seen as a runner up to regging a nnnnn that spells “myhat”. Heck, if given the opportunity, I wouldn’t reg “myhat.com” anyway.

And back to the quote above, of course these reg’s we’re seeing are all speculative/risky. There’s no traffic/revenue/sales history to speak of.

Someone help me out here…

[mulligan]

It's all about 'creating the market' ... 'Create' the market and you will attract buyers .. flowers.mobi anyone?

On a side note .. I have reasonable domains and the reg fee was worth the risk .. renewals are also worth the risk .. for fucks sake ... where else can you dump 7 or 8 dollars and wait for the buyer to turn up with multiple returns on your investment? .. Ok .. so it may take some time .. a few years of renewals .. but you think someone is not gonna 'come a hunting' at some point down the line?

If you want to cash out now and move on

Contact me with your list please ... :)


As for domainers in general .. and don't take this the wrong way ... a bigger bunch of morons I have yet to meet .. it's mostly fucking idiots (with the occasional 'clued in one') who are into the 'get rich quick' scheme who can't see beyond the the next $15 paypal for some shitty Iamamoronicdomainer.com

Ok .. rant over

[thefabfive]

I think it's also the domainer-to-domainer market that encourages the hype of these odd combinations (L-LL, LL-L, LLLL.net, L-L-L). I would be surprised if there are many end-user sales for these domains, but the hype continues because of a self-fulfilling illusion of rarity. It is clearly a bubble market and when the music stops, those domainers left holding tons of these will not be happy. The emphasis has shifted from traffic to novelty among the novice domainers.

With the increases in traffic that I'm sure many of us are seeing, I have no doubt this is an investment wave worth riding. There are still a few potential obstacles, but a well diversified portfolio should be fine regardless.

[touchring]

I think it's a bit more than than .. most Americans haven't ever even been out of their home country and so it stands to reason they just 'don't get it' .. (apart from thr occasional exception' ... 'we speak "american" after all so why shouldn't everyone else?'


If you come to Asia, I suggest making a trip to Macau, and the Venetian - take a look at the world's biggest casino, 500,000 sq ft of it, filled with people to full capacity.

[jose]

At this point in time, If you had to choose 1 reason, what is the main reason the vast majority of domainers choose to ignore idn domains?
From domainers that hold pure generics to domainers that cant get enough of nnnnnnn.com's.
TRY and remain objective.


NO,NO,NO. I know the *real* why!

Because they could not do with IDN what they did with .mobi or .asia!
IDNs slipped through their fingers, and are now on the hands of the small fishes.
Big sharks don't want to make us rich.

I don't give a f*. Most of mine do very well parked and rock on SERPS when developed, lol. Don't need them. LOL

[Rubber Duck]

Absolutely right, and whether people like it or not dot Mobi and dot Asia are novelty extension that will gain no permanent traction. Domainer investment and development does not drive the market. That is done by huge corporations spending big buck on advertising.

I think it's also the domainer-to-domainer market that encourages the hype of these odd combinations (L-LL, LL-L, LLLL.net, L-L-L). I would be surprised if there are many end-user sales for these domains, but the hype continues because of a self-fulfilling illusion of rarity. It is clearly a bubble market and when the music stops, those domainers left holding tons of these will not be happy. The emphasis has shifted from traffic to novelty among the novice domainers.

With the increases in traffic that I'm sure many of us are seeing, I have no doubt this is an investment wave worth riding. There are still a few potential obstacles, but a well diversified portfolio should be fine regardless.

[touchring]

And back to the quote above, of course these reg’s we’re seeing are all speculative/risky. There’s no traffic/revenue/sales history to speak of.

Someone help me out here…


Speaking from a buyers point of view, we need to diversify into as many languages (major languages) as possible. Chinese, Russian, Russian, Latins.

Which languages will turn out to be big winners is not known to us. We can only speculate, we can't predict.

There's a lot of stereotypes out there, and the world is changing faster than we are aware of.

[Rubber Duck]

Do I detect the launching of an IDN Hedge Fund? :p

Speaking from a buyers point of view, we need to diversify into as many languages (major languages) as possible. Chinese, Russian, Russian, Latins.

Which languages will turn out to be big winners is not known to us. We can only speculate, we can't predict.

There's a lot of stereotypes out there, and the world is changing faster than we are aware of.

[touchring]

Do I detect the launching of an IDN Hedge Fund? :p


Investing in IDN is the same as any kind of high risk investment with super high returns.

Place a mini-stake into as many draws as possible. A lottery strike on any of the draws will recover all stakes plus a handsome profit.


American billionaire Sheldon Adelson announced that his $2.4 billion Venetian Macao Resort Hotel on Cotai will contribute much to launch a massive, concentrated resort area he calls the Cotai Strip, after its Las Vegas counterpart. Adelson formally stated his plans to open more hotels under brands such as Four Seasons, Sheraton and St. Regis. Ergo, his Las Vegas Sands (which ran the Sands Macao on the Macau peninsula), plans to invest $12 billion and build 20,000 hotel rooms on the Cotai Strip by 2010.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Venetian_Macao

[Rubber Duck]

Investing in IDN is the same as any kind of high risk investment with super high returns.

Place a mini-stake into as many draws as possible. A lottery strike on any of the draws will recover all stakes plus a handsome profit.

Yeah, but your hedge fund seems to be weighed down, using heavy yellow metal as ballast. An IDN portfolio should be like a racing dingy lifting out of the water, not like a Spanish Galleon laiden with gold.

[touchring]

With 75% of revenue coming from Macau, Las Vegas Sands Corp, might as well change its name to Macau Sands Corps.

$100 a person market, anyone?? :p


http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0000950142-08-000270&Type=HTML

Las Vegas Sands Corp. and Subsidiaries
Supplemental Data - Net Revenues by Resort
(In thousands)
(Unaudited)

Three Months Ended Twelve Months Ended
December 31, December 31,
2007 2006 2007 2006
-------------- -------------- -------------- --------------
The Venetian and The Palazzo $ 258,666 $ 290,356 $ 984,125 $ 959,700
Sands Macao 288,189 345,904 1,314,733 1,277,159
The Venetian Macao 500,405 - 650,496 -
Other Asia 1,213 - 1,213
-------------- -------------- -------------- --------------

$ 1,048,473 $ 636,260 $ 2,950,567 $ 2,236,859
============== ============== ============== ==============



Conclusion: We got a lot to learn.

[clipper]

Do I detect the launching of an IDN Hedge Fund? :p

Has this been discussed previously? I don't think it's as ludicrous as it may sound to those unfamiliar with the industry.

[touchring]

Has this been discussed previously? I don't think it's as ludicrous as it may sound to those unfamiliar with the industry.


Can we short idns? :p

[clipper]

Can we short idns? :p
In a market as illiquid as this, you can do just about anything, with the right amount of capital.

So, yes.

[Jay]

ascii is a proven market. idn´s are not, and will not be until traffic\revenue rises.

This I think puts it all into perspective:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=musica%2C+music%2C+m%C3%BAsica++&ctab=0&geo=ES&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

In Spain, people still prefer to type 'musica' over 'música' by a fair margin. In fact, they even prefer to type 'music' over 'música'. ASCII domainers will not come to the party until this disparity is reduced. Of course, by then, it will be too late.

To be an IDNer is to be a visionary.

[sunsei21]

ok first of all namepros does not represent anything in the domain market as far as markets or information its crap. alkdjfajfa.com and all that stuff that is where it starts and stops mainly so i guess thats y the nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.com argument comes from anyone worth their salt is not buying into it unless its a flip or too.

now a good question is why does everyone want care if or even everyone else to buy idns if they are such a good idea? if the money will come and all that Why does it matter i personally do not care who buys or does not buy but thats me

if u were to tell me "Thar's Gold in Them Thar Hills" i doubt i would sound the sirens and tell the whole world of the fact if so wouldnt more people own prime ascii from 99 and 2000?

I know lots of ascii domainers that think idns are a good idea and still dont feel the need to invest at this point and i dont so who am i to convince them

[Rubber Duck]

Jay,

This kind of argument is very valid for Latin IDNs, and it may be presumptive to assume that things will change much for some languages. These arguments are, however, meaningless for non-Latin scripts which is what IDN were created for in the first place, and where most of the domains will ultimately be registered. It was China, Japan and Korea that pioneered IDN, and it is reasonable to assume that is where the biggest markets will be. It also interesting to note that these countries have a high acceptance level of the dot Com extension.

This I think puts it all into perspective:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=musica%2C+music%2C+m%C3%BAsica++&ctab=0&geo=ES&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

In Spain, people still prefer to type 'musica' over 'música' by a fair margin. In fact, they even prefer to type 'music' over 'música'. ASCII domainers will not come to the party until this disparity is reduced. Of course, by then, it will be too late.

To be an IDNer is to be a visionary.

[jacksonm]

if u were to tell me "Thar's Gold in Them Thar Hills" i doubt i would sound the sirens and tell the whole world of the fact


IDNs are worthless, OK? They don't rank in Google, people can't type them, they don't get any traffic, and they don't earn any revenue. That's the official story, and I'm sticking to it. Hell, if you ask ICANN, they don't even exist yet.

I personally do not give a flying f*ck if the namepros crowd avoids IDN forever. I would rather scratch my ass than be flooded with $15 offers.

.

[thegenius1]

IDNs are worthless, OK? They don't rank in Google, people can't type them, they don't get any traffic, and they don't earn any revenue. That's the official story, and I'm sticking to it. Hell, if you ask ICANN, they don't even exist yet.

I personally do not give a flying f*ck if the namepros crowd avoids IDN forever. I would rather scratch my ass than be flooded with $15 offers.

.

Or their Famous Saying ... Reg Fee :)

[Jay]

These arguments are, however, meaningless for non-Latin scripts which is what IDN were created for in the first place, and where most of the domains will ultimately be registered.

Yep, non-Latins are a different kettle of fish. Here's one that kind of demonstrates that:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA%D0%B0%2C+music&ctab=0&geo=RU&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

I'd be interested to see a graph that compares terms for 'music' in Japanese (native term vs transliteration vs English language equivalent). I'd appreciate if someone could show me the graph for that.

[Rubber Duck]

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%E9%9F%B3%E6%A5%BD,+music&geo=jpn&ctab=0&sa=N

[L@@K]

About musica, it's worst in brazil...
http://www.google.com/trends?q=musica%2C+music%2C+m%C3%BAsica++&ctab=0&geo=BR&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

The pbm with examples is there are always a 'counter' example...
http://www.google.com/trends?q=beaute%2C+beaut%C3%A9&ctab=0&geo=FR&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

I still think dev is the key.
It's the only way to create the mkt.
If you put your idn number one, you create a buzz because most people (even in our industy) simply don't know about idn.
If they don't know, they can't type-in, so ascii domainers don't care about idn because idn is not a threat for them.
The same about webmasters & end users, the day they will see a idn number one, they will want one asap !

We need evidences we are right.
We need to create the mkt because it won't increase alone imo.
And for this I still think dev is the key, in all language, all countries

I well remember the day I posted a .ws was number one on gg.fr, the same day, a lot of ws were taken...

[jacksonm]

Yep, non-Latins are a different kettle of fish. Here's one that kind of demonstrates that:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA%D0%B0%2C+music&ctab=0&geo=RU&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

I'd be interested to see a graph that compares terms for 'music' in Japanese (native term vs transliteration vs English language equivalent). I'd appreciate if someone could show me the graph for that.


Yo, Jay, why did you change your handle?

.

[Jay]

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%E9%9F%B3%E6%A5%BD,+music&geo=jpn&ctab=0&sa=N

Thanks RD, but the link won't work for me for someone reason. Could you please put a screen shot up?

Yo, Jay, why did you change your handle?

Consistency MJ. Better earlier than later

[Rubber Duck]

Screwed it the first time tried to post as image. Can't do screen shots at work, but link is working. Here it is again:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%E9%9F%B3%E6%A5%BD,+music&geo=jpn&ctab=0&sa=N

[Jay]

Here it is again:

Nice. Here it is with the transliteration (I think 'onkyo' is correct):

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%E9%9F%B3%E6%A5%BD%2C+music%2C+onkyo&ctab=0&geo=JP&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

The pbm with examples is there are always a 'counter' example

It would be a worthwhile exercise to do this country by country with a reasonable sample of names. It might give us a good idea who is more likely to rely on native characters.

[touchring]

Yep, non-Latins are a different kettle of fish. Here's one that kind of demonstrates that:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA%D0%B0%2C+music&ctab=0&geo=RU&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

I'd be interested to see a graph that compares terms for 'music' in Japanese (native term vs transliteration vs English language equivalent). I'd appreciate if someone could show me the graph for that.


Here's a comparison in chinese:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%E9%9F%B3%E4%B9%90%2C+music%2C+yinyue&ctab=0&geo=CN&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

You may need a magnifiying glass to see whether the transliteration is bigger than the english version.

[Rubber Duck]

It is really quite unnecessary. Music is a word that most Japanese people will know. When you get away from the common well known English terms, English will nearly drop out of the reckoning altogether.

Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Russians do very little searching on English. Arabs and Hindu do more, not so much because they want to but because Internet penetration is low so you tend to have an English speaking elite working with an infrastructure that is struggling to properly support the native languages. As the internet develops these imbalances will gradually disappear. English will eventually more or less disappear from many environments. To understand how this works you need to have witnessed the evolution of those sections of the Internet that no longer use English much. Hell I can remember the first version of Dos that supported French back in about 1985. At the time most people thought it would never catch on. They all thought that computers could only work in English. I have to admit I was one of them. Later the same year I saw my first Arabic Keyboard. Things have been slow to get off the ground with IDN but only because it has been reliant on dullards like MS and ICANN.

Nice. Here it is with the transliteration (I think 'onkyo' is correct):

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%E9%9F%B3%E6%A5%BD%2C+music%2C+onkyo&ctab=0&geo=JP&geor=all&date=all&sort=0



It would be a worthwhile exercise to do this country by country with a reasonable sample of names. It might give us a good idea who is more likely to rely on native characters.

[Jay]

You may need a magnifiying glass to see whether the transliteration is bigger than the english version.

In fact, it barely registers when the native term is eliminated from the equation:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=music%2C+yinyue&ctab=0&geo=CN&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

It is really quite unnecessary. Music is a word that most Japanese people will know. When you get away from the common well known English terms, English will nearly drop out of the reckoning altogether.

This makes sense. But what surprises me a little is that transliterations seem to be used much less in East Asia than what I expected. I think transliterations must be mainly restricted to use with domain names and forums that haven't had native language support. It is a positive sign that IDNs will be well and truly embraced in East Asia.

you tend to have an English speaking elite working with an infrastructure that is struggling to properly support the native languages. As the internet develops these imbalances will gradually disappear.

And the more that the IT infrastructure extends into the regional areas in countries, the less grasp of English they will have as well.

[touchring]

Transliteration used in asia is primarily for inputting. People still prefer to read the Chinese or Kanji characters. That there is trends for the transliteration is because the user forgot to switch it to native character - sort of like a typo.

Also, take note of the Languages data on the right bottom half of the results page, it will indicate the OS language of the user doing the search. You will notice that for music searches, the OS is predominantly English, which means foreigners are doing the search from within the country.


This makes sense. But what surprises me a little is that transliterations seem to be used much less in East Asia than what I expected. I think transliterations must be mainly restricted to use with domain names and forums that haven't had native language support. It is a positive sign that IDNs will be well and truly embraced in East Asia.

[Rubber Duck]

Russia is apparently the best. It would seem that they have only just started handing out translated Landing Cards. Until recently they were in only Russian Cyrillic. Mind you apparently that is about as far as the concession goes! :)

In fact, it barely registers when the native term is eliminated from the equation:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=music%2C+yinyue&ctab=0&geo=CN&geor=all&date=all&sort=0



This makes sense. But what surprises me a little is that transliterations seem to be used much less in East Asia than what I expected. I think transliterations must be mainly restricted to use with domain names and forums that haven't had native language support. It is a positive sign that IDNs will be well and truly embraced in East Asia.



And the more that the IT infrastructure extends into the regional areas in countries, the less grasp of English they will have as well.

[getsuccess]

i am not able to understand that on which consern that thread have to be created?

[Jay]

Also, take note of the Languages data on the right bottom half of the results page

I see. I was wondering what 'language' meant. So it would seem then that foreign nationals are skewing the results.

Russia is apparently the best. It would seem that they have only just started handing out translated Landing Cards. Until recently they were in only Russian Cyrillic. Mind you apparently that is about as far as the concession goes!

Yes, I'd heard that tourists are left clueless when they visit Russia.

It will be interesting with the rest of Continental Europe to see which countries go towards IDN more. Given that many users seem competent enough with transliterations, I think it will be done more as a pride thing in their native language than out of necessity. I wonder if some countries (e.g., the French) place more value on their native characters than others (e.g., the Spanish)?

[davnin]

About musica, it's worst in brazil...
http://www.google.com/trends?q=musica%2C+music%2C+m%C3%BAsica++&ctab=0&geo=BR&geor=all&date=all&sort=0



musica is also an italian word and it means music

here is an example of an italian IDN preferred to the DN one
http://www.google.com/trends?q=universita%2C+universit%C3%A0&ctab=0&geo=all&geor=all&date=all&sort=0

[phio]

música 239 million google results

musica 217 million google results

Damn that's a lot of music a

[jose]

Musica/música is one of the best examples you can use to prove your theory.

It would not work with many other words, mainly with ã/ñ,ô,ç etc. which have a completely different sound than the unaccented versions.

Also, Google shows "musica" results when you seach for "música" and vice versa, so on a SEO point of view, you're on the same starting point with música.com and with musica.com

Last, but not least, música is the correct spelling and musica is a typo.
(of course, for the same language only)

[phio]

I put "música" in quotes and all I hear is música

[jose]

I put "música" in quotes and all I hear is música

Official Google info on this:

http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-search-results-may-differ-based-on.html

[jose]

I put "música" in quotes and all I hear is música

Official Google info on this:

http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-search-results-may-differ-based-on.html

[jose]

I put "música" in quotes and all I hear is música

Official Google info on this:

http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-search-results-may-differ-based-on.html

[alpha]

I can't figure out the nnnnn or lllll .com combinations that people out there register. OK, so LLL.com are all gone, and sell for at least $1000 each.

But LLLLL.com or NNNNN.com ??? Why ???
That should be the real question to this thread ??

Why do people invest in NNNN.com rather than IDNs ??

bump

http://www.domainmagnate.com/2009/03/05/thousands-of-nnnnncoms-will-drop-this-month/

[555]

The question is still relevant.
For the record, on 11/10/06 IDNForums.com had 852 members, 7,395 and 46,125 posts.
It is Members: 5,019 , Threads: 18,618 , Posts: 109,437 as of today (RD still top poster).

At this point in time, If you had to choose 1 reason, what is the main reason the vast majority of domainers choose to ignore idn domains?
From domainers that hold pure generics to domainers that cant get enough of nnnnnnn.com's.
TRY and remain objective.

[mulligan]

bump

http://www.domainmagnate.com/2009/03/05/thousands-of-nnnnncoms-will-drop-this-month/
Im sure there'll be a muppet or two waiting with bated breath to pick a few of them up

[Rubber Duck]

Because anything has to be better than wasting your money on IDN?

How about trying penny shares? I see Citibank has dropped below a dollar. Any takers?

[phio]

I'm still thinking about how Enron, is costing me an extra 200 bucks a month in electricity charges....somebody madeoff with billions

[mulligan]

...somebody madeoff with billions

madeoff .. or ... Madoff (sorry .. :))

[phio]

In terms of why IDNs aren't becoming mainstream....yet

I'll throw in my 2 cents.

A friend of mine (an american doctor) just came out with some kick ass vitamins. They're the pack a day kind. I mentioned to him that I thought it would be a good idea to begin thinking about selling them worldwide. He agreed. I suggested he change the languages on the boxes to the target country's home language, and he balked. He said ' I want this to stay an American product, and will only use english... besides half the world knows english anyways..."

my point is this, there are still lot's of domain investors out there with this kind of attitude. They want to continue to shove english down everyone's throat. While it was successful in the past, and there has been lots of money made...they really don't want to believe that another possibility besides english domains will work.

Also, I don't understand why the big boys, like G, Y, and M aren't pushing and promoting IDN.IDN. If any of the larger countries decide to create their own namespace and internet, it will cut them out of any possible profits from those countries. Profits which are now keeping them afloat. The US department of commerce also needs to recognize the value of multi lingual domains.

[Rubber Duck]

It is interesting to see how the American Government is making overtures all over the place, China, Europe, Russia, even Iran.

OK, it is a new administration, but the timing is also interesting because America has never been in so much shit. Funny, how you need your friends when you are up to arse in it.

Don't worry. When their World is are dropping apart due to their own arrogant strategies then and only then will they rethink things. But hell who cares, the good old US of A will be a circus side show by then.

[555]

#of members/Date
852 11/10/2006
5019 03/05/2009
5249 04/27/2009

So where are all the new members coming from?

[alpha]

#of members/Date
852 11/10/2006
5019 03/05/2009
5249 04/27/2009

So where are all the new members coming from?

IDN-ing is like wearing your wifes underwear; lots of people do it, but few admit to it.

[Ryu]

IDN-ing is like wearing your wifes underwear; lots of people do it, but few admit to it.

Your analogy is superb.

[seamo]

IDN-ing is like wearing your wifes underwear; lots of people do it, but few admit to it.
Lol! OMG! That is pure gold Alpha :lol:

So good, I wanna' qoute it as my sig (with your approval?)....

[Drewbert]

Your analogy is superb.

And in Alpha's case...

[555]

And in Alpha's case...
So realistic you can almost touch it.


Update:

#of members/Date
852 11/10/2006
5019 03/05/2009
5249 04/27/2009


5317 05/16/2009

[555]

Update: 5317 05/16/2009

5397 6/6/2009

0 Introductions.

[555]

25 days later, 100 additional new members. Damn bots.

[khurtsiya]

Upgrade vBulletin to 3.8.2 and enable antibot questions - I've not a single bot since I did this.

[andre]

Besides the fact that the majority do not know they even exist.

That is certainly my experience here in England. It is not just end users who do not know about IDNs but also Computer Professionals.

I figure it comes down to education and raising awareness. Not just education about IDNs but the whole area of internationalization of IT. IDNs are one part of the ongoing internationalization of IT.

Just reading some info on IDNs does not usually lead to an understanding of IDNs nor the significance of IDNs. But when I show someone IDNs and then actually type an IDN into the address bar of a browser then the understanding comes. It is going to take some time to educate the world.

BUT ... If a world famous celebrity were to have an IDN web address then suddenly the whole world would be talking about IDNs.

André 小山 Schappo
http://国际化域名.lboro.ac.uk/