IDN.IDN, anything to be concerned?

[TrafficDomainer]

Hi everyone,

I came accross the article below from DNjournal and wanted to ask you guys if anyone has any inside information about whether or not ICANN would eventually assign the right for IDN.IDN (ie. IDN.com (with the dot com in native script) to the current IDN.com,.net holders or would this be open for grab? I feel this is an important question because if such rights are not assigned to current IDN holders, then the values of these IDN domains we hold would be significantly diminished by the launch of IDN.IDN. Anyone?

Yours,

TrafficDomainer


Cover Story from DNJOurnal

Domain Roundtable 2006

Ram Mohan (Afilias) said the biggest problem for IDNs is “too many choices and too little comprehension.” While there are many issues still to be resolved, Mohan noted that it is only common sense that people will want to surf the web in their own languages.

According to Mr. Mohan’s presentation, some of the hurdles that still have to be cleared are whether someone who owns an ascii.ascii or an idn.ascii domain would get prior rights to an ascii.idn or idn.idn name. What kinds of dispute resolution policies will be required? Do packages of names have to be created or should the same name in different scripts be allowed to go to different places?

[Olney]

I'll put it like this.

I own Anime.com in Japanese
Will they ever have a right to my domain in native Japanese?
Simply put no.


Would car.com have a right to kuruma.com in Japanese?
or would it be cars.com?

What about the french translation of car?

English domains would have absolutely no bearing to a foreign equivalent. It wouldn't make any sense at all.

[bwhhisc]

With the system essentially in place, punycode and international agreements/disagreements hashed out over nearly a decade since first proposed, millions of registrations in place, IE7 ready to provide the backbone of the system worldwide.... all of the pieces are jockeying into place to make it happen. Basically the system is usable now...there just is no major traffic due to lack of awareness and not having IE7 in enough computers to make it work for the masses.

There are upcoming publicized "trials", and settling once and for all the speculation of phising and fraud that have been blown out of proportion for idns. Couple that with the slow pace of ICANN to get much done, the politics of the internet ownership and you have the sludge that has slowed the process.

I believe that IDNs will "catch on" in a big way (starting in Japan) when IE7 and VISTA hit, and they discover a "better" world of url domaining, its going to be hard to stop this train.

[TrafficDomainer]

Hi Olney,

Just to understand this better, I own the domain name ช็อปปิ้ง.com (shopping in Thai), would I automatically own ช็อปปิ้ง.คอม (ie shopping.com all in Thai) once ICANN makes it available or would this be open for grab or would I have the right to the .คอม but have to pay another registration fee for the equivalent extention in Thai?

I'll put it like this.

I own Anime.com in Japanese
Will they ever have a right to my domain in native Japanese?
Simply put no.


Would car.com have a right to kuruma.com in Japanese?
or would it be cars.com?

What about the french translation of car?

English domains would have absolutely no bearing to a foreign equivalent. It wouldn't make any sense at all.

[touchring]

I think the reality is no one knows for sure now as ICANN hasn't made the decision.

Having idn.idn is a major undertaking and i do not believe it can be decided or implemented quickly - btw, how long have they been arguing over .XXX?

[TrafficDomainer]

If this is up in the air, then we are all gambling at this point? Names of cities that recently got sold to the tune of $XX,XXX may or may not hold value then, depending on how this plays out?

I am quite new to this game so just want to understand a little more and make sure this is solid before I register more names. Anyone else with more information on this?

Thanks!

[blastfromthepast]

Think about it:

There are many, many, many, languages that you can register IDNs with.

Now, ICAAN has to approve, what, 20, 30, 40, 50 new top level .IDN domains? Each with specific rules too, so as to prevent (or not) the registration of жжж.คอม as well. That's a real issue. How fast have they been approving .XXX domains? Takes years of beaurocracy. It is almost unmanageable with the number of languages that need to be considered to create new .IDN top levels.

So, here comes in DNAME. Aliasing existing IDN.com to IDN.IDN by aliasing and keeping the existing .com. Makes sense? Yes. Simple? Yes. Works? Yes. Advance to Go and collect $20000.

[OldIDNer]

Yeah no one knows for sure. Personally I don't think the release of an IDN.IDN (.com) separate from IDN.com diminishes the .com that much. The saying .com is king exists for a reason and that is because everyone knows and is familiar with it. It is considered a top class extension by everyone and will always have value for this reason alone imo.

[Rubber Duck]

Hi Olney,

Just to understand this better, I own the domain name ช็อปปิ้ง.com (shopping in Thai), would I automatically own ช็อปปิ้ง.คอม (ie shopping.com all in Thai) once ICANN makes it available or would this be open for grab or would I have the right to the .คอม but have to pay another registration fee for the equivalent extention in Thai?

Everything that has been said would indicate that will automatically get it and that you will get it and that you won't have to pay again, but nothing is set in stone.

[thegenius1]

If this is up in the air, then we are all gambling at this point? Names of cities that recently got sold to the tune of $XX,XXX may or may not hold value then, depending on how this plays out?

I am quite new to this game so just want to understand a little more and make sure this is solid before I register more names. Anyone else with more information on this?

Thanks!

I have short common sense answer to youre statement ....

IDN.com Vs ENGLISH.com TO A NON-ENGLISH Speaker


Winner by Unanimous Decision!! IDN.com

[touchring]

Yes, it's a gambling situation, but not a lose all your stake gamble, especially when most of the people here registered hundreds or thousands of cheap generics at $7 each, and these will still work even if idn.idns are issued separately.

[sarcle]

Ram Mohan (Afilias) said the biggest problem for IDNs is “too many choices and too little comprehension.” While there are many issues still to be resolved, Mohan noted that it is only common sense that people will want to surf the web in their own languages.


I wouldn't be too concerned with someone from (Affilias) The only language they accept is German.

Come July when Dname (IDN.IDN) is tested live we should know a bunch more.

[domainguru]

I think no one knows for sure now.

Correct. The process of IDNing TLDs isn't that far along yet. What we do know is nicely summarized here:

http://www.icann.org/announcements/announcement-14mar06.htm

So ICANN will be starting testing 2 different IDN TLD solutions in July. From above page:

The technical test will include two approaches to the insertion of IDN records into the root zone of the DNS. These are:

* DNAME records - as defined in RFC 2672 DNAME provides an alias designation for an entire domain by mapping a new domain into another that already exists. For an existing TLD, this corresponds to the use of a punycode* string to provide an internationalized alias designation for that TLD using a DNAME record in the root zone.
* NS-records - permit the insertion an internationalized label in the root zone without the duplication of a pre-existing sub domain structure.


The DNAME solution is basically aliasing at the root zone level. So for Thailand, all .คอม domains would just get mapped to their .com equivalent during DNS calls. Hence the owner of the .com and the .คอม *must be* one and the same.

The NS-record solution is more complex, and if I read it right, allows for "real" IDN TLDs, outside existing ASCII TLDs and SLDs.

Now if ICANN decide the DNAME solution is far "better" than NS-record, their subsequent policy choice is really pretty much dictated by the aliasing technology i.e. allocate the IDN.IDN to the IDN.ASCII owner, and it wouldn't take long to implement.

If ICANN, however, decides that NS-records are "better or as good as" DNAME, god only knows what policies they could go for and how long they would take to decide on / implement. That's really the nightmare scenario. That both technical solutions have sufficient merits to take them forward into the policy-making process for IDN.IDN.

That's my reading of the current situation. If I misunderstand any (or all) of this, I'm sure Rubber Duck or someone else will jump into correct me :)

[touchring]

Think about it:

There are many, many, many, languages that you can register IDNs with.

Now, ICAAN has to approve, what, 20, 30, 40, 50 new top level .IDN domains? Each with specific rules too, so as to prevent (or not) the registration of жжж.คอม as well. That's a real issue. How fast have they been approving .XXX domains? Takes years of beaurocracy. It is almost unmanageable with the number of languages that need to be considered to create new .IDN top levels.

So, here comes in DNAME. Aliasing existing IDN.com to IDN.IDN by aliasing and keeping the existing .com. Makes sense? Yes. Simple? Yes. Works? Yes. Advance to Go and collect $20000.


DNAME definitely makes sense, but i'm not sure if monetary factors come in. If they can earn more money issuing new extensions, they might be tempted to do that.

[blastfromthepast]

DNAME definitely makes sense, but i'm not sure if monetary factors come in. If they can earn more money issuing new extensions, they might be tempted to do that.

They will go slow and in the mean time, домен.com will gain acceptance.

Do you worry about документ.doc? On Windows it still isn't mapped to .док!

[touchring]

They will go slow and in the mean time, домен.com will gain acceptance.

Do you worry about документ.doc? On Windows it still isn't mapped to .док!


I think it will take some time for them to decide, so the main threat is from ctld for languages like Russian. Whatever the outcome, it's not a zero sum game.

[thefabfive]

The NS-space option is further complicated by what .IDN extensions are created. Imagine China would receive a .IDN, Japan would get a .IDN, Russia would have to share it's .IDN with Ukraine, Bulgaria, etc, Spain, France, and most, if not all, latin based languages would NOT get a .IDN, Arabic countries would all have to share a .IDN, it goes on and on.

Does that sound like an elegant solution? How complicated would that be?

The DNAME solution is much more elegant in its simplicity. Hopefully, the testing will prove that.

[sarcle]

If they can earn more money issuing new extensions, they might be tempted to do that.

You have to think of how long new extensions take to get approved. Then you have to multiply that by most all the languages on earth, besides the romantic languages. And that's just for .com. Sounds like they want all the top level exts. in idn. .com, .net, .org, .info, .biz ect. We would be waiting until the next ice age. They are commited to getting this done by the end of the year and would not be possible any other route besides dname.

[domainguru]

You have to think of how long new extensions take to get approved. Then you have to multiply that by most all the languages on earth, besides the romantic languages. And that's just for .com. Sounds like they want all the top level exts. in idn. .com, .net, .org, .info, .biz ect. We would be waiting until the next ice age. They are commited to getting this done by the end of the year and would not be possible any other route besides dname.

Where have ICANN committed to getting this done by the end of the year? And to get "what" done exactly? If you are correct, then game, set, and match DNAME...

[touchring]

You have to think of how long new extensions take to get approved. Then you have to multiply that by most all the languages on earth, besides the romantic languages. And that's just for .com. Sounds like they want all the top level exts. in idn. .com, .net, .org, .info, .biz ect. We would be waiting until the next ice age. They are commited to getting this done by the end of the year and would not be possible any other route besides dname.


I think they will be arguing it over this like the way we do, so it will be stalemate. ;)

The main threat will come from ctlds.

I thought of another argument that calls for DNAME, .kom can be seen as a variant of .com.

Ultimately, only god knows their final decision.

[Rubber Duck]

Where have ICANN committed to getting this done by the end of the year? And to get "what" done exactly? If you are correct, then game, set, and match DNAME...

Even getting one additional registry up just to cover the Arabic Countries would take 5 years to implement. That is why Route 1 is the only acceptable solution.

[dabsi]

Refering to German experience; as they have introduced the IDN, the owner of haueser.de had to fight to get häuser.de also in .com ; lawers were happy.

I know only one case where the 'first right' is applied: that's Brasil, where only the owners of the ascii version were allowed to take the idn one.

But any how, if IDN-IDNs comes, I send you my arab portfolio as Christmas present.

You should have windows in arabic in order to understand the (probable?) new game (IDN.IDN)

DABSI

[touchring]

Refering to German experience; as they have introduced the IDN, the owner of haueser.de had to fight to get häuser.de also in .com ; lawers were happy.

I know only one case where the 'first right' is applied: that's Brasil, where only the owners of the ascii version were allowed to take the idn one.

But any how, if IDN-IDNs comes, I send you my arab portfolio as Christmas present.

You should have windows in arabic in order to understand the (probable?) new game (IDN.IDN)

DABSI


Ok, i'm first to claim this present! :p

[thefabfive]

You should have windows in arabic in order to understand the (probable?) new game (IDN.IDN)
If you're referring to the right to left writing - that's not really an issue is it?

[sakillll]

I send you my arab portfolio as Christmas present too.:)

[touchring]

I send you my arab portfolio as Christmas present too.:)

Wait a minute, do you know what you are talking about? This means 中文.网 <> 中文.NET....

[sarcle]

Where have ICANN committed to getting this done by the end of the year? And to get "what" done exactly? If you are correct, then game, set, and match DNAME...

Well, what I meant to say is ICANN doesn't have the luxury of time on their side anymore. And designating new exts. takes time. The whole "break-up of the internet" thing is China saying enough is enough waiting on the .com .net and .org to be aliased to IDN. If Icann doesn't have IDN.IDN mapped very soon China will do it themselves along with several other countries. China already has .cn mapped to .idn and it seems to be working fine for a nation of a billion people.

We will see come July what works well, but my money is on dname.

[sakillll]

Wait a minute, do you know what you are talking about? This means 中文.网 <> 中文.NET....
idn.idn future.

[dabsi]

If IDN.IDN comes I send you my arabic portfolio as christmas present.

You should use Windows in arabic in order to understand my statement; no Arab would use idn.com if he can use idn.idn or are you prepared to use ascii.idn ?

When you now a culture, you can forecast a lot.

DABSI

[touchring]

If IDN.IDN comes I send you my arabic portfolio as christmas present.

You should use Windows in arabic in order to understand my statement; no Arab would use idn.com if he can use idn.idn or are you prepared to use ascii.idn ?

When you now a culture, you can forecast a lot.

DABSI


It would vary from culture to culture, but i guess there's still some value to idn.com for Arabic, even now, we're earning from PPC, aren't we? Are you not earning from your Arabic names?

idn.idn future.

Yes, that's the future, but the future isn't far. We already have 中文.中国.

Frankly, before 1st March, when China announced resolving .中国, i didn't understand the impact of idn.idn. It takes some time to understand the impact because we have been using .com for so many years. So i quickly grabbed a few .公司 to spread my risk.

[Rubber Duck]

If IDN.IDN comes I send you my arabic portfolio as christmas present.

You should use Windows in arabic in order to understand my statement; no Arab would use idn.com if he can use idn.idn or are you prepared to use ascii.idn ?

When you now a culture, you can forecast a lot.

DABSI

Dabsi it not just familiarity with cultures that you need to predict the future, it is also some rational analysis.

IDN.IDN will be here by christmas, but there will be no new registeries. As it took 5 years to get dot EU of the ground, would you please explain how ther 200 odd registries that would be required for your vision of the future could conceivably be approved and launched in a little over six months.

Frankly your commentaries resembles a dried peas rattling around in an empty can.

[sarcle]

If IDN.IDN comes I send you my arabic portfolio as christmas present.


Who was this directed at? I'll go ahead and send you my domainsite # then.

[touchring]

Who was this directed at? I'll go ahead and send you my domainsite # then.

No fair, i'm ahead of you. :o

[sakillll]

Maybe his arab portfolio is empty too.

[sarcle]

No fair, i'm ahead of you. :o

Damn IT! Yes, fair is fair. Congrats Touchring on gaining some Arabic domains.

[Rubber Duck]

Damn IT! Yes, fair is fair. Congrats Touchring on gaining some Arabic domains.

Well, I think due to his love of all thing Arab, he should give the to G for this services to this Forum.

[TrafficDomainer]

Thank you so much guys. I really appreciate your replies. Didn't expect to get such quick replies in such a short time. This is a great forum indeed with active partipants sharing information and helping each other.

Kob Khun (Thank you)

[sarcle]

Well, I think due to his love of all thing Arab, he should give the to G for this services to this Forum.

Maybe the best thing is the forum gets them and they are auctioned off so the proceeds go to getting more features and keeping the forum active.

Don't worry Dabsi, we will hold you to it. :)

[bwhhisc]

Thank you so much guys. I really appreciate your replies. Didn't expect to get such quick replies in such a short time. This is a great forum indeed with active partipants sharing information and helping each other. Kob Khun (Thank you)

So did you make up an opinion about the path of idns, or feeling that you have found a bunch of crazies here who have convinced each other the sky is falling! (as they speculate on their early retirements!).

[burnsinternet]

I know only one case where the 'first right' is applied: that's Brasil, where only the owners of the ascii version were allowed to take the idn one.


Yikes! What does this mean for my Portuguese IDNs? :eek:

[gammascalper]

Congrats Touchring!

Dabsi you are a generous gentleman.

[blastfromthepast]

IDN.com without dname, without widespread use of IE7, are worth from $XXX to $XXXXX, now. That is an amazing return on an $8 investment.

[touchring]

Congrats Touchring!

Dabsi you are a generous gentleman.


It's true, Dabsi can be quite generous. ;)

[Rubber Duck]

IDN.com without dname, without widespread use of IE7, are worth from $XXX to $XXXXX, now. That is an amazing return on an $8 investment.

Counterfeiting gives you a lower ROI than IDN!!!

[bramiozo]

Think about it:

There are many, many, many, languages that you can register IDNs with.

Now, ICAAN has to approve, what, 20, 30, 40, 50 new top level .IDN domains? Each with specific rules too, so as to prevent (or not) the registration of жжж.คอม as well. That's a real issue. How fast have they been approving .XXX domains? Takes years of beaurocracy. It is almost unmanageable with the number of languages that need to be considered to create new .IDN top levels.

So, here comes in DNAME. Aliasing existing IDN.com to IDN.IDN by aliasing and keeping the existing .com. Makes sense? Yes. Simple? Yes. Works? Yes. Advance to Go and collect $20000.

That's the technical side and yes you're probably right in that respect but by the time idname is ready to be implemented there will be the problem that all the native initiatives have gained considerable momentum, millions of native registrants with millions of names who will have problems with the idname initiative, I am not sure whether the governments will let that pass.

It encompasses technical issues in the first place but the technical development is placed within the framework of a globalisation and the gritty political movements that go along with it.

ICANN will have to defuse the native initiatives before the momentum is gathered, if not, we will have to wait indefinitely.