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jseng
12th March 2013, 11:19 AM
This is James Seng (http://icannwiki.com/index.php/James_Seng). Yes, I am the guy that started this little mess called IDN. :)

Currently, I am the CEO of Zodiac (http://icannwiki.com/index.php/Zodiac), the largest IDN applicant from China. See http://www.zodiacregistry.com/

In the next couple of months, we hope to launch some of our Chinese new gTLDs and would be interested to see how we can work with some of you.

I would also welcome any feedback or suggestions you have for our operation.

I welcome you to leave your questions below.

Wot
12th March 2013, 12:01 PM
Welcome and good luck.

However,personally I see very little chance of many of the thousands of new gtlds having any success whatsoever.

squirrel
12th March 2013, 12:55 PM
Hi and welcome to IDNF

IDNer
12th March 2013, 01:33 PM
Welcome James,

Are you a Chinese?

tee1
12th March 2013, 02:21 PM
Hi James,
Welcome to IDNF. Great to have you here. We have a large number of members heavily invested in Chinese IDNs, .com, .net ect. While some members only invest in .com or .net others are more open to other extensions, so I believe you will find some interest here.

You found the right sub forum, so please keep us posted of your activities.

Again welcome!

Drewbert
12th March 2013, 02:26 PM
Nice to see you here James. Good luck with your IDN newGTLD's.

It's been a long time coming.

I think the new Chinese TLD's will do better than .asia

Well, they'd better!

Rubber Duck
12th March 2013, 05:54 PM
Hi James,

Your're a legend and I wish you well.

However, in investment terms I have to say I still firmly believe that IDN.com are the real deal.

I therefore think it is extremely unlikely that we will be investing in any New gTLDs in the shor-term other than Verisign Aliases of dot Com which we are fully expecting to be Grandfathered into.

bumblebee man
12th March 2013, 06:49 PM
Welcome to the forum.

domainguru
12th March 2013, 10:13 PM
Welcome James. From your avatar, you look far too young to have invented IDNs! Or maybe the photo is from the time of invention, not now :)

Just out of curiosity, did you expect IDNs to take this long to mature? Let's face it, in several aspects, they still aren't mature. In 2001, my biz partner said IDNs would be a 15-20 year project. I laughed then. I'm not laughing now. He got it right as far as I can see. Your thoughts?

blastfromthepast
12th March 2013, 10:49 PM
Do you have the droit?

bwhhisc
13th March 2013, 12:51 AM
Welcome James.....glad to have you here. You can see we have been keeping up with you on IDNForums since 2005. ;)
Are you also planning any IDN.com development? What about progress for E-mail with IDNs??

http://www.idnforums.com/forums/7319-chinese-idn-is-fetching-a-premium.html

http://www.idnforums.com/forums/11-idn-traffic-a-reality-in-japan.html

jseng
13th March 2013, 01:08 AM
Dear all

@Wot I agree :-) I think only a handful of them would be successful. Which is why we focus only China market TLD only. In the last couple of months, my team have been traveling across China to meet up all the major registrars. A handful have scorned at the idea of new gTLD but most of them are really excited about our Chinese TLD.

@IDNer Yes, I am a Chinese. Oversea born Chinese, but 100% Chinese. I live in Beijing now for a couple of years.

@Drewbert There are far more Chinese domains than .asia add together. And a lesser known fact. Even tho there are smaller number of Chinese .cn over English .cn, the margin from Chinese .cn is about 10x better than English .cn. At one stage, CNNIC is making more money from Chinese .cn than all the 10m English .cn names they have.

@Rubber Duck Of cos. dotcom will be the NYC in the domain world and for investing terms, I think that's still a pretty good bet. But there will be other "cities" that will bloom.

@domainguru A good friend of mine tells me I need to dedicate the rest of my life to this to make it happen. It took us 10 years to get from a proof of concept to .中国. I think I am going to spend the next 10 to make .网站 the .COM for Chinese.

@bwhhisc Thank you.

Avtal
13th March 2013, 01:27 AM
James,

Welcome and thanks for helping to invent IDNs!

One of the current barriers to IDNs is the lack of web applications that support them. For instance, gmail does not allow you to send email to IDN addresses. There are also problems with Twitter. (See discussions here (http://www.idnforums.com/forums/33249-root-cause.html) and here (http://www.idnforums.com/forums/33169-twitter-still-cant-deal-with-idns-properly-drop-me-out.html)).

Do you see any way of fixing this? For instance, are you following ICANN's Ad-Hoc ccNSO/GNSO Joint IDN Working Group (http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/active/jig)?

Avtal

jose
13th March 2013, 02:53 AM
Hello James, welcome on board.

I just have two questions:

. It took us 10 years to get from a proof of concept to .中国. I think I am going to spend the next 10 to make .网站 the .COM for Chinese.


1. Don't you think domain names will be irrelevant in 2023?

2. What makes you be so sure you can easily change the way Chinese read .com from .点看 to .网站?

Rubber Duck
13th March 2013, 04:38 AM
Hello James, welcome on board.

I just have two questions:




1. Don't you think domain names will be irrelevant in 2023?

2. What makes you be so sure you can easily change the way Chinese read .com from .点看 to .网站?


What stupid questions.

The man has bet his ass on the outcomes, so his opinions are obvious, and deserve respect.

jose
13th March 2013, 06:23 AM
What stupid questions.

The man has bet his ass on the outcomes, so his opinions are obvious, and deserve respect.

Forgive me all mighty Rubber Duck, owner of the holly and unquestionable truth on IDN domain names. We are all stupid inferior beings.

domainguru
13th March 2013, 06:54 AM
Hello James, welcome on board.

I just have two questions:


1. Don't you think domain names will be irrelevant in 2023?

2. What makes you be so sure you can easily change the way Chinese read .com from .点看 to .网站?


Come on Jose? Someone who says:

"A good friend of mine tells me I need to dedicate the rest of my life to this to make it happen. It took us 10 years to get from a proof of concept to .中国. I think I am going to spend the next 10 to make .网站 the .COM for Chinese."

And then you ask him "Don't you think domain names will be irrelevant in 2023", seriously?

It doesn't matter whether the guy is the dumbest or brightest guy on earth, he's given you his answer before you asked it. He wouldn't be dedicated his work life to this if he thought domains were going to be obsolete in 2023. You are brighter than that Jose .... or so I thought. I'm beginning to wonder now :no:

clipper
13th March 2013, 06:59 AM
Hello James and welcome.

Join Date: Dec 2012

You've come to the right place to learn about IDNs.;)

Even tho there are smaller number of Chinese .cn over English .cn, the margin from Chinese .cn is about 10x better than English .cn. At one stage, CNNIC is making more money from Chinese .cn than all the 10m English .cn names they have.

Interesting.

Any insight you have on Avtal's question regarding email and web applications would be worthwhile reading for all of us.

Thank you and best of luck.

Rubber Duck
13th March 2013, 07:46 AM
Forgive me all mighty Rubber Duck, owner of the holly and unquestionable truth on IDN domain names. We are all stupid inferior beings.

Jose,

Facebook has turned your head to Mulch.

Domains names are the portable address references of the internet. IP addresses can be recycled but they are not really moveable. Without a domain name system everytime you changed where your site was hosted, you would have to contact every visitor you ever had to give them a new URL and probably a new email address too.

If that is too complicated, then think of a domain a mobile phone number that is portable between not only phone devices as you upgrade but between carries. Without phone numbers you would need to ring the serial number on the phone.

So forget chatting on twatter or facebook, or even Marketing. Domains are not going anywhere because the Internet cannot function without IP Address Aliases which is what Domain Names are. They are not only more fundamental to the Internet than Facebook, but more than Google, Apple and Microsoft put together.

Rubber Duck
13th March 2013, 08:51 AM
To take this argument one step further. Consider the fate of DOS. Nobody uses it anymore. Of course they do! Windows is only a Dos overlay. And whatever referencing systems follow will only ever be an overlay to the existing Internet Referencing systems, which are just about evolving to the point where further development is unnecessary because their capacity is virtually infinite. And believe me it has taken a lot more than 10 years to achieve that, so they are not going to just junk it now.

In the future you may not overtly see domain names in use in every application, but it will be there like the sap in a tree just as binary code is. Facebook, however, is like those pesky adoration that go on a Christmas Tree. Actually probably like the old fashioned lights where you spent most of Christmas trying to find out which one was lose or had blown.

Ben
13th March 2013, 09:29 AM
To take this argument one step further. Consider the fate of DOS. Nobody uses it anymore. Of course they do! Windows is only a Dos overlay.

That hasn't been true for the last 10 years.

Rubber Duck
13th March 2013, 10:41 AM
That hasn't been true for the last 10 years.

Yes, perhaps that was an oversimplification but the source code really hasn't changed that much.

You can still breakout out of Windows and run DOS style commands.

alexd
13th March 2013, 10:46 AM
Welcome James - Nice to have you here !!

domainguru
13th March 2013, 12:10 PM
Yes, perhaps that was an oversimplification but the source code really hasn't changed that much.

You can still breakout out of Windows and run DOS style commands.

Yeah, that's just a separate program now though. Bad as Windows is, its not based on DOS anymore (which M$ stole anyway but we won't go there ..... )

Its not really the point. The point is that domain names have provided a great way to label places in "virtual space". Nothing comes even close, and there is nothing on the horizon either.

FB? Very popular, but hasn't exactly halted the increase in total worldwide domain registrations has it? Its a proprietary corner of the web. Companies use it for social marketing, along with Twitter, Google Plus, LinkedIn etc. Companies, unless totally idiotic, do not abandon their main website for FaceBook.

QR codes? Again, have their use, but what do they do? Provide info, including .... URL where websites can be found. A reinforcing technology not a disruptive one.

Ironically, the biggest danger to the domain biz is the domain space itself i.e. the gTLD expansion program. The success of domains has created its own monster there.

But stick with .com (in any language) and you are safe.

Head off to .mobi and .snowmobile and .... see you later in a meeting with Rick.

bumblebee man
13th March 2013, 12:15 PM
2. What makes you be so sure you can easily change the way Chinese read .com from .点看 to .网站?


Bad example because no one actually reads .com as .点看.

Rubber Duck
13th March 2013, 01:07 PM
I think the real point which James never really made is that if you ignore all the intangible bullshit and waste that makes up the US GDP figures and compare actual tangible production and consumption in terms of units and specifications rather overpriced FED Toilet paper, then China's economy is already almost double the size of that of the USA and growing faster.

His assertion is that there is room for quite a few extensions. I think there is some justification in that assertion.

bwhhisc
13th March 2013, 02:00 PM
Do you have the droit?

You might say he was a pioneer of the IDN droit technology! ;)

Jay
13th March 2013, 03:54 PM
I welcome you to leave your questions below.

I've posted a list of the extensions your company is applying for below.

I have four questions:

1. what pricing structure do you had in mind for registrants?
2. would there be any resident restrictions on registrations?
3. how will you release 'premium' names i.e. will these be 'first in first served'?
4. what sort of names will be restricted? If none, I would like to place an advanced order for 成人.娱乐, if that is okay :)

.wang - transliteration of characters for "web" and "king"
.show - "Chinglish" for Chinese char "秀" (Xiu)
.佛山 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) script for Foshan
.广东 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) script for Guangdong
.广州 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) script for Guangzhou
.深圳 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) for Shenzhen
.八卦 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "gossip"
.网店 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "webshop/e-shop"
.商城 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "mall"
.我爱你 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "I love you"
.时尚 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "vogue/fashion"
.网站 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "website/homepage/portal"
.娱乐 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "entertainment"
.慈善 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "charity"
.集团 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "conglomerate/group"

Rubber Duck
13th March 2013, 04:00 PM
I would kind of suspect that a lot of those are not going to make it past the GAC.

Isn't there some kind of thing going on about Geographics?

I've posted a list of the extensions your company is applying for below.

I have four questions:

1. what pricing structure do you had in mind?
2. would there be any resident restrictions on registrations?
3. how will you release 'premium' names i.e. will these be 'first in first served'?
4. what sort of names will be restricted? If none, I would like to place an advanced order for 成人.娱乐, if that is okay :)

.wang - transliteration of characters for "web" and "king"
.show - "Chinglish" for Chinese char "秀" (Xiu)
.佛山 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) script for Foshan
.广东 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) script for Guangdong
.广州 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) script for Guangzhou
.深圳 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) for Shenzhen
.八卦 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "gossip"
.网店 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "webshop/e-shop"
.商城 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "mall"
.我爱你 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "I love you"
.时尚 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "vogue/fashion"
.网站 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "website/homepage/portal"
.娱乐 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "entertainment"
.慈善 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "charity"
.集团 - Chinese (Hans/Simplified) "conglomerate/group"

jose
13th March 2013, 06:55 PM
I still think domain names have a future. But just like DOS, they will not live forever. IMHO domain names will be history in 20 years, if not before.

But I have my doubts, that's why I like to play Devil's advocate sometimes.

James opinion is of utmost importance, since unlike many, he really has "put his money where his mouth was".

Fundamentalist has take over IDNF. We can talk about anything in here, except questioning the unquestionable bright future of IDN domain names, that only we, the few enlighten chosen ones can see.

jose
13th March 2013, 06:56 PM
You can only be sure to be on the right track, when you stop and look around from time to time.

Rubber Duck
13th March 2013, 07:03 PM
I will tell you now that Domain Names will be around longer than you or I and certainly longer than the US exists as single entity with one Federal Bank.

As for Censorship, the only sanction is ridicule, which in this instance you have richly deserved.

I still think domain names have a future. But just like DOS, they will not live forever. IMHO domain names will be history in 20 years, if not before.

But I have my doubts, that's why I like to play Devil's advocate sometimes.

James opinion is of utmost importance, since unlike many, he really has "put his money where his mouth was".

Fundamentalist has take over IDNF. We can talk about anything in here, except questioning the unquestionable bright future of IDN domain names, that only we, the few enlighten chosen ones can see.

123
13th March 2013, 08:38 PM
at least as long as the internet is text based we will use words to locate resources. so domains will exist for a long time. the internet is mostly visual information technology and therefore visual and text based resource location will be the most popular way to locate websites. either via search keywords or via direct navigation.

there are no real alternatives to this system. what can compete against text based resource location?

speech? maybe as an alternative but will it replace text? i would say no. Even then speech might work with text based domains and will just translate speech into text.

some kind of SCI-FI thought based location? maybe hundreds of years from now but not in our lifetimes.

text is the most convenient and best way. text and speech and images have been used to communicate for thousands of years. how can this change anytime soon?

since the internet is text based words will be the most popular way to access information. as long as there are words there will be domains.

I still think domain names have a future. But just like DOS, they will not live forever. IMHO domain names will be history in 20 years, if not before.

what would replace them? you can only immagine some kind of horror scenario where everyone will publish under their facebook page, twitter handle, google account whatever. but who would that allow to happen?

if a business has the choice to use googlebrand/theirbrand vs theirbrand.com as their main presence why would they use the first one?

how do you replace domain names in radio, and tv advertising? How do you make people remember your website location?

and why would a website owner replace them? the fastest and easiest way to access a resource is to type the domain name. there is no real alternative to this.

ok domain names are primitive and simple technology that hasn't changed much but that's the reason why they will persist in my opinion. they are simple, like phone numbers.

clipper
13th March 2013, 09:13 PM
Thread successfully hijacked, new visitor scared away. This time he wasn't selling casıno.com or something.

Jesus, guys, stop feeding the animals.

jose
13th March 2013, 10:42 PM
they are simple, like phone numbers.

Good example. I used to know my girlfriend, best friend, mom, dad, work, home phone numbers. I know none now. They are still there, but I know none.

Same as domain names. Never before has so many people used Google,Facebook,Twitter,TV,Apps,whatever to find the resource under a domain name.

The way I see it is that in the future, you can say or type "person name" or "brand name" anywhere and the info that brand/person wants will be presented to you.

Great example is Google glasses. You say "Coke" and info about coke, chosen by the Coca Cola company is presented in front of your eyes.

jseng
14th March 2013, 01:12 AM
@Avtal There are still adoption on the app side of IDN. most of it are due to awareness and also less of understanding of unicode. but things are moving ahead. e.g. IEA (Internationalized Email Address) standard has been completed and the world first "Chinese email address" has been achieve.

http://www1.cnnic.cn/AU/MediaC/rdxw/2012nrd/201209/t20120904_36049.htm

@jose Rubber Duck has more or less explain but let me share my view here.

domain names are binded to the fundamental layer of internet. it is also one of the few bottom layers that is expose to the end-user above as an identity.

domain names as the fundamental layer of internet? no it wont go away. we have no alternative except to resort to IP address.

domain names as a mean of navigation and identity, it is no longer the only way, ie we now have other ways to find resources, e.g. search, apps, etc. but that does not mean it will go away. we have similar alternatives but we do not have any replacement technology as far as we can see.

as for verisign application vs us, i wont make any comment which is better except that anything that promotes Chinese domain names is good for everyone else.

@Jay we are working on our policies and pricing. it will be announce in the next couple of months.

bwhhisc
14th March 2013, 01:22 AM
domain names as the fundamental layer of internet? no it wont go away. we have no alternative except to resort to IP address.

domain names as a mean of navigation and identity, it is no longer the only way, ie we now have other ways to find resources, e.g. search, apps, etc. but that does not mean it will go away. we have similar alternatives but we do not have any replacement technology as far as we can see.
.

Domain names and IP addresses are all about trust and secuity. When you enter your intended IP address you know you will end up at the right address. There are secuity features that can be built in as banks and other secure https: sites have.

James, can you share any information about the progress with e-mail and IDNs.

Thx
Bill

hanidn
14th March 2013, 01:40 AM
What about progress for E-mail with IDNs??



done deal !

http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/eai/

yanni
14th March 2013, 01:42 AM
Welcome, James,

If you don't mind me asking, do you hold any second level IDNs either for personal, business use or investment?

Thanks

squirrel
14th March 2013, 01:50 AM
done deal !

http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/eai/

I see there have been a few new proposed standards published in March 2013.

clipper
14th March 2013, 02:06 AM
I would kind of suspect that a lot of those are not going to make it past the GAC.

Isn't there some kind of thing going on about Geographics?

Yes:

http://icannwiki.com/index.php/.深圳

The application was issued a GAC Early Warning by China... The warning states notes that the application is for a GeoTLD referring to a Chinese region, which requires government support. The Chinese government does not support the TLD.


However,

Guangzhou Yuwei Technology Co. Ltd (“The Applicant”)...is officially appointed and endorsed by the Guangdong provincial government with mission and purpose of applying for the relevant geographic gTLDs upon the launch of the ICANN new gTLD program and subsequently operating and managing these geographic gTLDs
(emphasis added)

Same thing for the other Geos (.深圳, .广州, and .佛山). .广东 has the added complication of an identical community application by Xinhua News Guandong Branch.

Mr. Seng probably cannot comment on the status of these applications or the objections, but it would appear that Zodiac is acting in a partnership capacity here and has at least secured the support of provincial governments. Convincing the federal government to withdraw its objections is probably keeping him pretty busy right now.

clipper
14th March 2013, 02:08 AM
I see there have been a few new proposed standards published in March 2013.
Significantly, IMAP and POP. Does this mean it's up to email clients/apps to adopt these standards to make IEA ready?

sbe18
14th March 2013, 03:34 AM
James,
Welcome to IDNF.

I think that Chinese idn.idn that have great content and mobile web orientation will succeed regardless of tld over time.

Chinese cctld's, gtld category/keyword tlds, and mobile friendliness will allow success over time.

idn.idn success will derive from branding and web surfer success in mobile search in China in my opinion.

Steve

Rubber Duck
14th March 2013, 03:39 AM
the main difference is whether you end up where you want to go or where somebody else wants you to go. I always type things like bank accounts.

Google Glass?

Not even if they paid me to wear it!

Good example. I used to know my girlfriend, best friend, mom, dad, work, home phone numbers. I know none now. They are still there, but I know none.

Same as domain names. Never before has so many people used Google,Facebook,Twitter,TV,Apps,whatever to find the resource under a domain name.

The way I see it is that in the future, you can say or type "person name" or "brand name" anywhere and the info that brand/person wants will be presented to you.

Great example is Google glasses. You say "Coke" and info about coke, chosen by the Coca Cola company is presented in front of your eyes.

blastfromthepast
14th March 2013, 06:00 AM
I used to know my girlfriend... home phone numbers.

:rolleyes:

domainguru
14th March 2013, 06:47 AM
Good example. I used to know my girlfriend, best friend, mom, dad, work, home phone numbers. I know none now. They are still there, but I know none.

Same as domain names. Never before has so many people used Google,Facebook,Twitter,TV,Apps,whatever to find the resource under a domain name.

The way I see it is that in the future, you can say or type "person name" or "brand name" anywhere and the info that brand/person wants will be presented to you.

Great example is Google glasses. You say "Coke" and info about coke, chosen by the Coca Cola company is presented in front of your eyes.

Sorry. I remembered one phone number in my life. My original home phone number. That's it. Phone numbers are like IP addresses. Numbers were never meant to be remembered, unless you are a freak that can remember PI to 67,890 digits (current world record).

Words *are* meant to be remembered. That's why we can talk together. We can all remember 100K words or more. A word plus ".com" equal a unique identifier in cyberspace, which is the end game in all this.

Two further perfect examples of nonsense you give:
1) Person's name : how many "Lee Hodgson" people in the world. Thousands. People with leehodgson.com - one. Everything needs a UNIQUE IDENTIFIER in cyberspace. Yes I am CAPPING that for you. Keywords are not unique. Domains are unique. So I can put "LeeHodgson.com" on a business card if I want people to be able to locate me online. I can't put "Lee Hodgson".

2) "Coke" - its just a search keyword dude, it doesn't uniquely identify Coca Cola. How does Google Glass know how to tell you about Coca Cola not cocaine or a hundred other generic coke brands around the globe? It doesn't. If it told you about Coca Cola that is just the equivalent of the "I'm feeling lucky" button on google search which has been there since google launched as a search engine.

So Google wouldn't do that. It would give you choices, search results to choose from. If it just told you about Coca Cola, people wouldn't use the service.

If you said "Coca Cola" company, it might tell you something, and then say, "Whould you like to visit their website?" or you might just say "Visit the website of Coca Cola Corporation" and it would take you there. It can do that because Coca Cola Corp has a unique website address.

The more you talk about "keywords", the more you dig your own grave. They are not unique. You remember that keyword service you could type into Internet Explorer? That was going to kill domains, haha. So was AOL's "keyword service", haha. And ISPs in many countries have launched their own keyword services thinking they are clever .... where are they now? Do any exist?

You can sit there all pessimistic about domains, but sorry, the facts speak for themselves. Domain registrations are on the up and have been continually since they were invented. Dozens of keyword services have started up and died.

No wonder you flip domains if you feel like this. Which is fine. Each to their own.

123
14th March 2013, 08:52 AM
Good example. I used to know my girlfriend, best friend, mom, dad, work, home phone numbers. I know none now. They are still there, but I know none.

Phone numbers under a name on your cellphone are more like bookmarks in your browser. Bookmarks have been around for quite a while but have not killed domains. Why? because it's so easy to remember words and type them into your browser or in google.

Great example is Google glasses. You say "Coke" and info about coke, chosen by the Coca Cola company is presented in front of your eyes.

yes of course because it's made by google. but can this replace the coke company website?

this is no different than having google as your startpage in your google chrome browser and typing in a word in their search.

search has not killed domain names.

Most importantly Hyperlinks. What is the internet without links? For a link you need a domain. Can you imagine a web without links?

Or will the future links go to a google search page where the link where you to wanted to link to will be presented under 4-5 PPC ads?

There will always be companies like google or facebook which want to be the internet and control as much as they can but i don't think any company will ever be powerful enough to eliminate the foundation on which the web is built and replace it with their own proprietary system.

Ben
14th March 2013, 09:12 AM
I agree with Jose here, but maybe not for the same reasons. I just think technology is so fast paced (and inversely proportional to ICANN's competence, it seems) that it's anyone's guess what the Internet landscape will look like in 20 years. Wouldn't surprise me if the DNS becomes decentralized on the peer-to-peer model; equally wouldn't surprise me if things stay how they are. The Internet (and the way people use it) is always evolving and it's hard to predict where it's going.

With that said, if you could all drop your domains or sell them to me on the cheap that'd be great. :)

Rubber Duck
14th March 2013, 09:35 AM
I agree with Jose here, but maybe not for the same reasons. I just think technology is so fast paced (and inversely proportional to ICANN's competence, it seems) that it's anyone's guess what the Internet landscape will look like in 20 years. Wouldn't surprise me if the DNS becomes decentralized on the peer-to-peer model; equally wouldn't surprise me if things stay how they are. The Internet (and the way people use it) is always evolving and it's hard to predict where it's going.

With that said, if you could all drop your domains or sell them to me on the cheap that'd be great. :)

Even your Peer to Peer model would still need to differentiate locations and users.

The only way ICANN domain names are going away is if the existing World Wide Web is replaced by an Alternate Root. In which case it would look much the same, but none of the existing name registrations would be valid. Not impossible but frankly unlikely. And such an assumption is not a reasonable basis for an alternative business plan.

123
14th March 2013, 10:22 AM
even a decentralized web does not eliminate the need for domain names.

i think this has not so much to do with technology but our brains and our society.

we have used written words for a long time and this will not change.

domain names are hard to be replaced because they are already the simplest technology you can't improve much here. how likely is it that a fork and knife will be replaced by some kind of superior technology anytime soon?

the internet consists of words and web sites give themselves names which consists of words. we can type those words to get to the resource that we want because our brain can remember words easily. i am not seeing any need for a better technology here. of course we can navigate to the site via google or google glasses or whatever by typing the words there (which takes two steps instead of one and is more complicated) but there will still the option to go straight to the resource because it's faster and more efficient.

i can't immagine an internet where companies have pay google to get a redirect via the i'm feeling lucky button instead of operating domain names.

blackpower
14th March 2013, 11:03 AM
Even your Peer to Peer model would still need to differentiate locations and users.

The only way ICANN domain names are going away is if the existing World Wide Web is replaced by an Alternate Root. In which case it would look much the same, but none of the existing name registrations would be valid. Not impossible but frankly unlikely. And such an assumption is not a reasonable basis for an alternative business plan.

May be this is what James has in mind? Alternate Root. Internet for China only?

bwhhisc
14th March 2013, 11:11 AM
May be this is what James has in mind? Alternate Root. Internet for China only?

He has invested 15 years into the current system (credentials below), one would doubt he wants to start over!

The Chinese need to be a part of the current worldwide internet for commerce. You can't hardly do a googel search for many commercial products without getting Alibaba as your #1 resource...I almost think the Chinese are running the e-commerce algorithm for google search. :lol:


Quote: 10/1998: James Seng was recruited to lead IDN development. (link below)

http://www.idnforums.com/forums/7319-chinese-idn-is-fetching-a-premium.html

Rubber Duck
14th March 2013, 11:20 AM
Yes, but even this does address the fundamental need for a two tier address system. You need virtual addressing because a hard wired addressing system is just too inflexible. You need constant virtual addresses assigned to the web developers and hardwired addresses assigned to the host destinations. The real function of a registry comes into play which is to assign and constantly update assignment of the virtual addresses to the hardwired ones.

And yes recognisable words are handy and are useful in marketing, but frankly these needs are almost secondary.

Remember, domain names were actually created long before their was a commercial demand or even really an envisaged commercial need. They were developed to make the Web function at a very technical level.

even a decentralized web does not eliminate the need for domain names.

i think this has not so much to do with technology but our brains and our society.

we have used written words for a long time and this will not change.

domain names are hard to be replaced because they are already the simplest technology you can't improve much here. how likely is it that a fork and knife will be replaced by some kind of superior technology anytime soon?

the internet consists of words and web sites give themselves names which consists of words. we can type those words to get to the resource that we want because our brain can remember words easily. i am not seeing any need for a better technology here. of course we can navigate to the site via google or google glasses or whatever by typing the words there (which takes two steps instead of one and is more complicated) but there will still the option to go straight to the resource because it's faster and more efficient.

i can't immagine an internet where companies have pay google to get a redirect via the i'm feeling lucky button instead of operating domain names.

123
14th March 2013, 12:11 PM
And yes recognisable words are handy and are useful in marketing, but frankly these needs are almost secondary.

Remember, domain names were actually created long before their was a commercial demand or even really an envisaged commercial need. They were developed to make the Web function at a very technical level.

yes i understand what you mean but at least from my perspective what matters is the internet user.

if domains were used just for technical reasons having a market would be obsolete we could use random combination of letters and numbers instead.

if domains would operate in the background without the average surfer using or caring about them and navigating via other services such as search boxes i would consider them dead at least in the form we knew them even if they are still alive in the background and vital to the functioning of the internet.

not sure what jose had in mind when he said domains would die and how he defines it.

Drewbert
14th March 2013, 01:11 PM
done deal !

http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/eai/

Hopefully all the server and client software upgrades will enable UTF-8/IDN as default, and it will all start working without anyone needed to dick around with settings.

Rubber Duck
14th March 2013, 01:40 PM
Hopefully all the server and client software upgrades will enable UTF-8/IDN as default, and it will all start working without anyone needed to dick around with settings.

Gizza job mate? I can do that....

Rubber Duck
14th March 2013, 02:22 PM
So the natural successor to Domain Names is Hexidecimal Strings?

Way to go, Jose!

yes i understand what you mean but at least from my perspective what matters is the internet user.

if domains were used just for technical reasons having a market would be obsolete we could use random combination of letters and numbers instead.

if domains would operate in the background without the average surfer using or caring about them and navigating via other services such as search boxes i would consider them dead at least in the form we knew them even if they are still alive in the background and vital to the functioning of the internet.

not sure what jose had in mind when he said domains would die and how he defines it.

jose
14th March 2013, 03:54 PM
not sure what jose had in mind when he said domains would die and how he defines it.

I don't know either. I am trying to interpret what is going on already on the Internet World outside here. I search for "domain names" on Google trends and notice the downtrend, I see the number of users declining big time on domain name forums, I notice the parking revenues dropping hugely, I see wise internet entrepreneurs leaving the domain business, and I realize I am tipping less and less urls each day.

And no, domain names will not die overnight, but the golden years are over (sorry Rick)

The way I see it is that we are the ones who still have a chance, since on emerging countries/economies the internet there is like 10 years behind. But again not sure about this.

Of course keywords are not unique and a domain is, but I get emails everyday from people asking when will I realize my next album, as there is a singer in Brasil named "Jose Augusto". Lucky me he is not very popular.

However, when my friends search for "Jose Augusto" on Facebook, I am the first one to show up, same goes with SIRI, Google or whatever. These tools are getting smarter and know you.

jose
14th March 2013, 04:10 PM
It's important to understand I sell domains here everyday. If I were a scumbag I would be pumping up the domains importance everyday, even thought my believe could be the opposite.

Because of all these years we have spent together here, I consider most of you my friends and not my costumers, and that's why I open my heart with my doubts and thoughts.

I am absolutely sure that I am not wrong when I say that all of you here are smartest entrepreneurs which can spot a trends way before others do, but sometimes it's time to move on, using our proved skills to find the next big thing.

One thing I have been giving much think lately is going the next mile, I mean using our Arabic or Chinese IDN domain to create a mini-site with it. Seems like a classic, but keep in mind Google algorithm updates that a long time to reach the google.cctlds and EMD would still work miracles there.

Rubber Duck
14th March 2013, 04:44 PM
Jose,

Why would I sell well I am getting more in parking than all the flippers here combined?

It's important to understand I sell domains here everyday. If I were a scumbag I would be pumping up the domains importance everyday, even thought my believe could be the opposite.

Because of all these years we have spent together here, I consider most of you my friends and not my costumers, and that's why I open my heart with my doubts and thoughts.

I am absolutely sure that I am not wrong when I say that all of you here are smartest entrepreneurs which can spot a trends way before others do, but sometimes it's time to move on, using our proved skills to find the next big thing.

One thing I have been giving much think lately is going the next mile, I mean using our Arabic or Chinese IDN domain to create a mini-site with it. Seems like a classic, but keep in mind Google algorithm updates that a long time to reach the google.cctlds and EMD would still work miracles there.

jose
14th March 2013, 04:48 PM
Jose,

Why would I sell well I am getting more in parking than all the flippers here combined?

That's why I think we can still have a chance. While ascii parking revenue is dropping idn parking revenue is going up. We are on the 90's, right bwhhisc? ;)

Rubber Duck
14th March 2013, 05:02 PM
That's why I think we can still have a chance. While ascii parking revenue is dropping idn parking revenue is going up. We are on the 90's, right bwhhisc? ;)

Yeah, and back then a Gambler took a punt got lucky and made millions.

Was he a business genius?

I doubt it. I am not sure he really understands how it all works even today.

Are we taking such a punt? No, because 90% of what he could not possibly know then is now history. All we need to do is fill in the gaps.

123
14th March 2013, 10:45 PM
I see the number of users declining big time on domain name forums, I notice the parking revenues dropping hugely, I see wise internet entrepreneurs leaving the domain business, and I realize I am tipping less and less urls each day.

what i think:

spontaneous type-ins may decline but i don't think that i am doing much less direct navigation than 10 years ago. not sure though. i would say it's about the same.

the parking drop is related to something other than traffic i believe. people are leaving the domain biz because the days of easy money are gone, the good names are all taken, parking revenue declined.

domains are probably used more than ever before. unfortunately i don't have any real stats to back this up.

http://www.webhosting.info/domains/country_stats/US

http://www.webhosting.info/domains/global_stats/gain_loss/

hanidn
14th March 2013, 11:32 PM
Hopefully all the server and client software upgrades will enable UTF-8/IDN as default, and it will all start working without anyone needed to dick around with settings.

That’s why and how they downgrade the UTF-8 to ASCII.

Avtal
15th March 2013, 03:21 AM
@Avtal There are still adoption on the app side of IDN. most of it are due to awareness and also less of understanding of unicode. but things are moving ahead. e.g. IEA (Internationalized Email Address) standard has been completed and the world first "Chinese email address" has been achieve.

http://www1.cnnic.cn/AU/MediaC/rdxw/2012nrd/201209/t20120904_36049.htm



James and hanidn,

Do either of you know any public email services that already use IEA or EAI?

Avtal

Avtal
15th March 2013, 03:49 AM
I see there have been a few new proposed standards published in March 2013.

Digging into the Internationalized eMail Address Discussion Archive (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ima/current/maillist.html), I found a message (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ima/current/msg05218.html) from March 9 which explains the procedural delays in publishing the standards. But as you noted when you visited the link provided by hanidn (http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/eai/), the EAI RFCs (6530-6533, 6783, and the new ones, 6855-6858) are all proposed standards now.

And here is a message (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ima/current/msg05220.html) from the co-chair, John Klensin (you really should read his Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Klensin)), dated March 11, entitled "[EAI] Finished! Future of the WG":

...

Thanks to everyone for hard work and patience.

Pete, please consider this a formal request to shut down the
working group and let Joseph and me get on with out lives.

...

It is now just a small matter of implementation.

Avtal

sarcle
15th March 2013, 05:00 AM
Hello James, welcome on board.

I just have two questions:




1. Don't you think domain names will be irrelevant in 2023?

2. What makes you be so sure you can easily change the way Chinese read .com from .点看 to .网站?

you are the dumbest bastard here. jesus im sick of seeing these posts. jose why not help by paying for a membership here instead of take and bitch about FUCKING EVERYTHING.
FUCK.

jose
15th March 2013, 05:18 AM
you are the dumbest bastard here. jesus im sick of seeing these posts. jose why not help by paying for a membership here instead of take and bitch about FUCKING EVERYTHING.
FUCK.

Compliments back my friend. I know, I know, I already replied to that. I am very sorry for offending the IDNF unquestionable holy truth. Again. I promise it was the last time.

Jay
15th March 2013, 11:47 AM
I reckon the mods should place these posts on the DNS in a separate thread so James can have his Q&A thread, which he initiated for that purpose.

But while we are on the subject of the future of the DNS, which I admit I don't know much about, here is what I would like to know:
1. Is there a real need for a different DNS? If no, it is unlikely to change.
2. Is is feasible to change (or bypass) the current DNS structure? If no, it will not change
3. What would the costs and disadvantages be of changing the DNS against the benefits? If the benefits do not outweigh the costs, then it is unlikely to change.

Rubber Duck
15th March 2013, 11:51 AM
I reckon the mods should place these posts on the DNS in a separate thread so James can have his Q&A thread, which he initiated.

But while we are on the subject of the future of the DNS, which I admit I don't know much about, here is what I would like to know:
1. Is there a real need for a different DNS? If no, it is unlikely to change.
2. Is is feasible to change (or bypass) the current DNS structure? If no, it will not change
3. What would the costs and disadvantages be of changing the DNS against the benefits? If the benefits do not outweigh the costs, then it is unlikely to change.

+1

domainguru
15th March 2013, 02:57 PM
I reckon the mods should place these posts on the DNS in a separate thread so James can have his Q&A thread, which he initiated for that purpose.

But while we are on the subject of the future of the DNS, which I admit I don't know much about, here is what I would like to know:
1. Is there a real need for a different DNS? If no, it is unlikely to change.
2. Is is feasible to change (or bypass) the current DNS structure? If no, it will not change
3. What would the costs and disadvantages be of changing the DNS against the benefits? If the benefits do not outweigh the costs, then it is unlikely to change.

We might have scared James off already :confused:

Well, when I say "us" .....

You can try "starting again", but what's to stop people posting stupid questions again? Its a free forum after all.

Your questions are .... extremely complicated to answer by anyone, James included.

He's already said he's working out details. Its like everyone, VeriSign etc. They will announce when they are ready, not (unfortunately) when we want them to.

Just nice James showed up here and said hello.

squirrel
15th March 2013, 03:01 PM
I reckon the mods should place these posts on the DNS in a separate thread so James can have his Q&A thread, which he initiated for that purpose.

But while we are on the subject of the future of the DNS, which I admit I don't know much about, here is what I would like to know:
1. Is there a real need for a different DNS? If no, it is unlikely to change.
2. Is is feasible to change (or bypass) the current DNS structure? If no, it will not change
3. What would the costs and disadvantages be of changing the DNS against the benefits? If the benefits do not outweigh the costs, then it is unlikely to change.

Are you referring to alternate roots or a new system that would not be domain name based and would replace the DNS altogether ?

squirrel
15th March 2013, 03:09 PM
It is now just a small matter of implementation.

Avtal

years ? decades ? how long does it take for an RFC to be implemented ? Is there a regulation body that can force email software providers to implement the new RFC.

Rubber Duck
15th March 2013, 03:13 PM
Are you referring to alternate roots or a new system that would not be domain name based and would replace the DNS altogether ?

I am thinking of issuing my own Dollars with the same value as FED Dollars and frankly just as much asset underwriting them. Of course they won't have Lincoln grinning mug on them, but you cannot have everything.

Anyone interested?

Rubber Duck
15th March 2013, 03:15 PM
years ? decades ? how long does it take for an RFC to be implemented ? Is there a regulation body that can force email software providers to implement the new RFC.

Those that need it work, almost immediately.

Those that don't need it to work, probably never!

squirrel
15th March 2013, 03:20 PM
I am thinking of issuing my own Dollars with the same value as FED Dollars and frankly just as much asset underwriting them. Of course they won't have Lincoln grinning mug on them, but you cannot have everything.

Anyone interested?

I might be a taker for a few rubber dollars, yes

Rubber Duck
15th March 2013, 03:23 PM
years ? decades ? how long does it take for an RFC to be implemented ? Is there a regulation body that can force email software providers to implement the new RFC.

Internet Explorer all type now below 30% of the Market. Who would have thought that a couple of years back?

http://www.sitepoint.com/browser-trends-march-2013/

Rubber Duck
15th March 2013, 03:25 PM
I might be a taker for a few rubber dollars, yes

Can you exchange for tangible assets?

Don't want a pile of that Bernanke shit cluttering up my socks drawer. :lol:

welkin
15th March 2013, 03:49 PM
I am thinking of issuing my own Dollars with the same value as FED Dollars and frankly just as much asset underwriting them. Of course they won't have Lincoln grinning mug on them, but you cannot have everything.

Anyone interested?

I might be a taker for a few rubber dollars, yes

Sounds like the Ningi.

http://www.acc.umu.se/~ola/hitchhik.htm

Rubber Duck
15th March 2013, 04:02 PM
Sounds like the Ningi.

http://www.acc.umu.se/~ola/hitchhik.htm

I can take Ningi, but only if you have Eight of them, and they must be placed in a Safety Deposit Box and the key exchanged for Rubber Dollars.

Jay
15th March 2013, 06:27 PM
Are you referring to alternate roots or a new system that would not be domain name based and would replace the DNS altogether ?

I mean anything that makes the use of current domain names obsolete. We could be talking about the DNS structure, alternative roots, or overlaid systems like Facebook.

The point I'm trying to make is that the current way of doing things won't change unless there is a real need for it. There was a real need for the DNS, so it was introduced and it took off. There was a real need for IDNs, which people like James understood, and so it was introduced as a new system to solve a real problem and it will take off for that reason.

The only thing that I can think might make the main DNS system a real problem is if it becomes too censored - then maybe an alternative root might become preferable.

As for overlaid systems like Facebook (or Angelfire, Tripod, etc), they don't serve any real need that isn't already being met by regular web addresses. Actually they are more problematic because: 1. they are too limited design-wise; and 2. they are centrally controlled and therefore subject to additional rules and censorship.

The only advantages of Facebook is that it is easy to set up a site there (which only appeals to businesses with no skills or resources) and it is easier to get some exposure there than Google (but that will only last as long as Facebook is popular).

Rubber Duck
15th March 2013, 06:34 PM
Alternate Root would probably be subject to even more censorship, as it would inevitably be regarded as suspicious, unless introduced by a totalitarian regime in the first place.

I mean anything that makes the use of current domain names obsolete. We could be talking about the DNS structure, alternative roots, or overlaid systems like Facebook.

The point I'm trying to make is that the current way of doing things won't change unless there is a real need for it. There was a real need for the DNS, so it was introduced and it took off. There was a real need for IDNs, which people like James understood, and so it was introduced as a new system to solve a real problem and it will take off for that reason.

The only thing that I can think might make the main DNS system a real problem is if it becomes too censored - then ma

ybe an alternative root might become preferable.

As for overlaid systems like Facebook (or Angelfire, Tripod, etc), they don't serve any real need that isn't already being met by regular web addresses. Actually, they are more problematic because: 1. they are too limited design-wise; and 2. they are centrally controlled and therefore subject to additional rules and censorship.

The only advantages of Facebook is that it is easy to set up a site there (which only appeals to businesses with no skills or resources) and it is easier to get some exposure there than Google (but that will only last as long as Facebook is popular).

Avtal
16th March 2013, 12:58 AM
years ? decades ? how long does it take for an RFC to be implemented ? Is there a regulation body that can force email software providers to implement the new RFC.

Probably no way to force an upgrade to the new standards. As domainguru pointed out a year or two ago, one big issue is how old and new email servers will interoperate. If I understand correctly, if email is sent from an internationalized address to a recipient whose mail server has not yet implemented EAI, the message will bounce.

A few relevant links:

circleid.com...making_multi_language_mail_work_part_3/ (http://www.circleid.com/posts/20121223_making_multi_language_mail_work_part_3/) (recent series of articles on EAI; from this article you can get to parts 1 and 2).

http://www.bortzmeyer.org/6531.html (in French, discussing the EAI RFCs from a year ago; click on the "Seulement les RFC" link on the left and scroll almost to the bottom to see his comments on the latest RFCs).

http://www.coremail.cn/artview-417.html (in Chinese, coremail.cn seems to be in the process of implementing EAI; according to Bortzmeyer's blog, they have already produced EAI patches for sendmail and postfix).

http://www.engardelinux.org/modules/index/list_archives.cgi?list=postfix-devel&page=0001.html&month=2011-10 (a discussion between Wietse Venema (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wietse_Venema), the author of postfix, and various correspondents, including James Levine who wrote the CircleID article, regarding EAI in postfix; click on the "Next in thread" links to follow the discussion).

My guess: 1) The Chinese will implement EAI first; 2) they will figure out a clever way to downgrade to ascii if the recipient has not yet implemented EAI, rather than bouncing the email.

Avtal

clipper
16th March 2013, 03:45 AM
Those that need it work, almost immediately.

Those that don't need it to work, probably never!

+1.

Markets that see an uptick in IDN email addresses will address the issue. Those that don't, won't. It will likely mean that US hosting providers will be the last to implement, if they ever do.