IDN domains with no dots (extensions)

[TrafficDomainer]

Hi all,

I just came accross a service by nipa.co.th that registers Thai domain names with no dots (extensions). I just tried typing a few thai names using Firefox and was taken to different Thai sites that have been registered through them. I was wondering if there are similar services in other languages? Do you all feel that this type of competing service could make IDNs less valuable? I don't see many Thais registering Thai domain names with the ICANN extenstions and I am beginning to wonder if they may actually opt for Thai names with no extensions instead.

[Rubber Duck]

Hi all,

I just came accross a service by nipa.co.th that registers Thai domain names with no dots (extensions). I just tried typing a few thai names using Firefox and was taken to different Thai sites that have been registered through them. I was wondering if there are similar services in other languages? Do you all feel that this type of competing service could make IDNs less valuable? I don't see many Thais registering Thai domain names with the ICANN extenstions and I am beginning to wonder if they may actually opt for Thai names with no extensions instead.

No, this kind of service has popped up in every language. There is some useage in the Far East but soon after IE 7.0 arrives they will all go down the tubes.

[Giant]

No, this kind of service has popped up in every language. There is some useage in the Far East but soon after IE 7.0 arrives they will all go down the tubes.

Correct!

[TrafficDomainer]

No, this kind of service has popped up in every language. There is some useage in the Far East but soon after IE 7.0 arrives they will all go down the tubes.

The companies that have registered Thai names with no extensions wth them are major corporations (banks, insurance, car companies and etc) and they have been promoting heavilly locally and have also teamed up with local ISPs, wouldn't people eventually prefer typing IDNs with no dots if they can as opposed to having to type extensions (especialy when a combination of local font and English .com would not be necessary?

Yours:)

[Rubber Duck]

The companies that have registered Thai names with no extensions wth them are major corporations (banks, insurance, car companies and etc) and they have been promoting heavilly locally and have also teamed up with local ISPs, wouldn't people eventually prefer typing IDNs with no dots if they can as opposed to having to type extensions (especialy when a combination of local font and English .com would not be necessary?

Yours:)

Effectively, if you do this you are putting yourself outside the World Wide Web. Your addresses no longer resolve through the ICANN supervised DNS, but end up god knows where. I wouldn't even contemplating allowing the installation of such a pluggin on my machine, as a lot of them are know security risks.

[TrafficDomainer]

I actually didn't install any plug-ins and these thai domain names with no extensions work just fine with firefox as stated in their site's FAQ in Thai. Rubber Duck and others, could you please try to type เชลล์ in your Firefox browser and let me know if the domain name resolves. This is Shell (the oil company) website in Thailand. I am curious to know if the name such as this one can resolve from all over the world without having to install/download any software. I am in Canada and it resolves fine.

Thanks for all your help.

Yours:)

[Rubber Duck]

See what you mean. I get a PDF file from Siamgloballubricant.com. Very strange.

Not quite sure how that works but obviously Firefox is acting as agent for the service.

Perhaps I will go back to IE 7.0 after all!

[gammascalper]

เชลล์ without extension resolves to Shell because Firefox automatically searches in Google for the 1st search result and takes you there.

Try typing-in 'china' into your url bar.

You should be able to alter the default SE somewhere in the prefs.

[mulligan]

This is where a portion of our parking income comes from....Names without extension..
Also try 新聞 -- Takes you to chinanews.com

[OldIDNer]

the idn keyword concept

[Rubber Duck]

I believe that in the near future, ICANN will extend the DName concept to include a keyword service, which would kill all these Wannabees stone dead. I also believe firmly that is why ICANN will adopt DName. If they don't they will be turning down the biggest money spinner to ever walk past their door. I have have already discussed proposals at the highest levels.

[TrafficDomainer]

I believe that in the near future, ICANN will extend the DName concept to include a keyword service, which would kill all these Wannabees stone dead. I also believe firmly that is why ICANN will adopt DName. If they don't they will be turning down the biggest money spinner to ever walk past their door. I have have already discussed proposals at the highest levels.

With ICANN acting so slowly to map IDN.com into IDN.com(in local language), would they not lose out to some of these local no dot providers? As for Thailand, Nipa already claims to have 200,000 domains entries per day in Thai through their service and they mentioned in their FAQs (in Thai as per below) that you do not need to download any software if your ISP is their partner (they have apparently teamed up with major ISPs in Thailand) and hence for Thailand, they may already have the edge over ICANN IDN.com service with the popularity/usage growing there. I wonder once ICANN launches no extension IDN domain names, how will they resolve if local ISPs have already made the agreement with a company like NIPA to resolve their domains without extensions. With the current rate of their growth and adoption by major corporations in Thailand, I am concenred that ICANN may lose out for Thailand for the no extension space. I can't speak for other IDNs with no extension.

RubberDuck, any info how I could book/prebook no extension domains through ICANN? What kind of proposals have you discussed with them if I may ask?

จำเป็นจะต้องดาวน์โหลดซอฟท์แวร์จากปุ่ม Install หรือไม่

ไม่จำเป็นต้องดาวน์โหลดถ้าต่ออินเทอร์เน็ตผ่าน ISP ที่เป็น Partner กับนิภา แต่ถ้าดาวน์โหลด จะทำให้การใช้"ชื่อไทย ไม่มีดอท" เร็วขึ้นและซอฟท์แวร์ดาวน์โหลดนี้เป็นเพียงสคริปต์เล็กๆ ที่มีขนาด 200kb เท่านั้น

[Rubber Duck]

With ICANN acting so slowly to map IDN.com into IDN.com(in local language), would they not lose out to some of these local no dot providers? As for Thailand, Nipa already claims to have 200,000 domains entries per day in Thai through their service and they mentioned in their FAQs that you do not need to download any software if your ISP is their partner (they have apparently teamed up with major ISPs in Thailand) and hence for Thailand, they may already have the edge over ICANN IDN.com service with the popularity/usage growing there. I wonder once ICANN launches no extension IDN domain names, how will they resolve if local ISPs have already made the agreement with a company like NIPA to resolve their domains without extensions. With the current rate of their growth and adoption by major corporations in Thailand, I am concenred that ICANN may lose out for Thailand for the no extension space. I can't speak for other IDNs with no extension.

RubberDuck, any info how I could book/prebook no extension domains through ICANN? What kind of proposals have you discussed with them if I may ask?

จำเป็นจะต้องดาวน์โหลดซอฟท์แวร์จากปุ่ม Install หรือไม่

ไม่จำเป็นต้องดาวน์โหลดถ้าต่ออินเทอร์เน็ตผ่าน ISP ที่เป็น Partner กับนิภา แต่ถ้าดาวน์โหลด จะทำให้การใช้"ชื่อไทย ไม่มีดอท" เร็วขึ้นและซอฟท์แวร์ดาวน์โหลดนี้เป็นเพียงสคริปต์เล็กๆ ที่มีขนาด 200kb เท่านั้น

It wasn't a business proposal as such, but my idea was to effectively isolate extensionless traffick and then putting it through the DName aliasing. What I suggested was that these name could be leased via auction on an annual basis. Such names could be leased for annual fees running into 4 to 6 figures quite easily. They would also not be governed by externally imposed rules on ICANN in the way domain names are. I am fairly confident that they will investigate these avenues.

Well, I cannot see that ISPs have any control over where my searches end up. Yes, ISPs are in a position to pull a few tricks but at the end of the day, if my ISP was preventing me from getting normal service for their own gain, they would get dumped pretty quickly. The earlier example though was clearly nothing to do with local ISPs but quirky bits introduced into the browsers.

The other problem that end users have, is the level of ownership they have over the extensionless Aliases. When push comes to shove a lot of hard work and investment could just go down the plug hole.

I think they have mileage as short-term fixes, but I cannot see how they can seriously compete with a proper web address.

[rhys]

Well, I cannot see that ISPs have any control over where my searches end up. Yes, ISPs are in a position to pull a few tricks but at the end of the day, if my ISP was preventing me from getting normal service for their own gain, they would get dumped pretty quickly.

But I figure Microsoft will direct all such extensionless traffic in I.E. 7.0 to MSN Search just as 6.0 current does. It's one of the key drivers propping up their search engine currently. That should probably supercede any attempts by other parties to similarly hijack the traffic.

[hanidn]

But I figure Microsoft will direct all such extensionless traffic in I.E. 7.0 to MSN Search just as 6.0 current does. It's one of the key drivers propping up their search engine currently. That should probably supercede any attempts by other parties to similarly hijack the traffic.


They (http://e.netpia.com) could hijack the MSN traffic in IE6 without going to court because of MS’s monopoly issue….

In IE7, users can direct all such extensionless traffic by setting the default like yahoo, google or any other search engines.

Although I have been watching them last 7 years, I did register very few and can give up any time now.

IDN.com, I give up "no-way" I mean "no_way"...until the Dname issue went wrong....

[Olney]

Yes I'll confirm on Firefox IDN keywords typed in will just resolve directly to the first listing in Google.

[Drewbert]

I've had this out before with the Firefox people to no avail.

If some is successful at getting the #1 Google position for a keyword that children type in regularly, then redirect the site to porn, Firefox is going to look pretty silly.

[domainguru]

With ICANN acting so slowly to map IDN.com into IDN.com(in local language), would they not lose out to some of these local no dot providers? As for Thailand, Nipa already claims to have 200,000 domains entries per day in Thai through their service and they mentioned in their FAQs (in Thai as per below) that you do not need to download any software if your ISP is their partner (they have apparently teamed up with major ISPs in Thailand) and hence for Thailand, they may already have the edge over ICANN IDN.com service with the popularity/usage growing there. I wonder once ICANN launches no extension IDN domain names, how will they resolve if local ISPs have already made the agreement with a company like NIPA to resolve their domains without extensions. With the current rate of their growth and adoption by major corporations in Thailand, I am concenred that ICANN may lose out for Thailand for the no extension space. I can't speak for other IDNs with no extension.

RubberDuck, any info how I could book/prebook no extension domains through ICANN? What kind of proposals have you discussed with them if I may ask?

จำเป็นจะต้องดาวน์โหลดซอฟท์แวร์จากปุ่ม Install หรือไม่

ไม่จำเป็นต้องดาวน์โหลดถ้าต่ออินเทอร์เน็ตผ่าน ISP ที่เป็น Partner กับนิภา แต่ถ้าดาวน์โหลด จะทำให้การใช้"ชื่อไทย ไม่มีดอท" เร็วขึ้นและซอฟท์แวร์ดาวน์โหลดนี้เป็นเพียงสคริปต์เล็กๆ ที่มีขนาด 200kb เท่านั้น

There have been dozens of organizations over the years trying to hijack traffic for both local and global domains, either via keyword systems or "alternative domain roots". A couple of examples are RealNames and New.net. All they have succeeded in doing is taking lots of money from people and confusing them.

Nipa obviously succeeded in confusing you by making you think Shell had bought a keyword from them :)

They fall down for a variety of reasons, but mostly because they are proprietary, and require you to run a proprietary system to access whatever it is they are selling you. This software is either installed locally on your PC (uggh!), or on ISP server machines. And since it is proprietary, it is *never* going to work consistently across the Net. Sure, if your ISP happens to be teaming up with the service provider that year, you can access it. But what if you swap ISPs? Or the ISP ends the relationship? Or gets a better deal from a different start-up? Or you move to a different country? Wallop - the service stops working for you.

And as for browser plug-ins, they require each user to install the plug-in. This never happens for all the obvious reasons. The penetration of any such system via user plug-ins is very very low.

As for Nipa claiming this and that, well that's what their marketing department is paid to do. They will claim massive numbers until the day the service folds.

I have never seen an ad from a company using their service. Why would any company pay to advertise a keyword where perhaps only 10% or 20% of the Thai population can access it? Not only do you get a very restricted market, you also annoy the other 80% by wasting their time.

Services like this that operate outside the ICANN mandate are doomed to failure. There would be no stability in Net addressing if everyone was busy downloading / replacing / swapping propietary drivers / ISPs in order to access such services.

Consider the situation if Nipa "succeeded" to any degree and a rival company started up? Would you be expected to toggle between ISPs every 5 mins? The idea simply doesn't work, period.

[touchring]

Yes I'll confirm on Firefox IDN keywords typed in will just resolve directly to the first listing in Google.


Yes, i suspect that for every non-alphabet IDN type-in we get, Google gets 100 times the type-in from Firefox redirects.

[TrafficDomainer]

[QUOTE=domainguru]There have been dozens of organizations over the years trying to hijack traffic for both local and global domains, either via keyword systems or "alternative domain roots". A couple of examples are RealNames and New.net. All they have succeeded in doing is taking lots of money from people and confusing them.

--------Nipa obviously succeeded in confusing you by making you think Shell had bought a keyword from them :)

Thanks for your take and logic on this DomainGuru. Greatly appreciate your help. Actually according to Nipa's site, Shell actually bought the keyword from them along with a number of other major corporations in Thailand such as Thai Farmers Bank, Bank of Ayudhya. I have enclosed the list in Thai from their website as per below. I am surprised why these companies would register Thai names with them if they don't resolve universally.


เอไอเอส อจท น่ารักดอทคอม
ไอทีมอล กสิกรไทย โชตดีติ่มซำ
ป้องกันฟ้าผ่า ธนชาติ เรียลตี้เวิลด์
โรงแรมดุสิต SCIB แว่นท็อปเจริญ
สีนิปปอน จรัล มโนเพ็ชร กองทุนรวมวรรณ
ซอสภูเขาทอง กองควบคุมโรค หนุ่มสาวทัวร์
นวกิจประกันภัย บริดจสโตน รถไฟฟ้าใต้ดิน
ยิ่งศักดิ์ บ้านกลางกรุง บล กรุงศรีอยุธยา
การ์ตูนซน ควอลิตี้เฮ้าส์ บริษัทหลักทรัพย
ขวัญเรือน โรงพยาบาลกรุงเทพ บางกอกแอร์
ปตท ปูนซีเมนต์นครหลวง รถฟ้าบีทีเอส
ปัญจทรัพย์ เทสโก้โลตัส ทิปโก้
ยำแซ่บ วังขนาย ตระการตา
สมิติเวช นันทวัน-มารูเซ่ เชลล์

[OldIDNer]

Probably because they want to reach the local market with that. China also offers an IDN keyword: http://i-dns.net/

[Rubber Duck]

Probably because they want to reach the local market with that. China also offers an IDN keyword: http://i-dns.net/

Well, people always buy in for the same reason. Some Snake Oil Salesman has pitched and closed the deal. Doesn't mean that what they have bought into is worth a handful of beans.

[yanni]

Wait till they find out that they can own the .com equivalent of the keywords they have purchased/are leasing...

[domainguru]

[QUOTE=domainguru]There have been dozens of organizations over the years trying to hijack traffic for both local and global domains, either via keyword systems or "alternative domain roots". A couple of examples are RealNames and New.net. All they have succeeded in doing is taking lots of money from people and confusing them.

--------Nipa obviously succeeded in confusing you by making you think Shell had bought a keyword from them :)

Thanks for your take and logic on this DomainGuru. Greatly appreciate your help. Actually according to Nipa's site, Shell actually bought the keyword from them along with a number of other major corporations in Thailand such as Thai Farmers Bank, Bank of Ayudhya. I have enclosed the list in Thai from their website as per below. I am surprised why these companies would register Thai names with them if they don't resolve universally.


เอไอเอส อจท น่ารักดอทคอม
ไอทีมอล กสิกรไทย โชตดีติ่มซำ
ป้องกันฟ้าผ่า ธนชาติ เรียลตี้เวิลด์
โรงแรมดุสิต SCIB แว่นท็อปเจริญ
สีนิปปอน จรัล มโนเพ็ชร กองทุนรวมวรรณ
ซอสภูเขาทอง กองควบคุมโรค หนุ่มสาวทัวร์
นวกิจประกันภัย บริดจสโตน รถไฟฟ้าใต้ดิน
ยิ่งศักดิ์ บ้านกลางกรุง บล กรุงศรีอยุธยา
การ์ตูนซน ควอลิตี้เฮ้าส์ บริษัทหลักทรัพย
ขวัญเรือน โรงพยาบาลกรุงเทพ บางกอกแอร์
ปตท ปูนซีเมนต์นครหลวง รถฟ้าบีทีเอส
ปัญจทรัพย์ เทสโก้โลตัส ทิปโก้
ยำแซ่บ วังขนาย ตระการตา
สมิติเวช นันทวัน-มารูเซ่ เชลล์

Well of course they don't resolve universally ! Do they resolve for you in Canada? No, because your ISP hasn't installed the software. The only reason you got to the shell website was because of Firefox's agreement to send traffic to Google.

Do they resolve for me in Thailand? No, because I also use Firefox, and hence get sent to Google's #1 result .....

So this idea of "universality" is obviously a non-starter. If companies want to get some extra traffic that's fine, nipa are just hijacking "non-qualified" browser entries after all, but it really has nothing to do with domain names whatsoever. Domain names are about establishing long-term home on the web. Nipa is just about getting some short term advertising bucks. Call them what you want, but don't call them "domain names", because they aren't.

Don't forget how this thread started:

I just tried typing a few thai names using Firefox and was taken to different Thai sites that have been registered through them.

I am not digging at you, just demonstrating how these sorts of propietary systems confuse users. What happened to you wasn't what you thought happened to you. You weren't accessing Nipa at all.

So let's say for instance, you told a Thai friend in another city in Canada about the system, and they happened to use IE6 not Firefox, they wouldn't have got any results, and probably thought you were barking :)

Or you had told a friend in Thailand that wasn't on the "ISP compatibility list" - same thing.

Once IE7 happens, and individual / companies see how to establish a permanent home on the web in their native language, the "need" for local-language keyword systems will disappear, though obviously nipa will try and milk it for as long as they can.

If you haven't seen keyword systems come and go in the past, then just watch the future ...

[Giant]

No one could have explained this better than Domainguru!

This type of service is called redirecting service. The company that is most successful in offering this type of service is 3721.com in China, a lot of large and small business in China use their service because people want to type in Chinese names to navigate. But they are going downhill now. People are waiting for IE7 -- Game Over for this type of services.

[TrafficDomainer]

[QUOTE=TrafficDomainer]

Well of course they don't resolve universally ! Do they resolve for you in Canada? No, because your ISP hasn't installed the software. The only reason you got to the shell website was because of Firefox's agreement to send traffic to Google.

Do they resolve for me in Thailand? No, because I also use Firefox, and hence get sent to Google's #1 result .....

So this idea of "universality" is obviously a non-starter. If companies want to get some extra traffic that's fine, nipa are just hijacking "non-qualified" browser entries after all, but it really has nothing to do with domain names whatsoever. Domain names are about establishing long-term home on the web. Nipa is just about getting some short term advertising bucks. Call them what you want, but don't call them "domain names", because they aren't.

Don't forget how this thread started:



I am not digging at you, just demonstrating how these sorts of propietary systems confuse users. What happened to you wasn't what you thought happened to you. You weren't accessing Nipa at all.

So let's say for instance, you told a Thai friend in another city in Canada about the system, and they happened to use IE6 not Firefox, they wouldn't have got any results, and probably thought you were barking :)

Or you had told a friend in Thailand that wasn't on the "ISP compatibility list" - same thing.

Once IE7 happens, and individual / companies see how to establish a permanent home on the web in their native language, the "need" for local-language keyword systems will disappear, though obviously nipa will try and milk it for as long as they can.

If you haven't seen keyword systems come and go in the past, then just watch the future ...


Thanks for enlightning me on this. Looking at it, it appears Nipa is misrepresenting to major Corporations in Thailand and they apparently are buying into this hijacking scam as they like me probably thought that the Thai keywords resolve universally and they are actually colluding with major ISPs in Thailand. Nipa must have tried their best to optimize their client sites so that their sites appear as #1 on google search for each corresponding keyword in Thai and their clients got the impression that this system actually resolves universally when Firefox takes them to the first result for each corrsponding Thai keyword. Thanks again Domain Guru! :)