Extensions, Type-ins, Value [Archive] - IDN Forums

drbiohealth

5th July 2006, 02:24 AM

Giant

5th July 2006, 03:14 AM

Agree with you on all above. But I think the most important factor is, where will the browser bring you to when you press Ctrl + Enter after typing in IDN? If Chinese IE7 is like English IE7 ---> .com, then IDN.com will rule.

As for typing .cn and .com after IDN, both are easy to type, and both are easy to remember.

Olney

5th July 2006, 03:32 AM

It's hard to say what native users will eventually use long term.

In Opera & Safari (I think) when you put a term in the broswer it goes to the dot com. It used to do this on FireFox & then they switched it to go to the first results in Google

but

In Browsers like Firefox with dot com the punycode is displayed. With dot jp the punycode is never displayed in all browsers. (there is an issue with words that have ”ー” character in it.

drbiohealth

5th July 2006, 04:19 AM

Yes, that's another valid dimension/variable to look at. Not sure though how many use Ctrl + Enter compared to pure type-ins.

But I think the most important factor is, where will the browser bring you to when you press Ctrl + Enter after typing in IDN? If Chinese IE7 is like English IE7 ---> .com, then IDN.com will rule.

touchring

5th July 2006, 04:46 AM

Nobody seems to be looking at IDNs from an angle that seems would play a significant role in perhaps deciding how much type-ins a name would get in future and ultimately how much value the name will command.

Which one will have more value - IDN.cctld or IDN.com? Two factors may be critical here,

1. How easy/memorable .com extension would be in each IDN language? This basically means how easy it would be for locals to type in the extension after the IDN name.
2. Whether the .cctld exists in that market and if that extension is typein "friendly"?

Likely scenarios:
1. My sense is that .com extension will rule those markets where IDN cctld does not exist yet and the .com extension in IDN there is relatively simple & intuitive.

2. Similarly, if in a market IDN cctld exists and is "friendly + assigned .com extension proves to be compex -> IDN cctld will rule.

For example, in Russian IDN cctld is absent + I see a cool mapping of .com <-> .KOM -> good market for IDN.com.

I am not sure how markets in Japanese, Chinese, and Korean are from this perspective, and whether cctlds in IDN exist there and how complex .com extension is likely to be in these lingos.

It would be nice to hear from locals and what they feel about their languages.

We have discussed this in many threads, you can search the posts 'ctld'. Absent now doesn't mean absent forever. Technology changes all the time. Type-in habits will also change, although it takes a long time to change.

There are many factors, but i think the most important for IDNs in the Long Term (5-10 years period) is idn.idn. The longer ICANN delays idn.idn, and if country NICs go ahead with their own idn.idn (as in the case of CNNIC), the more type-in locals will use ctld for idns.

Think this way, had cltds been operating for 5 years before ICANN launched .com, will .com still be the global tld it is today?

Rubber Duck

5th July 2006, 05:33 AM

We have discussed this in many threads, you can search the posts 'ctld'. Absent now doesn't mean absent forever. Technology changes all the time. Type-in habits will also change, although it takes a long time to change.

There are many factors, but i think the most important for IDNs in the Long Term (5-10 years period) is idn.idn. The longer ICANN delays idn.idn, and if country NICs go ahead with their own idn.idn (as in the case of CNNIC), the more type-in locals will use ctld for idns.

Think this way, had cltds been operating for 5 years before ICANN launched .com, will .com still be the global tld it is today?

No wonder you think prices are rising too quickly, if you seriousl believe IDN.IDN is on a 5-10 year time frame. Seriously, nobody is going to wait that long. ICANN have about 6 months to show some serious credibility in this field.

Something has to give and soon. ICANN are only still there because nobody wants to rock the boat, but if something doesn't get sorted out in a reasonable time frame and we are seriously talking less than a year, ICANN and the US Government will simply be told thanks, but no thanks. Authority, will almost certainly be passed to the UN. Verisign will not tie themselves to the mast of a sinking ship either.

touchring

5th July 2006, 05:42 AM

No wonder you think prices are rising too quickly, if you seriousl believe IDN.IDN is on a 5-10 year time frame. Seriously, nobody is going to wait that long. ICANN have about 6 months to show some serious credibility in this field.

Something has to give and soon. ICANN are only still there because nobody wants to rock the boat, but if something doesn't get sorted out in a reasonable time frame and we are seriously talking less than a year, ICANN and the US Government will simply be told thanks, but no thanks. Authority, will almost certainly be passed to the UN. Verisign will not tie themselves to the mast of a sinking ship either.

Well, I'm just considering all the possibilities - afterall, it took them 5 years to finish "introducing" xn-- prefixed domains - the smartest act ICANN has done for IDNs the past 6 years, as Giant has put it. :)

But, I also do not discount the end of year timeline that everyone here is talking about.

domainguru

5th July 2006, 05:53 AM

Yes, that's another valid dimension/variable to look at. Not sure though how many use Ctrl + Enter compared to pure type-ins.

I have never understood why "ctrl + enter" functionality is important. Does anyone have any stats for how widely used it is? Because I never use it myself. Why would Internet "newbies" use it when the results are unpredicatable?

Rubber Duck

5th July 2006, 06:11 AM

Well, I'm just considering all the possibilities - afterall, it took them 5 years to finish "introducing" xn-- prefixed domains - the smartest act ICANN has done for IDNs the past 6 years, as Giant has put it. :)

But, I also do not discount the end of year timeline that everyone here is talking about.

The US is simply deluding itself over how much authority it actually has. Registries are just lists and Root Servers largely belong to Verisign I guess, but if individual government wanted to they could requisition anything based on their soveriegn soil in the interests of national security. The US is in danger of splitting the Root and will most probably end up alone on the other side of the fence until something gets sorted out. All that would happen is the www. would get replaced with other strings and take you to different zones depending where you were. Most people would just you the default, but you could probably still access the entire internet if you knew which strings to input.

At the end of the day Verisign would protect its own interests which may not be aligned with those of the US Government or ICANN.

If you think Bush has done a good job up until now, well you have no concept of how stupid he would need to be to depart down this particular road. You might as well put Donald Duck in the White House.

I have never understood why "ctrl + enter" functionality is important. Does anyone have any stats for how widely used it is? Because I never use it myself. Why would Internet "newbies" use it when the results are unpredicatable?

Frankly, it is only a small group of Internet Officianados that actually know about this option, if that is what it is. It has no commericial significance whatsoever.

Extensionless query redirection is a separate and much more important subject.

dnid

5th July 2006, 06:59 AM

I have never understood why "ctrl + enter" functionality is important. Does anyone have any stats for how widely used it is? Because I never use it myself. Why would Internet "newbies" use it when the results are unpredicatable?

Shift+Enter = .net
Ctrl+Shift+Enter = .org

How many people use .net or .org because of the keys?

The king is still .com.

Rubber Duck

5th July 2006, 07:06 AM

Shift+Enter = .net
Ctrl+Shift+Enter = .org

How many people use .net or .org because of the keys?

The king is still .com.

Dot Com is king in the American psyche but that is by no means universal. Currently country codes dominate in both Germany and Russia. That might change in Russia with IDN, but in Germany dot DE is definitely King.

drbiohealth

5th July 2006, 07:12 AM

Well, this can only be significant if the masses use it, which appears not the case. Even I became aware of this short-hand technique after reading some post on this forum. If people prefer typing the complete URL in the address bar, the complexity of .extension of IDN will become important in deciding which .extension will ultimately be preferred. Normal logic: river water always follows the path of least resistance. Another secondary factor here is, which .extension would move faster and feed the masses first. Moreover, it needs to be seen how the end-user (industry) laps this opportunity.

I am curious to know if IDN.IDN .ccTLDs exist in chinese/japanese as of now? If they do, then ICANN needs to buck up before people there start getting addicted to IDN .ccTLDs.

I see that if there are no IDN.IDN ccTLDs for languages like Russian, Arabic, Indic for next two years or so, IDN.IDN in .com will have a chance there.

I have never understood why "ctrl + enter" functionality is important. Does anyone have any stats for how widely used it is? Because I never use it myself. Why would Internet "newbies" use it when the results are unpredicatable?

Rubber Duck

5th July 2006, 07:17 AM

Well, this can only be significant if the masses use it, which appears not the case. Even I became aware of this short-hand technique after reading some post on this forum. If people prefer typing the complete URL in the address bar, the complexity of .extension of IDN will become important in deciding which .extension will ultimately be preferred. Normal logic: river water always follows the path of least resistance. Another secondary factor here is, which .extension would move faster and feed the masses first. Moreover, it needs to be seen how the end-user (industry) laps this opportunity.

I am curious to know if IDN.IDN .ccTLDs exist in chinese/japanese as of now? If they do, then ICANN needs to buck up before people there start getting addicted to IDN .ccTLDs.

I see that if there are no IDN.IDN ccTLDs for languages like Russian, Arabic, Indic for next two years or so, IDN.IDN in .com will have a chance there.

Only Chinese and I believe Korean as well, but yes they do resolve. ICANN definitely needs to get it finger out of its arse, or it won't have one to sit on at all!

drbiohealth

5th July 2006, 07:21 AM

And, how popular are these IDN.IDN ccTLDs in these two countries? When did they initiate the IDN ccTLDs?

Only Chinese and I believe Korean as well, but yes they do resolve. ICANN definitely needs to get it finger out of its arse, or it won't have one to sit on at all!

Giant

5th July 2006, 07:24 AM

I have never understood why "ctrl + enter" functionality is important. Does anyone have any stats for how widely used it is? Because I never use it myself. Why would Internet "newbies" use it when the results are unpredicatable?

I was interested in this question 3 years ago when I tried to decide whether I should reg some ASCII.cn and IDN.cn domains when they were first introduced in 2003. Here's what I found:

-The Chinese tend to use Ctrl + Enter feature more compare to English speakers, maybe because they are not good typers as English speakers.

-In 2002, I got a copy of Chinese Windows 2000, and I believe most computer users in China used the same copy. The IE came with this Windows would send you to .com.cn by default after Ctrl + Enter. I tried to make some changes in the registry so that I could go to .com instead, but failed. The only way I succeeded doing it is deleted the whole IE and its folder and then downloaded and installed a fresh IE. It's fair to say very few users knew how to do this.

-In 2003 - 04 - 05, I noticed that .cn domains had very little traffic but .com.cn had a lot. Also, my IDNs.com were getting more and more traffic because new Windows like XP and 2003 are .com by default with Ctrl + Enter feature.

Before Mar. 1st this year, most Chinese traffic go to .com.cn, quite a few go to .com, but very few go to .cn.

My conclusion: Ctrl + Enter was being used quite frequently. If most Chinese users are typing .com.cn like English users do, then we should see traffic to .cn too.

Rubber Duck

5th July 2006, 07:26 AM

And, how popular are these IDN.IDN ccTLDs in these two countries?

Cannot really say as they run in parallel with IDN.CN and IDN.KR. I guess nobody will have split traffic data. We do know, however, that there very significant traffic on IDN.com in the languages of both countries and much of it is coming from Asia rather than Europe or the West.

I was interested in this question 3 years ago when I tried to decide whether I should reg some ASCII.cn and IDN.cn domains when they were first introduced in 2003. Here's what I found:

-The Chinese tend to use Ctrl + Enter feature more compare to English speakers, maybe because they are not good typers as English speakers.

-In 2002, I got a copy of Chinese Windows 2000, and I believe most computer users in China used the same copy. The IE came with this Windows would send you to .com.cn by default after Ctrl + Enter. I tried to make some changes in the registry so that I could go to .com instead, but failed. The only way I succeeded doing it is deleted the whole IE and its folder and then downloaded and installed a fresh IE. It's fair to say very few users knew how to do this.

-In 2003 - 04 - 05, I noticed that .cn domains had very little traffic but .com.cn had a lot. Also, my IDNs.com were getting more and more traffic because new Windows like XP and 2003 are .com by default with Ctrl + Enter feature.

Before Mar. 1st this year, most Chinese traffic go to .com.cn, quite a few go to .com, but very few go to .cn.

My conclusion: Ctrl + Enter was being used quite frequently. If most Chinese users are typing .com.cn like English users do, then we should see traffic to .cn too.

Thanks, very interesting. Well that would explain the dot CN scenario, although most content is going there now rather than .com.cn.

Seems unlikely that IE 7.0 is going to direct them com.cn. Has anyone downloaded the the Chinese version. I guess it will still go to dot Com?

drbiohealth

5th July 2006, 07:41 AM

Wouldn't that seem a fragile situation then depending on which way IE7 directs the traffic.

I was interested in this question 3 years ago when I tried to decide whether I should reg some ASCII.cn and IDN.cn domains when they were first introduced in 2003. Here's what I found:

-The Chinese tend to use Ctrl + Enter feature more compare to English speakers, maybe because they are not good typers as English speakers.

-In 2002, I got a copy of Chinese Windows 2000, and I believe most computer users in China used the same copy. The IE came with this Windows would send you to .com.cn by default after Ctrl + Enter. I tried to make some changes in the registry so that I could go to .com instead, but failed. The only way I succeeded doing it is deleted the whole IE and its folder and then downloaded and installed a fresh IE. It's fair to say very few users knew how to do this.

-In 2003 - 04 - 05, I noticed that .cn domains had very little traffic but .com.cn had a lot. Also, my IDNs.com were getting more and more traffic because new Windows like XP and 2003 are .com by default with Ctrl + Enter feature.

Before Mar. 1st this year, most Chinese traffic go to .com.cn, quite a few go to .com, but very few go to .cn.

My conclusion: Ctrl + Enter was being used quite frequently. If most Chinese users are typing .com.cn like English users do, then we should see traffic to .cn too.

Do you mean IDNs of these extensions, or simple ASCII?

Thanks, very interesting. Well that would explain the dot CN scenario, although most content is going there now rather than .com.cn.

Giant

5th July 2006, 07:51 AM

Wouldn't that seem a fragile situation then depending on which way IE7 directs the traffic.

Yes, that's my first concern for my IDN.coms :). I also know that CNNIC also tries to get .CN as default for Ctrl + Enter in IE7, but I think they won't get it.

Chinese IE7 Beta is not available yet.

Rubber Duck

5th July 2006, 07:52 AM

Wouldn't that seem a fragile situation then depending on which way IE7 directs the traffic.

Do you mean IDNs of these extensions, or simple ASCII?

Well a bit of both, but as an extension the importance of com.cn is flagging by the day.

Yes, that's my first concern for my IDN.coms :). I also know that CNNIC also tries to get .CN as default for Ctrl + Enter in IE7, but I think they won't get it.

Chinese IE7 Beta is not available yet.

Well you tell us. It appeared to me as though it was:

http://www.microsoft.com/china/windows/ie/default.mspx

domainguru

5th July 2006, 09:08 AM

I was interested in this question 3 years ago when I tried to decide whether I should reg some ASCII.cn and IDN.cn domains when they were first introduced in 2003. Here's what I found:

-The Chinese tend to use Ctrl + Enter feature more compare to English speakers, maybe because they are not good typers as English speakers.

-In 2002, I got a copy of Chinese Windows 2000, and I believe most computer users in China used the same copy. The IE came with this Windows would send you to .com.cn by default after Ctrl + Enter. I tried to make some changes in the registry so that I could go to .com instead, but failed. The only way I succeeded doing it is deleted the whole IE and its folder and then downloaded and installed a fresh IE. It's fair to say very few users knew how to do this.

-In 2003 - 04 - 05, I noticed that .cn domains had very little traffic but .com.cn had a lot. Also, my IDNs.com were getting more and more traffic because new Windows like XP and 2003 are .com by default with Ctrl + Enter feature.

Before Mar. 1st this year, most Chinese traffic go to .com.cn, quite a few go to .com, but very few go to .cn.

My conclusion: Ctrl + Enter was being used quite frequently. If most Chinese users are typing .com.cn like English users do, then we should see traffic to .cn too.

Interesting, but are you actually saying you *know* Chinese people use Ctrl-Enter frequently, or just your research suggest that is likely? Because there is always more than one explanation for everything :)

Seems strange to me anyone would type an ASCII domain name, and then have "difficulty" typing .com ... surely that is the easy part?

Also, even if it is true that the Chinese use Ctrl-Enter, it sounds like a Chinese-only
thing to me. I've never seen a Thai use Ctrl-Enter, and like others, I had never even heard of this "shortcut" until I came to this forum.

touchring

5th July 2006, 09:19 AM

domainguru

5th July 2006, 09:37 AM

I personally find it faster to type .com than press some alt or ctrl key, but Giant brought up a point no one else brought up to date - that is the transition from .com.cn to .cn. .com.cn came about first, and most people still have the habit of typing .com.cn. It's like sina.com.cn, most people are used to typing that .com.cn. The same case for .co.jp versus .jp.

I am asking a very simple question here. Does Giant "know" that Chinese people use Ctrl-Enter extensively, or is it an educated guess? The two are not the same.

Rubber Duck

5th July 2006, 09:48 AM

I am asking a very simple question here. Does Giant "know" that Chinese people use Ctrl-Enter extensively, or is it an educated guess? The two are not the same.

Yes, and do we know that he knows or are we just making an educated guess that his is making an educated guess? Only Giant can answer that one!

Giant

5th July 2006, 04:10 PM

Interesting, but are you actually saying you *know* Chinese people use Ctrl-Enter frequently, or just your research suggest that is likely? Because there is always more than one explanation for everything :)

Seems strange to me anyone would type an ASCII domain name, and then have "difficulty" typing .com ... surely that is the easy part?

Also, even if it is true that the Chinese use Ctrl-Enter, it sounds like a Chinese-only
thing to me. I've never seen a Thai use Ctrl-Enter, and like others, I had never even heard of this "shortcut" until I came to this forum.
Ctrl-Enter is a hot topic among Chinese IE users, you can find a lot of posts in Chinese forums talking about this feature. I also saw the Chinese use this feature often when I was in China 2001 - 2002.

That's what I saw, but what's the number of people that use it, I tried to find out. And the traffic from my domains ASCII.cn, ASCII.com.cn, and IDN.com in the last 3 years as I stated above show Chinese do use Ctrl-Enter frequently.

2 more supports for my conclusion:

-Google started using google.cn for Chinese Google site since last year, most Chinese know that. But Google still doesn't get much traffic from google.cn, most of its traffic is still from google.com. Reason --> people are used to Ctrl-Enter, and google.com.cn is redirected to google.com (NOT .cn).

-For finding out this, I purposely regged a popular US telecom company name xxxxx.com.cn in 2003. This company didn't have business in China, but some Chinese are familiar with its name. I got more than 100 hits per month on xxxxx.com.cn, about half of the hits were from North America and another half from China. Now how to explain this? Actually, the hits were all accidental by pressing Ctrl-Enter from 2 groups of people. 1) Some people in China tried to access this company at xxxxx.com. 2) Some Chinese in North America (from China) still using that copy of Chinese Windows 2000.

If it's not by pressing Ctrl-Enter, it's hard to explain why people would type .com.cn extention for a US telephone company (in US). You may try to argue that most Chinese are too used to TYPING .COM.CN extention, but in fact, .COM is more popular in China.

As long as that copy of Chinese Windows 2000 is still being popular (it IS right now), .COM.CN will still get most of the traffic.

drbiohealth

6th July 2006, 02:01 AM

This perhaps supports your argument in a way.

http://www.google.com/trends?q=google.com%2C+google.cn%2C+google.com.cn&ctab=0&geo=CN&date=all

And if that (Ctrl-Enter) were the case, the stakes are extremely high on what IE7 would resolve to. I suspect the results would be extreme - if IE7 is favorable, .com chinese IDNs would sky rocket else there is a danger that it might lose out to other extensions.

Another (Ctrl-Enter) thingy that reflects here is that .com chinese IDNs would not then depend on the outcome of IDN.IDN. However at the same time, one question that arises here is, if DNAME is NOT preferred over the OTHER stuff, then the situation might be totally screwed. Where will the browser land then????

Ctrl-Enter is a hot topic among Chinese IE users, you can find a lot of posts in Chinese forums talking about this feature. I also saw the Chinese use this feature often when I was in China 2001 - 2002.

That's what I saw, but what's the number of people that use it, I tried to find out. And the traffic from my domains ASCII.cn, ASCII.com.cn, and IDN.com in the last 3 years as I stated above show Chinese do use Ctrl-Enter frequently.

2 more supports for my conclusion:

-Google started using google.cn for Chinese Google site since last year, most Chinese know that. But Google still doesn't get much traffic from google.cn, most of its traffic is still from google.com. Reason --> people are used to Ctrl-Enter, and google.com.cn is redirected to google.com (NOT .cn).

-For finding out this, I purposely regged a popular US telecom company name xxxxx.com.cn in 2003. This company didn't have business in China, but some Chinese are familiar with its name. I got more than 100 hits per month on xxxxx.com.cn, about half of the hits were from North America and another half from China. Now how to explain this? Actually, the hits were all accidental by pressing Ctrl-Enter from 2 groups of people. 1) Some people in China tried to access this company at xxxxx.com. 2) Some Chinese in North America (from China) still using that copy of Chinese Windows 2000.

If it's not by pressing Ctrl-Enter, it's hard to explain why people would type .com.cn extention for a US telephone company (in US). You may try to argue that most Chinese are too used to TYPING .COM.CN extention, but in fact, .COM is more popular in China.

As long as that copy of Chinese Windows 2000 is still being popular (it IS right now), .COM.CN will still get most of the traffic.

Giant

6th July 2006, 04:52 AM

And if that (Ctrl-Enter) were the case, the stakes are extremely high on what IE7 would resolve to. I suspect the results would be extreme - if IE7 is favorable, .com chinese IDNs would sky rocket else there is a danger that it might lose out to other extensions.

Yes, the stakes are extreme, that's why I am a bit careful in regging IDN.coms. I started collecting traffic revenue from Chinese IDN.coms 3 years ago. At first it's not much, but I got about $1,000 - $2,000 around the end of 2004, and more in 2005. SilverClicks started in September 2005, and IDN traffic revenue is getting even better. In July 2005, I prepare a list of 2000 names but did not reg them because I was not sure where Ctrl-Enter would point to. This is the only problem I care, I don't worry about China would split the internet, they won't. Now 95% of names in that list are taken (not by me).

I started using Ctrl-Enter in 1997, I know very well why Chinese like to use this feature but not good typers in English speaking world, but it's too long a story to tell :)

... if DNAME is NOT preferred over the OTHER stuff, then the situation might be totally screwed. Where will the browser land then????

If DNAME is not doable, then 2 possibilities:

1) People will try to set up hundreds "XN--" TLDs as we heard last week. Obviously, there will be no technical problem with this option if the Root can take long name domains. BUT US DOC will not approve it at the final moment, I can tell by the tones of some people at ICANN.

2) People will set up hundreds of "XN--" TLDs just to resolve and redirect IDNs. Technically, these TLDs are no different from .NET or .INFO..., but legally, they are not legal registries and they don't take registration for names. The only job they do is to forward traffics, so they don't need the "approval" from DOC.

If option 2) is what we will get, then no need to worry where the browser will land.

touchring

6th July 2006, 05:06 AM

Yes, the stakes are extreme, that's why I am a bit careful in regging IDN.coms. I started collecting traffic revenue from Chinese IDN.coms 3 years ago. At first it's not much, but I got about $1,000 - $2,000 around the end of 2004, and more in 2005. SilverClicks started in September 2005, and IDN traffic revenue is getting even better. In July 2005, I prepare a list of 2000 names but did not reg them because I was not sure where Ctrl-Enter would point to. This is the only problem I care, I don't worry about China would split the internet, they won't. Now 95% of names in that list are taken (not by me).

I started using Ctrl-Enter in 1997, I know very well why Chinese like to use this feature but not good typers in English speaking world, but it's too long a story to tell :)

If DNAME is not doable, then 2 possibilities:

1) People will try to set up hundreds "XN--" TLDs as we heard last week. Obviously, there will be no technical problem with this option if the Root can take long name domains. BUT US DOC will not approve it at the final moment, I can tell by the tones of some people at ICANN.

2) People will set up hundreds of "XN--" TLDs just to resolve and redirect IDNs. Technically, these TLDs are no different from .NET or .INFO..., but legally, they are not legal registries and they don't take registration for names. The only job they do is to forward traffics, so they don't need the "approval" from DOC.

If option 2) is what we will get, then no need to worry where the browser will land.

Ctrl-Enter is an interesting finding, and will make idn.idn for Chinese dispensable since there's no need to switch keys.

Here's an anonymous survey to find out what people are using, multiple selections allowed :) - http://www.idnforums.com/forums/4729-how-do-you-enter-the-com-or-net-extension-for-idn.html