Japanese IDN performance question

[markits]

I have a TM-free Japanese domain that is receiving about 50 uniques and $35+ rev monthly. Is this stats typical for good Japanese IDNs?

Thanks

[Olney]

It's not exactly typical for "now" I think after they straighten out indexing on the Parking Programs there should be many domains like this.

There's plenty of domains according to OVT bids that generally get over $1 bids.

1. Did you optimize it?
2. Is the domain indexed in the search engines?

[gammascalper]

Assuming you have a 30% CTR, that's 15 clicks at over $2.00 each.

That's an outperformer I would say and better than any of my generic Japanese names.

[IDNCowboy]

Am I the only one here not getting that much $ and traffic to my idns?

[markits]

The CTR is amazingly 60%. The domain is creditcard dot com, which has 81 ovt score (domain term). I presume traffic is purely type-ins.

[gammascalper]

If your CTR is 60% then you receive 30 clicks at a little over $1 a click. The max ovt bid is 400 Yen.

On the other hand, I got a click for a pet term for $2 today and the max ovt bid is 81 Yen! :confused:

If ND uses the Google Japan feed and not Yahoo, that could explain the discrepancy.

[Olney]

OK I can explain to you why you get so many clicks...

1st

Good domains in Japanese didn't really exist before. People used to use any domain.

So some people ACTUALLY named their site with IDN.com even though their URL wasn't anything remotely close to this domain name.

There is a site claiming to be CC.com in Japanese even though the domain doesn't reflect it.

It's the same with my Haken dot com (career term) there is some company naming themselves haken dot com but their URL is not even remotely close.

For some reason the domain optimization reset but I think it will make $5 on a good day itself. It gets about 60% to 75% CTR when optimized...

[rhys]

The same for me with "nakata.net" "nyugan.com", "fuzoku.tv", "kusuriya.com", "sefure.com", and "rabuho.com" - to name just a few generic terms I discovered have websites using the Japanese equivalents as their brand. Only 2 of them are indexed right now, but once IE7 is released and people adapt to typing in domain names - watch out - the traffic train is headed my way.

As to your original question - I think your site is a clear outlyer, most of us would love to have a single site earning $35 bucks a month.

[Olney]

But Rhys I assume yours at least ARE the domains in romaji.

The one for Haken & CC are NOT EVEN CLOSE to the domain in romaji

More like

0007fc.com/job/

Really...
Users have no choice but to search or try to type it in.

[touchring]

But Rhys I assume yours at least ARE the domains in romaji.

The one for Haken & CC are NOT EVEN CLOSE to the domain in romaji

More like

0007fc.com/job/

Really...
Users have no choice but to search or try to type it in.


It's a bonus, but if they can prove using archive.org that they have started branding the site that way BEFORE you registered the name, i wonder if they would have the right of claim since the name is getting traffic as a result of their branding efforts? There have been precedent WIPO cases where generics are recognized as trademarks.

Knowing that common law can be extremely unpredictable - as compared to super rigid European laws, i think this area is a cause of concern.

[rhys]

It's a bonus, but if they can prove using archive.org that they have started branding the site that way BEFORE you registered the name, i wonder if they would have the right of claim since the name is getting traffic as a result of their branding efforts? There have been precedent WIPO cases where generics are recognized as trademarks.

Knowing that common law can be extremely unpredictable - as compared to super rigid European laws, i think this area is a cause of concern.

It is a good question. I note that in some cases for my domains, more than one site is branding using that domain name. I think here it is hard to claim TM.

In the US, I think the law is clear that an extension cannot be used within a TM claim. So Fuuzoku.tv may try to claim ownership over my 風俗.tv with the argument that "Fuuzoku" is their established trademark (uh...yeah..goodluck) but according to u.s. law anyway they could not claim "fuuzoku.tv" as a trademark because it contains the extension. Of course, I'm not sure where the jurisdiction for a case would fall. Any lawyers in the house?

[IDNCowboy]

It is a good question. I note that in some cases for my domains, more than one site is branding using that domain name. I think here it is hard to claim TM.

In the US, I think the law is clear that an extension cannot be used within a TM claim. So Fuuzoku.tv may try to claim ownership over my 風俗.tv with the argument that "Fuuzoku" is their established trademark (uh...yeah..goodluck) but according to u.s. law anyway they could not claim "fuuzoku.tv" as a trademark because it contains the extension. Of course, I'm not sure where the jurisdiction for a case would fall. Any lawyers in the house?
You can TM your name and extension (.com etc). A major company goes by this...... "Hotels.com" .

A few have offered the service to me but I have trademarked my websites as Two Words so I can go after who I feel is violating my TM.

[Olney]

That's like saying you own the URL

http : www. 88777hippo.com / userflex/08

& you call it Anime.com

& they give you Anime.com

It doesn't even coincide with the Romaji at all. They had a chance to get IDNs...
What about whoever owns the romaji?

What if I register ha-ken.com still the same in Japanese...

This is one of the reasons why the IDN has to be seperate from Romaji. In ever instance of a term in Romaji I can amost guarantee more than 50% of the time there's another way to write the IDN in Romaji.

If they owned the actually correct romaji, there's a minute slim chance. Their url has no resemblance to haken dot com or CC. These are pure Japanese premium generics.

I mean ccdot.com or hakendot.com would be better than what they have...

[IDNCowboy]

That's like saying you own the URL

http : www. 88777hippo.com / userflex/08

& you call it Anime.com

& they give you Anime.com

It doesn't even coincide with the Romaji at all. They had a chance to get IDNs...
What about whoever owns the romaji?

What if I register ha-ken.com still the same in Japanese...

This is one of the reasons why the IDN has to be seperate from Romaji. In ever instance of a term in Romaji I can amost guarantee more than 50% of the time there's another way to write the IDN in Romaji.

If they owned the actually correct romaji, there's a minute slim chance. Their url has no resemblance to haken dot com or CC. These are pure Japanese premium generics.

I mean ccdot.com or hakendot.com would be better than what they have...
Olney

I'm not making this up. It's possible. You can scan the USPTO database ;-). Plenty of names with extensions. I've consulted with a lawyer many times to trademark many of my established website businesses. He does it regularly for some of his other clients.

Is one of the reasons why I totally avoided spanish and french.

[touchring]

It is a good question. I note that in some cases for my domains, more than one site is branding using that domain name. I think here it is hard to claim TM.

In the US, I think the law is clear that an extension cannot be used within a TM claim. So Fuuzoku.tv may try to claim ownership over my 風俗.tv with the argument that "Fuuzoku" is their established trademark (uh...yeah..goodluck) but according to u.s. law anyway they could not claim "fuuzoku.tv" as a trademark because it contains the extension. Of course, I'm not sure where the jurisdiction for a case would fall. Any lawyers in the house?



But anyway, if Fuuzoku.tv engages a lawyer to fight the case, they are likely to win (money wins cases). So are you also going to engage a lawyer? Either way, the domainer loses. The moment someone tries to contest a domain, the domainer loses.

[rhys]

You can TM your name and extension (.com etc). A major company goes by this...... "Hotels.com" .

A few have offered the service to me but I have trademarked my websites as Two Words so I can go after who I feel is violating my TM.

I am referring to US trademark law:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/notices/guide299.htm

"If a mark is composed of a generic term(s) for applicant’s goods or services and a TLD, the examining attorney must refuse registration on the ground that the mark is generic and the TLD has no trademark significance. See TMEP §1209.01(b)(12) regarding marks comprised in part of "1-800" or other telephone numbers. Marks comprised of generic terms combined with TLDs are not eligible for registration on the Supplemental Register, or on the Principal Register under Trademark Act §2(f), 15 U.S.C. §1052(f). This applies to trademarks, service marks, collective marks and certification marks.


Example: TURKEY.COM for frozen turkeys is unregistrable on either the
Principal or Supplemental Register.
Example: BANK.COM for banking services is unregistrable on either the
Principal or Supplemental Register"

[markits]

Olney gives very good points.
A few extra thoughts I have:

1. The ascii creditcard dot com owner won't automatically claim ownership to my Jap cc com.

2. My domain (cc.com) was registered way before the other domains/sites that are using my domain name as titles. I can accuse them for abusing my internet property.

3. I believe rhys' domains are safe too since they are generic, unless other people have filed TMs on these term before rhys regged these domains, which is unlikely.

[rhys]

But anyway, if Fuuzoku.tv engages a lawyer to fight the case, they are likely to win (money wins cases). So are you also going to engage a lawyer? Either way, the domainer loses. The moment someone tries to contest a domain, the domainer loses.

I guess in my case it is good that I'm the only one of 4 college roommates not to become a lawyer. :)

But seriously, one would have to make a bet that the Japanese would rather find accomodation if necessary than call a lawyer. With only a couple of thousand of them in the country, they are scarce and expensive.

[touchring]

Olney

I'm not making this up. It's possible. You can scan the USPTO database ;-). Plenty of names with extensions. I've consulted with a lawyer many times to trademark many of my established website businesses. He does it regularly for some of his other clients.

Is one of the reasons why I totally avoided spanish and french.


Yes, previously, i mentioned once about pre-emptive trademark registration. Is there any online trademark service in the US? Those of sort that costs maybe $300 to register a trademark?

So, say if Rhys trademarks his "風俗.tv" , so if Fuuzoku.tv wants to play, he got a "closer" trademark and a triumph card to defend his domain in court. :p

Guys, let's talk about this, if we are going to pre-empt, we have to do it quick!

[markits]

I guess in my case it is good that I'm the only one of 4 college roommates not to become a lawyer. :)

But seriously, one would have to make a bet that the Japanese would rather find accomodation if necessary than call a lawyer. With only a couple of thousand of them in the country, they are scarce and expensive.


That's very good news indeed!

[rhys]

Yes, previously, i mentioned once about pre-emptive trademark registration. Is there any online trademark service in the US? Those of sort that costs maybe $300 to register a trademark?

So, say if Rhys trademarks his 風俗.tv , so if Fuuzoku.tv wants to play, he got a "closer" trademark and key point to defend his domain in court. :p

idn, i understand you are in the legal circle, any comments?

Again as per my post above, if jurisdiction did happen to be in the U.S. for a ruling, I do not think I would be able to register 風俗.tv as a trademark anyway. It is generic and the TLD cannot be used as a basis for differentiation.

[markits]

Yes, previously, i mentioned once about pre-emptive trademark registration. Is there any online trademark service in the US? Those of sort that costs maybe $300 to register a trademark?

So, say if Rhys trademarks his "風俗.tv" , so if Fuuzoku.tv wants to play, he got a "closer" trademark and a triumph card to defend his domain in court. :p

Guys, let's talk about this, if we are going to pre-empt, we have to do it quick!

Touch, see what rhys has pointed out:
Marks comprised of generic terms combined with TLDs are not eligible for registration on the Supplemental Register, or on the Principal Register under Trademark Act §2(f), 15 U.S.C. §1052(f). This applies to trademarks, service marks, collective marks and certification marks.

I think "風俗.tv" is a generic term combined with a TLD.

[touchring]

Touch, see what rhys has pointed out:
Marks comprised of generic terms combined with TLDs are not eligible for registration on the Supplemental Register, or on the Principal Register under Trademark Act §2(f), 15 U.S.C. §1052(f). This applies to trademarks, service marks, collective marks and certification marks.

I think "風俗.tv" is a generic term combined with a TLD.


This is American law, how about UK or Australian law? btw, i remembered that cc.com was owned by TDC? Are you TDC?

[rhys]

This is American law, how about UK or Australian law? btw, i remembered that cc.com was owned by TDC? Are you TDC?

I don't know about them, but so far Japanese law seems a little more vague on the matter of domain name trademarks. I'm curious if anyone has any answers.

[markits]

I don't have any clue on them either.

I am not TDC. I bought it from the previous owner.

[touchring]

I don't have any clue on them either.

I am not TDC. I bought it from the previous owner.


Maybe i saw wrongly, because i thought i saw TDC. I'm sure others here have seen it earlier as well.

[Olney]

I should have quoted it
I was responding to Touchring's question.
Hotel.com I can easily see it being able to get a trademark.

http:// fy7000u.com/usr809/career

Calling their site
Career.com
& getting a trademark for Career.com

This is the situation I'm talking about.


Olney

I'm not making this up. It's possible. You can scan the USPTO database ;-). Plenty of names with extensions. I've consulted with a lawyer many times to trademark many of my established website businesses. He does it regularly for some of his other clients.

Is one of the reasons why I totally avoided spanish and french.

[Edwin]

They may be able to get a trademark for the domain if they write it in some unique, fancy way i.e. if they trademark it as a "logo mark" rather than as the word itself. It's convoluted, but it just might work...

[blastfromthepast]

Is Visa or MasterCard, suing card.com or creditcard.com domain owners? No. Unlikely they would win either.

[Drewbert]

Since Chinese script is meaningless in the US legal system, you might be able to TM it as a design mark rather than a word mark. Like the Nike swish or the Coke swirl.

Then, if you have it registered through a US registrar, a UDRP falls back to US law on appeal, and your designmark trumps the Chinese TM.

IANAL, YMMV, YADDA YADDA.

[blastfromthepast]

I don't think that is the case. Do a careful search and you will find that while listed in Latin, foreign words are noted as such "Which means … in … language."

[Olney]

but....
Having done this myself

They do send your application to be reviewed by a lawyer if you try to get a Chinese charater trademarked. They also want to know the translation of it.

[Rubber Duck]

but....
Having done this myself

They do send your application to be reviewed by a lawyer if you try to get a Chinese charater trademarked. They also want to know the translation of it.

That may be so, but it is substantially irrelevant in law. The translation is probably only for referencing purposes, as it the appearance rather than the meaning that register rights over.

[Olney]

well the initial issue is rights to the domain...
I think we all could care less if someone had the rights to specific logo.

I trademark

Characters.com

I own a domain that looks nothing remotely close to Characters.com

I never own the domain but trademark it.

Do I own the right to the domain?

This is the case with me & Markits for our revenue producing domains.

They both are 2 completely generic terms that we both found out afterwards someone has put a logo on their site saying "Something.com" but the URL is not remotely close to being this.

We are certainly not going to be using their image, nor logo.

[Rubber Duck]

well the initial issue is rights to the domain...
I think we all could care less if someone had the rights to specific logo.

I trademark

Characters.com

I own a domain that looks nothing remotely close to Characters.com

I never own the domain but trademark it.

Do I own the right to the domain?

This is the case with me & Markits for our revenue producing domains.

They both are 2 completely generic terms that we both found out afterwards someone has put a logo on their site saying "Something.com" but the URL is not remotely close to being this.

We are certainly not going to be using their image, nor logo.


I think to understand the question you would have to indicate clearly what is in English and what is in Japanese.

I think I saw something on an Email about Sex.EU being trademark.

Firstly, it was without the extension. Sex was trademarked but not in any categories relating to the Sex Industry. You can arbitrarily register any Generic in a category where it has no meaning. For the purposes of Wipo this not very useful as it is generic and there may be 30 odd other similar registrations. You would have to show bad faith, which is not reasonably possilble. Unless the judge is senile old codger, so perhaps you would have some chance after all.

With Dot EU the system was ludicrous, because the way they formulated and interpreted the rules was non-sensical. The criteria used here and those that should be used at WIPO are entirely different. Don't forget one was about making a case for being awarded a registration wheras the other is making a case for the existing registrant to be deprived of the domain. Clearly two different situations and two different sets of criteria.