IDN Aquisitions

[Olney]

As most of us are members of here & DNF, DNF seems to have a section called
Aquisitions

This section will open Aug. 24, 2006 and will be a private section where we will test and pay revenue multiples for all domains you wish to sell.

Before it opened I know it's going to be a hot topic so how do you guys think it will be.

I for think that God Bless Adam for the amount of domains that's going to be thrown at him. I think he can easily spot the value with ASCII Domains but with IDNs we are probably going to have to provide info guys.

We don't know exactly how that section will go. IDNs won't do good just based on traffic & we all know that.

If you are thinking of preparing domains for sale think about presentation a bit.
I personally suck at it, but I'll admit it.

Also the way you present your first or second batch might be remembered. If you write
These are the best Premium Domains you can find or hype it up & it isn't
Then you've just wasted their expectations of what you have.

Many of you actually do have the best IDNs out there.
I just want you guys to realize his staff is going to get flooded this week with domains.

Think about presentation beforehand

1. Try to offer accurate translation
2. Try to offer the actual way it is used (There are words that have multiple meanings)
3. Offer a few stats (Don't overdo it)

Few good things to mention might be:

You can check it on Google Trends
more than 40 advertisers are bidding on this term in OVT

If he has natives on board doing the checking it's a lot easier. So the section hasn't started yet, & I don't think it's instant aquisitions but trying to give those guys an easier job would be better for all.

Any thoughts? I have no problem with discussing how to sell if it means better sales for members.

[domainstosell]

These are great points.

I think some major education will be needed to overcome the idea of buying IDNs based on traffic. We know that the potential is huge, but from a bulk-buy decision (which I have a feeling most of the acquisitions will be), many IDNs won't stack up numbers-wise (yet).

I think the important points will be advertisers buying the keyword and the amount of ads serving on Google. It shows a high probability of marketability for the domain, as well as reinforcing the point that if advertisers are willing to pay for it, it has value as a term/keyword/domain.

[touchring]

I would suggest you guys read what the big players on DS are saying about iREIT's buying habits. btw, DCG started that thread - http://www.domainstate.com/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=67109

[thefabfive]

I don't believe now would be the time to sell IDN via this new DNF section. What kind of multiples are we going to be asking? 20 years, 100 years? These multiples won't fly, even though DCG knows the deal with IDNs.

For those wishing to sell, IDNF is still the best place.

[domainstosell]

I agree with many of the posters in the DS thread. I've never been completely satisfied with the "sales based on multiples" approach, because of the fact that a domain name has more value or ways to monetize it that just ppc. Of course, it is a difference between selling to resellers/ppc aggregators and selling to end-users...

I don't believe now would be the time to sell IDN via this new DNF section. What kind of multiples are we going to be asking? 20 years, 100 years? These multiples won't fly, even though DCG knows the deal with IDNs.

For those wishing to sell, IDNF is still the best place.

More than that in some (or many?) cases: RD's "translation" domain sold for, what, 420 years? I'm not saying it was a bad deal; I believe it was a steal at $9,000 based on future potential of IDNs and the quality of traffic it was currently getting, extrapolated out to post-IE7 levels, but at face value, it was a huge multiple...

[touchring]

I agree with many of the posters in the DS thread. I've never been completely satisfied with the "sales based on multiples" approach, because of the fact that a domain name has more value or ways to monetize it that just ppc. Of course, it is a difference between selling to resellers/ppc aggregators and selling to end-users....


Yup, you got it, problem is, there are no end users here. An end user won't even bother to ask about traffic. But in my opinion, getting a fair offer from a real end user is like hitting a lottery prize.

[thegenius1]

An end user won't even bother to ask about traffic.


You head the Nail On the Head !

[Olney]

I think before it opens we don't know IF IDNs are going to be bought based on traffic for A & B grade premium generics in competitive markets.
Since the current parking programs aren't 100% fixed yet traffic stats are way under what they should be.
I'm not downplaying our home either but IF fair pricing is available then it's good to discuss options.

[touchring]

I think before it opens we don't know IF IDNs are going to be bought based on traffic for A & B grade premium generics in competitive markets.
Since the current parking programs aren't 100% fixed yet traffic stats are way under what they should be.
I'm not downplaying our home either but IF fair pricing is available then it's good to discuss options.


I think for top Japanese and Chinese generics, the A grade you are talking about, there's going to be a min. base price of maybe a couple grand. So far, at least this is what we are seeing for the recent translation.com sale.

Given that most of us only got one or two, or a few A grade names, we can't depend on such sales to help pay the mortgage. The market has to develop further, or we just got to wait for PPC to grow.

[rhys]

This is a good thread that Olney started. I fear for all the garbage that the Acquisitions section is going to receive and I doubt I will submit anything. Some efforts by everyone to maintain the image of IDNs as a valuable asset class with a powerful growth story is important.

As for myself, I didn't get into IDNs to sell them. I got into them so that I could sleep at night and carry out my day job while my bank account could grow and grow. I'll sell off some here and there because realistically, I cannot ever develop everything. But I'm in for the long haul.

Lately I've been reading a book called "Microsoft in the Mirror" it is a collection of monologues from ex-Microsoft employees from the startup years. One thing I notice is so many of them saying, "I wish I'd held onto my stock options longer instead of cashing them in to buy a car. That car cost me millions."

[alpha]

You are right, it will be inundated with domains.

There will more likely be too many to give individual appraisals; it will simply be s straight traffic calc.

"brandable" names with little traffic and IDN's will just fall through the net at this time.

If you have to sell. Sell here. If you can hold, and wait. Hold and wait.

[touchring]

Lately I've been reading a book called "Microsoft in the Mirror" it is a collection of monologues from ex-Microsoft employees from the startup years. One thing I notice is so many of them saying, "I wish I'd held onto my stock options longer instead of cashing them in to buy a car. That car cost me millions."


Without wanting to imply it has anything to do with domains at all, for every microsoft employee that said that, there's another 1000 dotcommer that said, "i wish i had sold all my stocks before the bubble burst!".

For me, i wish i had spent my fundings on domains instead of those dot coms.

[Rubber Duck]

Before you sell check this out:

xn--igbmiu.com أجرة Rental

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%D8%A3%D8%AC%D8%B1%D8%A9&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

and I have got around to doing any clever stuff with these yet!

[alpha]

Before you sell check this out:

xn--igbmiu.com أجرة Rental

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%D8%A3%D8%AC%D8%B1%D8%A9&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

and I have got around to doing any clever stuff with these yet!

thats an interesting one.

First and second place on the podium.

I checked the US ovt, expecting it to be another RD megaton-bomb... but it's not. In fact I can't see anything remarkable about this name.

apart from it has awesome serp.

[Rubber Duck]

thats an interesting one.

First and second place on the podium.

I checked the US ovt, expecting it to be another RD megaton-bomb... but it's not. In fact I can't see anything remarkable about this name.

apart from it has awesome serp.

I think it means RENTAL, but I am sure one of the Arabic speakers will know. I wouldn't got too much by US Overture!

The boys at the American Chamber of Commerce in Cairo seemed pretty impressed with that and didn't question the translation.

[Olney]

Since the section isn't open we can only speculate about pricing
but no matter what we "discuss" when those gates open I can't expect for less than a few hundred IDNs to be put up.
My point is this is for those who bring the cows to market, put some signs around the dang thing.

We can't just assume what level iREIT is at with IDNs either. I too thought that IDNs would be put on the back burner but if his statements are we'll see the IDN market pickup, then I assume prices can't be "just" based on traffic. We'll have to see though.

[domainstosell]

Since the section isn't open we can only speculate about pricing
but no matter what we "discuss" when those gates open I can't expect for less than a few hundred IDNs to be put up.
My point is this is for those who bring the cows to market, put some signs around the dang thing.

We can't just assume what level iREIT is at with IDNs either. I too thought that IDNs would be put on the back burner but if his statements are we'll see the IDN market pickup, then I assume prices can't be "just" based on traffic. We'll have to see though.

I may be wrong in my assumption, but with the amount of names that will be thrown at them through the section at DNF, they probably won't take the time to personally respond to everyone (any more than a stock "thanks, but no thanks" email or pm).

If people are seriously considering selling IDN portfolios, would they be better served to go through iREIT's site? I haven't done that with IDNs, but I did a while back with ASCII names, and got a phone call from one of their buyers. At least that way, you have the opportunity for some on-on-one salesmanship and the chance to educate.

[alpha]

I think it means RENTAL, but I am sure one of the Arabic speakers will know. I wouldn't got too much by US Overture!

The boys at the American Chamber of Commerce in Cairo seemed pretty impressed with that and didn't question the translation.

I wasn't appraising it.

in fact quite the opposite. My point was it's a good name shown by the interest you have received in it, but I wouldn't have known that from running it through the usual stats.

Just another example of why we shouldn't really drop anything that translates ok this side of traffic.

[555]

This is a part of iREIT response from some time ago (ascii,not idn's)

Sounds like you have a good list of domain names. However, I don't think
that we could get there on pricing terms with you if you're running a
competitive bid process and expect to sell the name for vanity purposes.

Our primary focus is acquiring domain names/portfolios generating
substantial traffic & revenue for multiples of cash flow. We don't
"speculate" on many assets and your domain wouldn't be a strategic purchase
for us (e.g. it doesn't have unique portfolio synergies).

If it turns out that you can't sell it for "strategic" prices, we'd be happy
to look at a purchase, but would need the traffic & current revenue and we
would need to understand the price at which you'd sell the domains (and be
sure that we would be able to financially justify the purchase off existing
revenue).

Thanks for your interest in iREIT.

Bob




Bob Martin, CEO
Internet REIT, L.P.

[thegenius1]

My point was it's a good name shown by the interest you have received in it, but I wouldn't have known that from running it through the usual stats.

Just another example of why we shouldn't really drop anything that translates ok this side of traffic.

Also another reason why Major Money Industries dont always have to fit the profile of the usual stats .

[Olney]

Hey Touch
what makes you say that?
The forum starter has a profile on all forums that is pretty consistant.


I would suggest you guys read what the big players on DS are saying about iREIT's buying habits. btw, DCG started that thread - http://www.domainstate.com/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=67109

[555]

IMO i dont believe in submitting nothing to no one...when you want to buy the shirt, you go and buy it...when someone comes to you and wants to sell it to you, you just dont want it.

They or others will get to whatever names they feel they need to own

[Olney]

I personally don't think IREIT put Adam in charge to "just" go by their current standards of domain buying. They made the guy head of aquisitions. Personally this means a lot in my book. He's a Pro.
A forum partnership could have been done if they just wanted domains.
If it was a forum partnership then I wouldn't look forward to any changes, but in the past year I've been an active member on DNF I could see the guy doesn't exactly stand still.

& with the way domaining works in general, someone will sell.

[Rubber Duck]

I personally don't think IREIT put Adam in charge to "just" go by their current standards of domain buying. They made the guy head of aquisitions. Personally this means a lot in my book. He's a Pro.
A forum partnership could have been done if they just wanted domains.
If it was a forum partnership then I wouldn't look forward to any changes, but in the past year I've been an active member on DNF I could see the guy doesn't exactly stand still.

& with the way domaining works in general, someone will sell.

I think this this is not only an acknowledgement that Adam is at the forefront of the domain investment industry, but also an acknowledgement that they previously lacked a bit of direction. If it ain't broke you don't fix it!

[domainstosell]

I can appreciate the enthusiasm, and I hope that they are looking to move in a different direction to offer those who wish to sell a good outlet for liquidity. However, in my opinion the partnership is a very shrewd, smart and calculated move on iREIT's part.

I believe that the main reason for the partnership is to "soften" thier (iREIT's) image in the mind of domainers, making them more accessable to the average domainer. Right now, they are a large, faceless corporate entity. With Adam as the "face" of iREIT, they instantly gain some measure of trust, because they have "one of us" at the forefront, helping them to bring in more domainers who were previously on the fence about contacting iREIT with their portfolio. I think it is a big (and smart) PR move for iREIT, and I don't think it will change their buying habits or criteria. Just my opinion.

[Rubber Duck]

I can appreciate the enthusiasm, and I hope that they are looking to move in a different direction to offer those who wish to sell a good outlet for liquidity. However, in my opinion the partnership is a very shrewd, smart and calculated move on iREIT's part.

I believe that the main reason for the partnership is to "soften" thier (iREIT's) image in the mind of domainers, making them more accessable to the average domainer. Right now, they are a large, faceless corporate entity. With Adam as the "face" of iREIT, they instantly gain some measure of trust, because they have "one of us" at the forefront, helping them to bring in more domainers who were previously on the fence about contacting iREIT with their portfolio. I think it is a big (and smart) PR move for iREIT, and I don't think it will change their buying habits or criteria. Just my opinion.

Adam would have to be pretty stupid to come out with a statement such as the one he did, which clearly indicates a change of direction, if he had not cleared it with the powers that be, or had not been vested the power to use his own judgement. I have a lot more respect for Adam than to assume that he would shot himself in the foot in such an inept manner.

[domainstosell]

I am not trying to belittle his involvement or slam him in any way, I am just trying to take an objective look at the situation. Here is the letter:

Dear DNForum member:

I’m writing to let you know about some important developments related to DNForum. As you may have read this morning, I have joined the iREIT management team. I will help drive iREIT’s acquisitions, marketing, analytics, content development, and domain optimization and monetization functions. In addition to my new responsibilities at iREIT, I will continue to own and run DNForum as I have in the past.

This is pretty standard stuff; a rundown of his responsabilities. While he mentions acquisitions, it is one of a number of apparent responsabilities. There is no mention of a change of direction in iREIT's buying methods.

While DNForum will remain an independent entity, we now have a formal partnership with iREIT to help us deliver increased functionality and features to our members.

The iREIT partnership is very good news for DNForum members. As a close partner of DNForum, iREIT will give members an opportunity to sell and monetize their domain investments while working with experienced professionals. iREIT is well-capitalized – iREIT has the ability to pay cash upfront, can offer a premium for quality properties and can often sign a deal within 24 hours. With iREIT’s support, DNForum will also be working on ways to streamline and improve the domain marketplace functionality of DNForum to make it easier than ever to buy and sell domains.

These are all "benefits" for DNForum members, and seems to reinforce iREIT's buying methods. There is no mention of how domains will be valued, etc.; simply that iREIT has a lot of money to spend and can make deals happen quickly. While it does say "can offer a premium for quality properties," I'd still be willing to bet that the "quality properties" are traffic domains.

In short, iREIT will bring liquidity to this market.

I joined iREIT because I believe the company has the right approach to lead and grow this market. I have enormous respect for the team and think the company’s reputation for professionalism is well-deserved. In conjunction with iREIT, I look forward to expanding the functionality and value of DNForum for the benefit of our members.

I’m sure that many of you will have questions and opinions about this news – please feel free to send me a PM or to start a discussion thread on DNForum.

Regards,

Adam Dicker

Again, the usual "feel-good" message: benefit to users, great partnership, etc. No mention of how the buying process will be handled.

I don't think it is a stupid statement by any means, and I commend and congratulate Adam for the wonderful opportunity he has with this. I just disagree that there has been anything so far to indicate a change in direction. The statement he sent out is exactly what I would expect to see in a move such as this by a comapny like iREIT. Again, just my opinion/experience.

[Rubber Duck]

You have obviously missed the comment in one of the threads there that has been reported here and probably at Namepros as well. His statement is unequivocal.

Begging the forbodence of others, I will post it again:

http://www.dnforum.com/thread173591.html

I am not trying to belittle his involvement or slam him in any way, I am just trying to take an objective look at the situation. Here is the letter:



This is pretty standard stuff; a rundown of his responsabilities. While he mentions acquisitions, it is one of a number of apparent responsabilities. There is no mention of a change of direction in iREIT's buying methods.



These are all "benefits" for DNForum members, and seems to reinforce iREIT's buying methods. There is no mention of how domains will be valued, etc.; simply that iREIT has a lot of money to spend and can make deals happen quickly. While it does say "can offer a premium for quality properties," I'd still be willing to bet that the "quality properties" are traffic domains.



Again, the usual "feel-good" message: benefit to users, great partnership, etc. No mention of how the buying process will be handled.

I don't think it is a stupid statement by any means, and I commend and congratulate Adam for the wonderful opportunity he has with this. I just disagree that there has been anything so far to indicate a change in direction. The statement he sent out is exactly what I would expect to see in a move such as this by a comapny like iREIT. Again, just my opinion/experience.

[Olney]

Well what applies to all of us is that IDNs are not traffic domains (not yet).
We don't know how they will establish value of IDNs.
This is a change because as far as I know I'm not sure if any of us has sold IDNs to iREIT or if they had interest.
We do know he made a statement saying he's looking into the IDN market also for iREIT.
That's change enough don't you think?
I don't want to pump anyone's head also but no matter what IDNs will be sent in that section when opened. I just want members to present themselves well.
What will be purchased? When will they be purchased? What criteria? We don't know..
People will have to wait...

[Rubber Duck]

I am not sure that is actually valid. The change in the Google Algorythm probably does make IDN traffic domains. It is just a question of getting organised to exploit it properly. Actually, I am going to be spending a couple of days applying some of my new found SEO knowledge to my lack lustre ASCII portfolio, as I am convinced that indexing and URL forwarding them will make a difference. I may even get into the development game via them. It is going to be a lot easier for me to cut my teeth in English. That doesn't mean that we have given up on IDN. We are outsourcing site designs at the present. I think we should have some pretty kick-arse site up for Japan after the weekend.



Well what applies to all of us is that IDNs are not traffic domains (not yet).
We don't know how they will establish value of IDNs.
This is a change because as far as I know I'm not sure if any of us has sold IDNs to iREIT or if they had interest.
We do know he made a statement saying he's looking into the IDN market also for iREIT.
That's change enough don't you think?
I don't want to pump anyone's head also but no matter what IDNs will be sent in that section when opened. I just want members to present themselves well.
What will be purchased? When will they be purchased? What criteria? We don't know..
People will have to wait...

[Olney]

With us having to tweak our domains in parking we don't have correct stats. This is true for all of us. If parking sites didn't have indexing issues domains that have been parked for 5 to 6 months should establish Traffic domains. I'm pointing out we can't use NameDrive stats as being accurate.

Usually some companies want a few months of stats or to test the traffic. After being correctly indexed, & sitting for a while it's a whole different story. I'm talking about right now. Some markets though are getting good traffic, but overall there is still issues.


I am not sure that is actually valid. The change in the Google Algorythm probably does make IDN traffic domains. It is just a question of getting organised to exploit it properly. Actually, I am going to be spending a couple of days applying some of my new found SEO knowledge to my lack lustre ASCII portfolio, as I am convinced that indexing and URL forwarding them will make a difference. I may even get into the development game via them. It is going to be a lot easier for me to cut my teeth in English. That doesn't mean that we have given up on IDN. We are outsourcing site designs at the present. I think we should have some pretty kick-arse site up for Japan after the weekend.

[Rubber Duck]

With us having to tweak our domains in parking we don't have correct stats. This is true for all of us. If parking sites didn't have indexing issues domains that have been parked for 5 to 6 months should establish Traffic domains. I'm pointing out we can't use NameDrive stats as being accurate.

Usually some companies want a few months of stats or to test the traffic. After being correctly indexed, & sitting for a while it's a whole different story. I'm talking about right now. Some markets though are getting good traffic, but overall there is still issues.

Well I won't be approaching anyone. If they want to buy they will have to know what they want and how to value it the same as anyone else. Thats most likely why Adam is on board.

[domainstosell]

You have obviously missed the comment in one of the threads there that has been reported here and probably at Namepros as well. His statement is unequivocal.

Begging the forbodence of others, I will post it again:

http://www.dnforum.com/thread173591.html

You're right, I did miss that. While I still believe this move has a huge PR impact for iREIT, I will admit that I don't know how that statement plays into things, especially because I agree with you in that he would probably not make such a statement without the blessing of iREIT.

Very interesting...

[Edwin]

The kinds of prices that will be paid for IDNs are not going to be influenced by anything you write when sending in your names (though the more/less professional you sound may influence the way iREIT thinks about dealing with YOU).

iREIT are one of the most experienced companies in the business. There are really only two scenarios that are possible as far as IDNs go, in the near term:-

#A They are STILL only interested in names with traffic/revenue, regardless of the "issues" we all know surround IDNs.

In this case, there will be a few folks with names that, for whatever reason (typo or phonetic equivalent of existing site, etc.) have "real" amounts of traffic and revenue, who might expect to sell them for 8x to 10x annual revenue, or whatever it is iREIT is paying these days.

#B They have decided that IDNs have more potential than their traffic alone would indicate. They are therefore willing to work (to some degree) on "potential", that old finger-in-the-wind word that we have all been debating so vigorously in here.

In this case, I would be virtually certain that they are going to engage NATIVE SPEAKERS as experts for each language they are going to work with, and they will be working to very rigid criteria developed in-house. They are not going to spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars (potentially) on IDNs based on a couple of astonishingly blunt tools (Overture and Google results) with no traffic/revenue data to back up that decision-making process.

Yes, this is of course speculation. But try and look at the big picture from the point of view of a company with almost infinite resources, by the standards of an average domainer anyway. If they are serious about IDNs, they see where it's all going, and they want to get in early, you should expect they will behave "seriously" and that will include getting the expertise on board to make rational decisions.

If it's #A they're working from, nothing you say will help raise the price of your names, since the ONLY thing they care about is MATH i.e. visitors and dollars. If it's #B, again nothing you say will influence them, since they will not be relying on the blunt, imperfect tools you are to produce your own "analysis" of your domains.

[Rubber Duck]

Yes, and if they are serious, you may depend they are monitoring this forum. I somehow doubt that they will sign on as DCG.

[bwhhisc]

There was talk a few months ago about the arrival of "Scripters". Anyone have a current take on whether that still may happen and who the players are?

http://www.idnforums.com/forums/1759-whats-a-good-number-of-registrations.html?highlight=scripters

[Rubber Duck]

There was talk a few months ago about the arrival of "Scripters". Anyone have a current take on whether that still may happen and who the players are?

http://www.idnforums.com/forums/1759-whats-a-good-number-of-registrations.html?highlight=scripters

Some of the members on here were using primitive scripts three months ago.

[Edwin]

Some of the members on here were using primitive scripts three months ago.

Yep, that boat's long gone.

Fundamentally, there are no massive undiscovered caches of generic IDNs left to be found from word lists and the like, though of course there are still going to be scattered gems here and there that didn't make any of the major lists, and compound phrases (service + placename, adjective+noun etc.) are still abundant.

[bwhhisc]

Some of the members on here were using primitive scripts three months ago.

I agree with that, but think that the 'Scripters' Edwin referred to on the earlier thread might be some pretty serious players and pick up a huge chunk of idns in a short period of time. That thread stuck in my mind over the months....perhaps there were many like DCG who picked up 5000 plus names quietly over the last few months time.

[Edwin]

I agree with that, but think that the 'Scripters' Edwin referred to on the thread would be some pretty serious players and pick up a huge chunk of idns in a short period of time. That thread stuck in my mind over the months.

Yes, that's the folks I was referring to. However, you can have the best scripts in the world and still get nothing but scraps if you arrive too late to the party. The pickings were slim long before any of them showed up (if they even did - I don't monitor marginal terms).

As the recent "What have you registered recently?"-type threads have shown, there's virtually nothing of real (i.e. worth getting excited about) value still being registered, though there are some (more and more hotly contested) goodies to be had on certain drop dates.

[Rubber Duck]

I agree with that, but think that the 'Scripters' Edwin referred to on the earlier thread might be some pretty serious players and pick up a huge chunk of idns in a short period of time. That thread stuck in my mind over the months.

Well, if anyone is capable of putting together a massive scripting operation, provide he can find the resources, I am sure Adam can. He didn't say, he was going to buy ours!

[bwhhisc]

Well, if anyone is capable of putting together a massive scripting operation, provide he can find the resources, I am sure Adam can. He didn't say, he was going to buy ours!

I am sure he is still actively looking, we come across him in the who.is daily. No doubt he has had some major resources to move so quick in March. My surprise is that more DNFers did not pick up on his recommendation to grab some IDNs earlier in the year.

[Rubber Duck]

I am sure he is still actively looking, we come across him in the who.is daily. No doubt he has had some major resources to move so quick in March. My surprise is that more DNFers did not pick up on his recommendation to grab some IDNs earlier in the year.

Well if you are deaf dumb and stupid, it is not so difficult. I noted how they just walked over the post relating to Arabic IDN ranking as though they were not there. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence could see that what was being discussed was of massive significance to the future of domaining. These guys, however, are just tied up in their little ASCII dreams, which would be fine if most of them had portfolios you could shake a stick at.

[bwhhisc]

Well if you are deaf dumb and stupid, it is not so difficult. I noted how they just walked over the post relating to Arabic IDN ranking as though they were not there. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence could see that what was being discussed was of massive significance to the future of domaining. These guys, however, are just tied up in their little ASCII dreams, which would be fine if most of them had portfolios you could shake a stick at.

That's why I posted behind you to perk up some interest...maybe some still don't know what an IDN looks like!
Maybe a screenshot is in order, or some electroshock therapy. lol

[Rubber Duck]

That's why I posted behind you to perk up some interest...maybe some still don't know what an IDN looks like!
Maybe a screenshot is in order, or some electroshock therapy. lol

I think most of them think an IDN is something like:

ChineseNoodles.com

You only have to see the crap that gets posted on here and has to be shifted to the General Domains section. Some will learn. But as they say in Yorkshire "Thee can't heduucate Pork"!

[Drewbert]

Some of the members on here were using primitive scripts three months ago.

Are you casting aspersions about my programming abilities?

[Olney]

The fact is some are making money with English domains. A lot of domainers have gotten to the point that they understand & respect IDNs but aren't interested.
We can't force them to get into the market.
Many members here still have large ASCII portfolios.

[Explorer]

Once the PPC for our IDNs start working and significant cash flows start coming in, we'll be less and less interested in selling our IDNs. Why sell? We know more about them (history, rules, SEO, indexing, etc) than anybody else, so IDNs must be valuable to us more than they are to anyone else.

[touchring]

Are you casting aspersions about my programming abilities?


Hehe, however primitive, still more advanced than the "better mousetrap". :p

[Rubber Duck]

Once the PPC for our IDNs start working and significant cash flows start coming in, we'll be less and less interested in selling our IDNs. Why sell? We know more about them (history, rules, SEO, indexing, etc) than anybody else, so IDNs must be valuable to us more than they are to anyone else.

Precisely, if buyers want to acquire, then they really should be making a move now. Later, will definitely be very expensive. If iREID are not going to make offers on a basis that is going to convince potential sellers that have some interest in selling, then they won't be getting any names.

Are you casting aspersions about my programming abilities?

Bill was talking Mining Scripts and so was I. I was aware that you were using your own drop script, but I had no knowledge of you using any Mining Scripts.

So I guess we can forget Japanese then?

[touchring]

The fact is some are making money with English domains. A lot of domainers have gotten to the point that they understand & respect IDNs but aren't interested.
We can't force them to get into the market.
Many members here still have large ASCII portfolios.


I think Edwin pointed out that they are making so much money with ASCII, millions in PPC a year as some claimed on DS and DNF, they find it difficult to find even some time to look at IDNs. One should also note that development alone can take a lot of time as well.

So IDN is mostly a newbie thing, at least until now.

[thegenius1]

I think Edwin pointed out that they are making so much money with ASCII, millions in PPC a year as some claimed on DS and DNF, they find it difficult to find even some time to look at IDNs. One should also note that development alone can take a lot of time as well.

So IDN is mostly a newbie thing, at least until now.

And Adam specifically said this will not be the case , " Expect the IDN Market to take off now "

[Rubber Duck]

I think Edwin pointed out that they are making so much money with ASCII, millions in PPC a year as some claimed on DS and DNF, they find it difficult to find even some time to look at IDNs. One should also note that development alone can take a lot of time as well.

So IDN is mostly a newbie thing, at least until now.

Well my impression is that vast majority have very sick portfolios and are virtually skint!

Yes, there are some very big fish out there, but they are few in number.

[touchring]

Well my impression is that vast majority have very sick portfolios and are virtually skint!

Yes, there are some very big fish out there, but they are few in number.


Yes, even for iREIT, it's well known they purchase a lot of, maybe tens of thousands of 2-3 years PPC names, and you can guess what sort of names command only 2-3 years PPC.

From this behavor, we know one thing - they place little emphasis on name quality - they are very interested in PPC. At the end of the day, their billionaire investors will ask them, "how many millions have you guys made?"

[Edwin]

It's worth thinking more about ASCII and the big big players (MarchEx, iREIT etc.) since these are the kinds of companies which will be swooping on large portfolio buys.

They no doubt have their own direct, private deals with Google, Yahoo! and every other ad source worth mentioning, probably at a higher rev share than even a player like Sedo can scrape together (because everyone wants the guys with 500,000 domains to play nice with them!)

Combine that with their own parking platform and optimization tools, and they probably know that on average they can double the revenue of any parked domain INSTANTLY by moving it in-house, compared to revenue at ND, DS, Sedo, Fabulous or the like.

As such, a 3-year deal becomes in effect an 18 month deal. In other words, they can spend $3,000 on a 3-year-multiple domain and have it throw off $2,000 a year. From an INVESTMENT perspective, that's a fabulous ROI and safe as houses, since even if the domain name industry and the PPC players change dramatically, they're not going to do so within the 18-month earnout period after which the domain name is "free" (but still pouring out cash).

Compare and contrast that to the IDN market, where they COULD see their investment multiply itself 10x, 100x or more if things go well, but where there's no platinum-plated safety net if things go wrong. Spend $5,000 on an IDN and it might - probability is low, but NOT zero - take 100 years or more to pay for itself.

Now consider that most of these companies are essentially venture funds backed by wealthy individuals, other funds and investment banks, and think which they'd prefer...

Behind door #1: solid, unexciting, methodical investments that pretty much guarantee pay offs in the 25% to 75% a year ROI range.

Behind door #2: edge-of-the seat, speculative investments that could pay off at almost any multiple, including ZERO.

Hmmm. Suddenly everything becomes a whole lot clearer!

You may deride ASCII, but done properly and on a large enough scale, investment in ASCII domains can (and no doubt is, the evidence is all around us) easily outpace real estate, stocks and shares, commodities etc. in both ROI and risk/reward terms.

[Rubber Duck]

Yes, but that is only valid if you buy into the Old Paradigm that IDN cannot be monetised. We are now entering a period of Paradigm Shift.

It's worth thinking more about ASCII and the big big players (MarchEx, iREIT etc.) since these are the kinds of companies which will be swooping on large portfolio buys.

They no doubt have their own direct, private deals with Google, Yahoo! and every other ad source worth mentioning, probably at a higher rev share than even a player like Sedo can scrape together (because everyone wants the guys with 500,000 domains to play nice with them!)

Combine that with their own parking platform and optimization tools, and they probably know that on average they can double the revenue of any parked domain INSTANTLY by moving it in-house, compared to revenue at ND, DS, Sedo, Fabulous or the like.

As such, a 3-year deal becomes in effect an 18 month deal. In other words, they can spend $3,000 on a 3-year-multiple domain and have it throw off $2,000 a year. From an INVESTMENT perspective, that's a fabulous ROI and safe as houses, since even if the domain name industry and the PPC players change dramatically, they're not going to do so within the 18-month earnout period after which the domain name is "free" (but still pouring out cash).

Compare and contrast that to the IDN market, where they COULD see their investment multiply itself 10x, 100x or more if things go well, but where there's no platinum-plated safety net if things go wrong. Spend $5,000 on an IDN and it might - probability is low, but NOT zero - take 100 years or more to pay for itself.

Now consider that most of these companies are essentially venture funds backed by wealthy individuals, other funds and investment banks, and think which they'd prefer...

Behind door #1: solid, unexciting, methodical investments that pretty much guarantee pay offs in the 25% to 75% a year ROI range.

Behind door #2: edge-of-the seat, speculative investments that could pay off at almost any multiple, including ZERO.

Hmmm. Suddenly everything becomes a whole lot clearer!

You may deride ASCII, but done properly and on a large enough scale, investment in ASCII domains can (and no doubt is, the evidence is all around us) easily outpace real estate, stocks and shares, commodities etc. in both ROI and risk/reward terms.

[Edwin]

Yes, but that is only valid if you buy into the Old Paradigm that IDN cannot be monetised. We are now entering a period of Paradigm Shift.

Nothing to do with that. Again, you have to take a BIG BUSINESS view since the largest players are BIG BUSINESS.

It's to do with the difference between investment and speculation.

ASCII domains - from a big business, ten thousand feet perspective, can be classed as an investment if the purchasing funds, metric analysis tools and expertise are there.

IDNs, until they actually get the traffic and revenue we fully expect, are speculative.

Investment funds and investment fund managers generally make investments. Only very limited, very specific types of funds engage in activities that could be classed out and out as speculation.

Absolutely NOTHING that I have written in the last few posts is meant to suggest that I personally feel that IDNs are a "bad deal" or that somehow things are going to turn out badly. I'm just analysing the current and prospective near future state of the large-lot-portfolio market.

[Rubber Duck]

Nothing to do with that. Again, you have to take a BIG BUSINESS view since the largest players are BIG BUSINESS.


Actually, it has everything to do with that. It means that Desperate Sellers will become Reluctant Sellers. We are are not all hanging around of backs of doors waiting for IE 7. This frustrating wait has actually been very productive. It has made some of us think very deeply about what we are actually trying to acheive, and as a consequence, I believe we will not only acheive it sooner than anticipated, but in much greater volume.

[alpha]

I agree with Edwin.

There are no doubt some corporates that will go for the high-risk high-reward business model; but ireit and co doesn't sound like that fits their profile.

horses for courses and all that.

[Rubber Duck]

I agree with Edwin.

There are no doubt some corporates that will go for the high-risk high-reward business model; but ireit and co doesn't sound like that fits their profile.

horses for courses and all that.

Well if you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Frankly, shortly nobody will give a damn whether they are interested or not. It will be an Inhouse Dilemna.

But thinking back, didn't we come to the conclusion that one of iREIDs recent acquisitions may have included a very substantial IDN portfolio. Forgive me but didn't that buy a company with a name something like Nestar? Maybe DCG was already behind the wheel?

[markits]

Netster? I missed this news, but I know netster owns one of the biggest Chinese domain portfolio.

[alpha]

Netster? I missed this news, but I know netster owns one of the biggest Chinese domain portfolio.

http://www.idnforums.com/forums/2989-ireit-is-getting-into-the-idn-game.html?highlight=ireit

[Rubber Duck]

http://www.idnforums.com/forums/2989-ireit-is-getting-into-the-idn-game.html?highlight=ireit

Thanks Alpha. Some of us having been waiting so long we have grown a little infirm.

[alpha]

what still isn't clear is whether the IDN part of the portfolio came as part of the deal specifically or just because it was swept up by the acquisition hoover.

also we don't know whether this portfolio has since been expanded or even disposed off.

in fact it seems like we know very little. :p

[Rubber Duck]

Yes, it is called commercial confidentiality. It is used to maintain an advantage in the market place. Those that excercise such tactics are generally up to no good.:rolleyes:



what still isn't clear is whether the IDN part of the portfolio came as part of the deal specifically or just because it was swept up by the acquisition hoover.

also we don't know whether this portfolio has since been expanded or even disposed off.

in fact it seems like we know very little. :p

[alpha]

but I agree that if you take even the small pieces of the puzzle we do know about:

1) Ireit now own IDN's
2) DCG knows that an IDN is more than Chinesenoodles.com (borowed from RD. great example :) )
3) DCG has IDN's
4) DCG is part of Ireit

it all looks like a rosy future. we just need a minor explosion in traffic and we are away

[555]

Tell Bob i'm not sellin :p

I cant find a reason other then desperate need of money for someone to sell even a decent name at this point for even 10 yrs of current rev. which comes to about...$1200.00 (being generous with the figure)
- IMO all that rev based buying was even born due to desperate sellers..because a decent and above domain name has many other advantages being disregarded by this ppc x months = nothing

[alpha]

Tell Bob i'm not sellin :p

I cant find a reason other then desperate need of money for someone to sell even a decent name at this point for even 10 yrs of current rev. which comes to about...$1200.00 (being generous with the figure)
- IMO all that rev based buying was even born due to desperate sellers..because a decent and above domain name has many other advantages being disregarded by this ppc x months = nothing

ok, here's a theory.

PPC calc and revenue buying calcs was born out of all the good names going in Ascii.
so when left with a load of crap (definition of crap = not even a dictionary word) - the only way to seperate one crappy name from another is by how much revenue does it generate.

these days, you just don't see ultra strong single word ascii generics being sold, hence why PPC and revenue calcs are the only way to decide.

now add to this theory.. a new load of strong dictionary words come along in the form of IDN. Some of these will not necessarily be type-in naturals.

.. to me, this sounds like IDN will turn the revenue buying model on it's head.

[Rubber Duck]

Precisely, my revenues are well up on last month even those many of my Japanese have been pointed nowhere most of this month.

Results without development in Russian and Arabic indicate what is possible in Japan with development. We are now looking at bringing that to reality, with or without the introduction of IE 7, which is important, but perhaps mainly as a Red-Herring.

[555]

ok, here's a theory.

PPC calc and revenue buying calcs was born out of all the good names going in Ascii.
so when left with a load of crap (definition of crap = not even a dictionary word) - the only way to seperate one crappy name from another is by how much revenue does it generate.

these days, you just don't see ultra strong single word ascii generics being sold, hence why PPC and revenue calcs are the only way to decide.

now add to this theory.. a new load of strong dictionary words come along in the form of IDN. Some of these will not necessarily be type-in naturals.

.. to me, this sounds like IDN will turn the revenue buying model on it's head.

And they came in multiple languages, which brings me to think the idn buying at least at such early stage and in future also possibly...buying model should/will be more like:
Name (not noodleWcrabs names) but a real generic domain name "TRANSLATED" to it's ascii equivilant worth , then taking in consideration market size and maturity = price

(on another note i think its not realistic to see idn sales equal or higher then the ascii equivilant in next 2-3 years at least...on rear occasions we might...anyone thinks it can/would happan?)

[Rubber Duck]

Oh, No! We are back to the RD versus Touchring conflicting theories of valuation. I am going to stay out of this!



And they came in multiple languages, which brings me to think the idn buying at least at such early stage and in future also possibly...buying model should/will be more like:
Name (not noodleWcrabs names) but a real generic domain name "TRANSLATED" to it's ascii equivilant worth , then taking in consideration market size and maturity = price

(on another note i think its not realistic to see idn sales equal or higher then the ascii equivilant in next 2-3 years at least...on rear occasions we might...anyone thinks it can/would happan?)

[alpha]

And they came in multiple languages, which brings me to think the idn buying at least at such early stage and in future also possibly...buying model should/will be more like:
Name (not noodleWcrabs names) but a real generic domain name "TRANSLATED" to it's ascii equivilant worth , then taking in consideration market size and maturity = price

(on another note i think its not realistic to see idn sales equal or higher then the ascii equivilant in next 2-3 years at least...on rear occasions we might...anyone thinks it can/would happan?)

that is feasible in some cases.

but what about when there are multiple ways to write the term, as we see a lot of. "god" in Arabic being the case in point.

you can't just compare to English Ascii "god"

[555]

RD You can't, we're talking noodles here :)
(Link anyone?)

[555]

that is feasible in some cases.

but what about when there are multiple ways to write the term, as we see a lot of. "god" in Arabic being the case in point.

you can't just compare to English Ascii "god"

Alpha, no doubt you're right for the words with multiple ways to write...and/or double/triple meaning names but agree in most cases if not all there's only one god :)

(well at least only 1 "version" no one will doubt its the primary term and if it isnt, that is one of the factors to consider.)

[touchring]

Tell Bob i'm not sellin :p

I cant find a reason other then desperate need of money for someone to sell even a decent name at this point for even 10 yrs of current rev. which comes to about...$1200.00 (being generous with the figure)
- IMO all that rev based buying was even born due to desperate sellers..because a decent and above domain name has many other advantages being disregarded by this ppc x months = nothing



With only 4 months left to IE7, people are selling only because they do not believe in it.

We believe in IDNs, so we're sitting tight and waiting. :)

[Rubber Duck]

RD You can't, we're talking noodles here :)
(Link anyone?)

There will be odd posts all over the forum. The bottomline is that Touchring has been trying to build valuation models on traffic from the bottom up and I favour comparison models working from the top down. My argument is, although imperfect the latter is plausible, wheras the other is invalid because the range and scale of unknowns is far too great.

With only 4 months left to IE7, people are selling only because they do not believe in it.

I believe in IDNs, so i'm sitting tied and waiting.

That is invalid. There are other aspects to running a business other than blind faith.

The difference in the bottom up and top down approach to valuation is the reason there is an impass in the markets at the moment. Buyers generally favour bottom up. Sellers are looking at top down. These models are currently giving greatly conflicting answers.

Buyers will be validated in as much as their models will more closely resemble those that are used longer-term. However, sellers will be justified, as those models validate their asking prices. Sellers will benefit from waiting, buyers will not.

[touchring]

There will be odd posts all over the forum. The bottomline is that Touchring has been trying to build valuation models on traffic from the bottom up and I favour comparison models working from the top down. My argument is, although imperfect the latter is plausible, wheras the other is invalid because the range and scale of unknowns is far too great.



That is invalid. There are other aspects to running a business other than blind faith.

The difference in the bottom up and top down approach to valuation is the reason there is an impass in the markets at the moment. Buyers generally favour bottom up. Sellers are looking at top down. These models are currently giving greatly conflicting answers.

Buyers will be validated in as much as their models will more closely resemble those that are used longer-term. However, sellers will be justified, as those models validate their asking prices. Sellers will benefit from waiting, buyers will not.


Yes, at this very moment, it's all a guessing game, especially so for non-latins like Chinese and Japanese. Even for the PPC model, we have to guess the multiplier, be it 10 years or 10,000 years. Ultimately, PPC is what the big boys are really interested it.

[Rubber Duck]

With only 4 months left to IE7............... :)

Yes, I am afraid whilst I am no longer really counting the days on this one, that is another estimating problem where your assumptions are going to prove wildly inaccurate.

[touchring]

Yes, I am afraid whilst I am no longer really counting the days on this one, that is another estimating problem where your assumptions are going to prove wildly inaccurate.


Hehe, didn't M$ say by end of this year? It's now August, so about 4 months to Christmas.

I think i'll put up a poll for this. :)

[bwhhisc]

With only 4 months left to IE7, people are selling only because they do not believe in it. We believe in IDNs, so we're sitting tight and waiting. :)

I don't think it is going to be 4 months, the engineers and program managers at Microsoft are undoubtably as anxious we are.

As Microsoft blogs have indicated that the IE7 Automatic Update is "ready" for deployment, perhaps the wait is the traning and preparations of "shifting" tech support personnel to IE7.

[touchring]

I don't think it is going to be 4 months, the engineers and program managers at Microsoft are undoubtably as anxious we are.

As Microsoft blogs have indicated that the IE7 Automatic Update is "ready" for deployment, perhaps the wait is the traning and preparations of "shifting" tech support personnel to IE7.


So, the last version we got is the final version?

There will be odd posts all over the forum. The bottomline is that Touchring has been trying to build valuation models on traffic from the bottom up and I favour comparison models working from the top down. My argument is, although imperfect the latter is plausible, wheras the other is invalid because the range and scale of unknowns is far too great.



That is invalid. There are other aspects to running a business other than blind faith.

The difference in the bottom up and top down approach to valuation is the reason there is an impass in the markets at the moment. Buyers generally favour bottom up. Sellers are looking at top down. These models are currently giving greatly conflicting answers.

Buyers will be validated in as much as their models will more closely resemble those that are used longer-term. However, sellers will be justified, as those models validate their asking prices. Sellers will benefit from waiting, buyers will not.


Yup, that's why there is a stalemate. After IE7, we'll all be arguing over how many percent of people have installed IE7.

[555]

October 28.
As a present to billy's birthday?

[Rubber Duck]

So, the last version we got is the final version?




Yup, that's why there is a stalemate. After IE7, we'll all be arguing over how many percent of people have installed IE7.

No, but the RC (Releas Candidate) is lock down and should be available within weeks if not days.