IE 7 Cripples IDN..

[alpha]

.. so says Mozilla *sigh*

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/gerv/archives/2006/08/ie_7_cripples_idn.html

[touchring]

Why would this be an issue in the first place? Security is more important than having to stare at punycode.

This is a non-issue.

We should be concerned about whether Verisign plugin or CNNIC plugin works after upgrading to IE7.

[alpha]

If you peel away the obvious Mozilla propaganda, it really boils down to this:

If you navigate to an IDN site and don't have that language installed you get Punycode in the address bar and a yellow warning "error".

the point being made is, this is fine to surf in your own language, but what about an international company who has links to other country specific sites, users that navigate there will be "nagged".

Mozilla propoganda or real concern?

[touchring]

If you peel away the obvious Mozilla propaganda, it really boils down to this:

If you navigate to an IDN site and don't have that language installed you get Punycode in the address bar and a yellow warning "error".

the point being made is, this is fine to surf in your own language, but what about an international company who has links to other country specific sites, users that navigate there will be "nagged".

Mozilla propoganda or real concern?


Well, an international company won't use idn as it's corporate URL.

[Rubber Duck]

.. so says Mozilla *sigh*

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/gerv/archives/2006/08/ie_7_cripples_idn.html

Mozilla have got a nerve. They were the ones that reset the default on Firefox to Punycode because they lost their bottle.

Frankly, the whole argument about phishing is peverse. Microsoft have done the whole of Asia a huge disservice by forcing them to use unfamiliar foreign characters, thereby subjecting them to a real risk of phishing. They have done this by keeping IE 6 on a ventillator for 3 years after it was clinically brain dead, thereby making Asians vulnerable to phishing, to protect a more Internet savvy US, from almost totally phoney risk, which ICANN have been addressing. If it was such a massive problem, why have not all the mixed script domains that present a theoretical risk not simply been cancelled?

[alpha]

Well, an international company won't use idn as it's corporate URL.

eh?

so you think an International corporate won't have a site map off to their "local" companies and use the idn as the home page?

[Rubber Duck]

eh?

so you think an International corporate won't have a site map off to their "local" companies and use the idn as the home page?

I think someone has kidnapped the real Touchring and stolen his identity to put out anti-IDN propaganda!

[touchring]

eh?

so you think an International corporate won't have a site map off to their "local" companies and use the idn as the home page?


Let's say one of those international Japanese car makers like Toyota - they are going to use toyota.com as their corporate URL, and not the Japanese version.

Taking a Chinese example, Lenovo Computer (联想) is going to use Lenovo.com. Take a look at www.lenovo.com -> it leads to a page where you can choose dozens of countries. Germany is http://www.lenovo.com/de/de/

[seamo]

If they've got any brains (which I'm sure they have) they'll find a way of using/marketing both...

[alpha]

Let's say one of those international Japanese car makers like Toyota - they are going to use toyota.com as their corporate URL, and not the Japanese version.

Taking a Chinese example, Lenovo Computer is going to use Lenovo.com.

yes Toyoto.com as Global page.

with links off to idn.com (china)

toyoto.co.uk (uk)

idn.com (germany)
.
.
.


I aree with RD, touch: i think your belief is wobbling

[Rubber Duck]

Let's say one of those Japanese car makers like Toyota = they are going to use toyota.com as their corporate URL, and not the Japanese version.

Toyota already use a rangle of ccTLD such as Toyota.co.uk and Toyota.fr to target local markets in the most effective way possible, and this policy will continue. Yes Toyota.com will still be used for the US, but in Asia where Toyota is more commonly represented in local characters that is what will be used. The same logic will apply to every company of course many will use all the alternatives. If you go to the toyota.co.jp, it is clear that the Romanji version is highly accepted, so usage may continue. Seaching deeper though you will see that they also use this form:

トヨタ

[touchring]

If they've got any brains (which I'm sure they have) they'll find a way of using/marketing both...


I'm sure they will forward their idn to the correct site, but why would someone in say Australia visit Toyota Germany site?

yes Toyoto.com as Global page.

with links off to idn.com (china)

toyoto.co.uk (uk)

idn.com (germany)
.
.
.


I aree with RD, touch: i think your belief is wobbling


Not wobbling, you have to put yourself in the shoes of these international companies.

They are going to want a single identity - one color, one name, one culture, one URL that the whole world can access.

Is an international company like toyota that operates in more than 50 countries, going to market and advertise 50 domains in 50 different languages? Maybe Yes, maybe No, that will be their company's policy.

[Rubber Duck]

I'm sure they will forward their idn to the correct site, but why would someone in say Australia visit Toyota Germany site?




Not wobbling, you have to put yourself in the shoes of these international companies.

They are going to want a single identity - one color, one name, one culture, one URL that the whole world can access.

Yes, that is certainly the US approach, which is why their current account is f*cked!

[alpha]

... you have to put yourself in the shoes of these international companies.

They are going to want a single identity - one color, one name, one culture, etc.

I 100% disagree.

I've done a lot of commercial work in this area, that is NOT what international corporates aspire to.

example:

take a big corporate US company that also has stores in the UK.

If I read their news page, and it just waffles on about the $ and USA stories or white papers/studies - I get turned off.

Internationals know this, thats why most these days put "local" content on their sites; and the way to do this is to be able to branch off from the global site and into the "regional" site and read stuff that is related to you.

[seamo]

I'm sure they will forward their idn to the correct site, but why would someone in say Australia visit Toyota Germany site?
No you're right - and I'm not saying I would.

I'm just saying that hopefully the IT guys at Toyota have the nouse to make the most of IDN...and I'm sure they do.

[Rubber Duck]

No you're right - and I'm not saying I would.

I'm just saying that hopefully the IT guys at Toyota have the nouse to make the most of IDN...and I'm sure they do.

Well, actually they might if their first language was German and they wanted to find out details relating to specs on the latest models, there are also lots of Arabs and Chinese in Australia.

[Ben]

Ikea already has lots of IDNs, イケア.com, 宜家.com, ايكيا.com, etc.

[seamo]

Well, actually they might if their first language was German and they wanted to find out details relating to specs on the latest models, there are also lots of Arabs and Chinese in Australia.
Quite true!

Ahh...the beauty of IDN's, eh? ;)

[touchring]

Well, actually they might if their first language was German and they wanted to find out details relating to specs on the latest models, there are also lots of Arabs and Chinese in Australia.


Then, they will get the warning sign the Mozilla guy said.

But i won't be worried, it will be in the small minority, like Arabic or Chinese tourists or students in Australia.

[alpha]

I 100% disagree.

I've done a lot of commercial work in this area, that is NOT what international corporates aspire to.

example:

take a big corporate US company that also has stores in the UK.

If I read their news page, and it just waffles on about the $ and USA stories or white papers/studies - I get turned off.

Internationals know this, thats why most these days put "local" content on their sites; and the way to do this is to be able to branch off from the global site and into the "regional" site and read stuff that is related to you.

check out http://www.gucci.com/

they could just have put up one global site and have a language toggle.

[rhys]

Not wobbling, you have to put yourself in the shoes of these international companies.

They are going to want a single identity - one color, one name, one culture, one URL that the whole world can access.

Is an international company like toyota that operates in more than 50 countries, going to market and advertise 50 domains in 50 different languages? Maybe Yes, maybe No, that will be their company's policy.

I'm sorry but I will have to disagree with this idea Touch. Almost every large company (except maybe GM) understands that doing global business means geo-targeted marketing. Do you think that Microsoft, for example, maintains only an english website or doesn't employ ccTLD domains. I can almost guarantee that no Japanese company cares about having one global website. Americans won't freak out at companies' Japanese language URL in punycode - because companies will still use their ASCII domain for foreigners.

This may however be an issue for smaller companies, but many of them don't do international business anyway and cater purely to local markets.

[touchring]

check out http://www.gucci.com/

they could just have put up one global site and have a language toggle.


This issue is more complex than we think, also depends on the international company's marketing strategy. Definitely, there will be a global site with links to various regional sites - same as the Lenovo Computers example i gave. And that global site will be in ASCII, and also probably a .COM.

It's not just hey! I'm invested in IDNs, so i'll only say 100% good things about it without even thinking.

[Rubber Duck]

This issue is more complex than we think, also depends on the international company's marketing strategy. Definitely, there will be a global site with links to various regional sites - same as the Lenovo Computers example i gave. And that global site will be in ASCII.

It's not just hey! I'm invested in IDNs, so i'll only say 100% good things about it without even thinking.

These days one would show a bit of balance.

[alpha]

This issue is more complex than we think, also depends on the international company's marketing strategy.

yes. so it's not black or white. Some will, some won't. But that's not what you said. you said they would all want one identity - i'm saying this is not true.

It's not just hey! I'm invested in IDNs, so i'll only say 100% good things about it without even thinking.

glad to hear it.

[touchring]

Well, an international company won't use idn as it's corporate URL.




Before more arguments come in, let's take a look at my statement again.

Is Toyota going to use トヨタ.com as their Corporate URL? Corporate URL as those on their namecards - if they travel to meet associates overseas, what is going to be their Corporate URL?

My guesstimation is that they are going to use Toyota.com. Of cos i maybe wrong, so the "pop up warning issue" comes in. :)

[Rubber Duck]

Before more arguments come in, let's take a look at my statement again.

Is Toyota going to use トヨタ.com as their Corporate URL?

They are going to use Toyota.com.

What exactly is a corporate URL anyway. Just because they use Toyota.com to market to the USA, it doesn't make any of their other sites any less valid.

I am not sure that Toyota won't continue to market to Japan using Toyota.co.jp. If that is what they feel their customers in Japan will respond to, then that is what they will use. If they however, decided to go for a Generic such as 車.com, they would not bat an eyelid at at $1M, as the publicity that they would get from doing just that would be massive, and well worth every cent.

[alpha]

Toyota already have regional sites. http://www.toyota.co.jp/worldwide/toyota/index.html

this is what IDN is ideal for.

[Rubber Duck]

I think you have choosen a very specific case here. Many large multinationals do not trade using their company name at all. Brand is not regarded as company image but something that is held in a Portfolio. These companies already sell similar products in the same market under separate brands. They will be more than comfortable using different branding in different local markets. They still maintain the economies of scale of a gobal operation and the leverage they have from their global buying power. If using IDN to market is what suits their needs that is what they will do.

[alpha]

If you peel away the obvious Mozilla propaganda, it really boils down to this:

If you navigate to an IDN site and don't have that language installed you get Punycode in the address bar and a yellow warning "error".

the point being made is, this is fine to surf in your own language, but what about an international company who has links to other country specific sites, users that navigate there will be "nagged".

Mozilla propoganda or real concern?

so... back to the original question. concern or not?

[OldIDNer]

Is the lastest version of Firefox presently resolving IDNs to unicode by default or at all?

[alpha]

not at all

[OldIDNer]

Did someone say in an earlier thread that opera resolves IDN to unicode by default? Does one need to enable it or does it come out of the box showing Unicode?

[touchring]

If they however, decided to go for a Generic such as 車.com, they would not bat an eyelid at at $1M, as the publicity that they would get from doing just that would be massive, and well worth every cent.


Yes, that's what i think idns are best for - consumer oriented "marketing campaigns".

Take for example, early this year or last year Coca-cola China had a marketing campaign which promoted icoke.cn, which is of course not the easiest to remember domain (their china site using coca-cola.com.cn). If they can use 可口可乐.cn/.com, i'm sure they would use that instead.

[Olney]

Can I butt in
I've done many projects with international corporations in Japan.
There's 2 types you have to think about.
1. International foreign companies
2. International Japanese companies

The international Japanese companies do use a variety of URLs. Co.jp is now mainly used as company info for these companies. The usually use .jp for customers etc.
Almost every company I've seen has at least has one or two IDNs in jp
Toyota has almost every car model & ToyotaCorporation.jp
This is normal, when IDNs become mainstream they can decide to switch.

Most international company workers prepare a different set of business card for international travel.

So the point is global foreign companies sometimes don't let the Japan corporation have their own URL
global Japanese companies will do what's in the best interest for Japanese customers.
We just can't say who will switch because they already own the URLs... All of them.

Almost every company I've checked owns their official company name in IDN.jp

[OldIDNer]

Well, if it is possible to go straight to unicode without compromising security then this would be better in my opinion. I imagine the reason IE7 handles IDNs the way it presently does is to make the IDN functionality as secure as possible. Maybe the alert could be better presented. I do like that IE7 does give you the option to set the language once and then you always see the Unicode, enabling you to have the true IDN experience.

[blastfromthepast]

Let's say one of those international Japanese car makers like Toyota - they are going to use toyota.com as their corporate URL

It makes more sense to have TOYOTA.com in every language you market in, then there is no fooling with clicking on language flags to get the language you want to read the information in.

if they travel to meet associates overseas, what is going to be their Corporate URL?

When people travel to Japan, they get their name cards translated to Japanese. They say, if you don't do this, Japanese won't be able to read your name.

When someone gives me a card, they should have the URL in MY script, not THEIRS, if they want to do business with me.

[jose]

This is bad news, there's no other way to look at this.

Also kills dingbats and symbol domains, I guess...

How about € symbol? Is it local language to all European countries? My bet is that it will be yellow warned signed on all!!!

Also don't know how they will do with latin. For instance, between Portuguese and Spanish, many words only differ on "´" or "`". Of course they won't have the language dictionaries loaded, so it would be very usefull to know which characters belong to each language.

Anyone knows where this kind of info could be found?

[blastfromthepast]

This is bad news, there's no other way to look at this.
...
Anyone knows where this kind of info could be found?

Instead of worrying, why don't you just install IE7 and try it out.

[Rubber Duck]

Yes, that's what i think idns are best for - consumer oriented "marketing campaigns".

Take for example, early this year or last year Coca-cola China had a marketing campaign which promoted icoke.cn, which is of course not the easiest to remember domain (their china site using coca-cola.com.cn). If they can use 可口可乐.cn/.com, i'm sure they would use that instead.

Before you continue with this ludicrous argument, I think you should consider the following:

http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09012006151350yv9.jpg
URL copied to Clipboard

http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09012006151433uo7.jpg
URL copied to Clipboard

Well, if it is possible to go straight to unicode without compromising security then this would be better in my opinion. I imagine the reason IE7 handles IDNs the way it presently does is to make the IDN functionality as secure as possible. Maybe the alert could be better presented. I do like that IE7 does give you the option to set the language/script once and then you always see the Unicode, enabling you to have the true IDN experience.

Have we actually checked how this works in the Japanese Version, or are we making assumptions? It would be logical to set the IDN option off in the English Language Version.

[OldIDNer]

Have we actually checked how this works in the Japanese Version, or are we making assumptions? It would be logical to the IDN option off in the English Language Version.

Exactly. But even if you were using the english version, and were interested in a japanese url or wanted to type it in, because you either speak it or were a speculator or just curious, you would be presented with the option of enabling the language. And with those motivations behind the interest in the IDN url, I'd say there is a fair chance an attempt at enabilization would be made.

[Rubber Duck]

It makes more sense to have TOYOTA.com in every language you market in, then there is no fooling with clicking on language flags to get the language you want to read the information in.



When people travel to Japan, they get their name cards translated to Japanese. They say, if you don't do this, Japanese won't be able to read your name.

When someone gives me a card, they should have the URL in MY script, not THEIRS, if they want to do business with me.

Yes, I guess some have just got their head around the Globalisation/Localisation thing and some just haven't. Those that have will survive and prosper. We won't hear so much about those that don't.

[jose]

Instead of worrying, why don't you just install IE7 and try it out.

hey, hey, chill out and cool down man! :mad:

[Rubber Duck]

More evidence that some us are putting forward a lot of high powered theories based on zero research:

http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09012006153200bp7.jpg
URL copied to Clipboard

[OldIDNer]

Anyone know when FF plans on adding basic Unicode IDN functionality?

[touchring]

So the point is global foreign companies sometimes don't let the Japan corporation have their own URL
global Japanese companies will do what's in the best interest for Japanese customers.
We just can't say who will switch because they already own the URLs... All of them.

Almost every company I've checked owns their official company name in IDN.jp


Precisely, international companies sometimes got to work within the constraints of an international context - of cos, HQ can always dictate the change over that and most of us idners will be most delighted if they consider the "best interest" for their Japanese customers.

It is difficult to understand if one doesn't live in a non-English speaking society.

More evidence that some us are putting forward a lot of high powered theories based on zero research:

http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09012006153200bp7.jpg
URL copied to Clipboard


Interesting finding, the romaji version triumphs kana in Tokyo. But that's not the point, as this must be a very unique case anyway.

[Rubber Duck]

Precisely, international companies sometimes got to work within the constraints of an international context - of cos, HQ can always dictate the change over that most of us idners will be most delighted if they consider the "best interest" for their Japanese customers.

It is difficult to understand if one doesn't live in a non-English speaking society.




Interesting finding, the romaji version triumphs kana in Tokyo. But that's not the point, as this must be a very unique case anyway.

There are no constraints here. They can use as many websites as they wish to target as many segments as they wish big or small. If they know what they are doing they will use each and every weapon in the arsenal. However, if more people in general are typing in the Japanese version than the English, then the site that uses a relevant URL will become more significant.

[touchring]

Ok, debates and theories over, let's now start talking about stuffs that directly impact upon us like the topic suggests, like whether Verisign and CNNIC's plugin still works after IE7.

Anyone??

[Rubber Duck]

Ok, issue over, let's start talking about stuffs that directly impact upon us, like whether Verisign and CNNIC's plugin still works after IE7. Anyone??

I don't see how this can possibly mean anything. If you have the Verisign Pluggin and it prevents installation, you will probably be aware of the issues and uninstall it. If you don't have the pluggin and you have IE 7, you will never need to worry about it. We have proved conclusively that Japan and our other important market have minimal instances of installation of the Verisign Pluggin. Why should this ever become a significant issue?

[Explorer]

Ok, debates and theories over, let's now start talking about stuffs that directly impact upon us like the topic suggests, like whether Verisign and CNNIC's plugin still works after IE7.

Anyone??

It might create some confusion/inconvinience in the short term, but let's face it, those plug-ins were invented to make sure users can access IDNs. So, after a while this will be sorted out.

[Giant]

Yes, I guess some have just got their head around the Globalisation/Localisation thing and some just haven't. Those that have will survive and prosper. We won't hear so much about those that don't.

FireFox need time to think. If FF can't manage to show IDN's unicode on the URL bar, FF will die.

IDN IS NOW MAINSTREAM!

[Rubber Duck]

FireFox need time to think. If FF can't manage to show IDN's unicode on the URL bar, FF will die.

IDN IS NOW MAINSTREAM!

FF is no longer installed on my machine. My main browser is IE 7, backed up by Opera.

[alpha]

FireFox need time to think. If FF can't manage to show IDN's unicode on the URL bar, FF will die.

IDN IS NOW MAINSTREAM!

agreed.

I've changed my avatar out of respect. :)

[Rubber Duck]

agreed.

I've changed my avatar out of respect. :)

IE 7 takes a bit of getting used to but it is a seriously bit of kit, although there are still a few bugs to snag. It does, however, attempt to address both the IDN and phishing issues at a much more fundamental level than FF.

I cannot remember clearly but I am pretty sure I was asked whether or not I wanted phishing filters when it was installed. If this is the case then it clearly show that M$ is taking these issues seriously. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the emphasis for Japan and China is a bit different than for the Standard Version.

[Olney]

You guys keep talking about dot coms but you have to also realize
dot jps & dot cns show up as unicode in all browsers.
Firefox shows coms, nets, cc, & tvs as punycode but jp is always unicode.
Natives might not even notice initially if they keep seeing IDN.jp

This isn't an opinion or anything, & I'm not sure why jps & cns always stay as unicode.

[Rubber Duck]

You guys keep talking about dot coms but you have to also realize
dot jps & dot cns show up as unicode in all browsers.
Firefox shows coms, nets, cc, & tvs as punycode but jp is always unicode.
Natives might not even notice initially if they keep seeing IDN.jp

This isn't an opinion or anything, & I'm not sure why jps & cns always stay as unicode.

Makes sense to me, but no I didn't realise the problem only related to Dot Com and Dot Net.

[Drewbert]

Well, an international company won't use idn as it's corporate URL.

Who cares? Most people aren't going to be going for the "corporate URL", they'll be heading for the "sales" or "information" url for the product they're interested in.

And that will certainly be in their native script in most cases.


Not wobbling, you have to put yourself in the shoes of these international companies.

They are going to want a single identity - one color, one name, one culture, one URL that the whole world can access.



Say what?

International companies are going to want to push one culture on all their customers worldwide?

So McDonalds likes to force Jewish people to eat non-kosher meat?

I think you've lost the plot!

Then, they will get the warning sign the Mozilla guy said.

But i won't be worried, it will be in the small minority, like Arabic or Chinese tourists or students in Australia.

You think there's more Chinese tourists and students in Australia then residents?

Have you ever BEEN to Australia?

Melbourne is the 3rd largest Greek city in the world!

You think it's all white crocodile hunters and pop singers?

[yanni]

Melbourne is the 3rd largest Greek city in the world!

..and only ten of them speak English...They need their idns :D

[touchring]

You think there's more Chinese tourists and students in Australia then residents?

Have you ever BEEN to Australia?

Melbourne is the 3rd largest Greek city in the world!

You think it's all white crocodile hunters and pop singers?


Yes, i've been to Australia. No, i did not see any crocodile hunters.

[alpha]

......So McDonalds likes to force Jewish people to eat non-kosher meat?..

haha. you're on a roll tonight..

[alpha]

...I cannot remember clearly but I am pretty sure I was asked whether or not I wanted phishing filters when it was installed. If this is the case then it clearly show that M$ is taking these issues seriously. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the emphasis for Japan and China is a bit different than for the Standard Version.

I've eventually gotten round to installing ie7 rc1.

yes it did prompt for anti-phishing.

[rhys]

Whoever can PM the most lucid description of the problem or issue we are discussing here. I'll pass it up the line to the guys at Phishing Filter (who just told me on the phone that they don't flag IDNs because they are IDNs) and to the guys at IE (who probably built this yellow flag and default punycode resolution protocol). Include an email where they can reach you if necessary. I don't want the feedback coming from me. Thanks.

[burnsinternet]

The main thing that bothers me is that they are bashing Beta 3... and no one seems to be buying their arguments anyway. Let them sit in the dark!

[OldIDNer]

FF is no longer installed on my machine. My main browser is IE 7, backed up by Opera.


RD, how does Opera handle IDN? Does it show the Punycode or Unicode or require setting to show Unicode?



Ok, just downloaded it and it resolves IDN in Unicode straight off.

Nice browser.

[mulligan]

Opera out of the box (As it were):

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3703/arabichu7.jpg

..

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/1847/jpjt4.jpg

..



This is without preconfiguring anything.

[mulligan]

Also converts puny code to unicode, without asking..

[OldIDNer]

yeah, I got it running

pretty cool

[bwhhisc]

Namedrive needs to get some headers with a variety of international faces.
Maybe we can assist them with a short list. Interesting photos might help visitors stick around
at least for a few extra seconds, maybe long enought to find something of interest and click.

[Rubber Duck]

RD, how does Opera handle IDN? Does it show the Punycode or Unicode or require setting to show Unicode?



Ok, just downloaded it and it resolves IDN in Unicode straight off.

Nice browser.

I mainly use it for resetting Nameservers at Domainsite.com which even RC1 has problem with or for logging into two accounts on the same website.

[rhys]

The good news is that it is now confirmed from the IE7 team that as long as native users have installed the proper script in their browser- IDNs in that language will show up as Unicode with no yellow bar or suspicious warning - such warning applies only to scripts that are not installed. That means that for Japanese OS users Japanese script will be a default script and there should be no manual interaction necessary by the user with IE7 to see unicode in the URL bar.

I think this defuses the big issue that started this thread in most cases.

[Rubber Duck]

Yes, can we have no more ill informed nonsense from the Hacking for Christ lunatic?

[gammascalper]

That is great news rhys!

[Neptune]

thanks for the info rhys, this is very nice to hear.