Giant
7th December 2006, 08:36 AM
Rewards for providing infos for Chinese language
Recently, one member disputed my statements that 劵 is a Traditional Chinese and that many Chinese use 滑雪 and 滑冰 indiscriminately, and attacked me that I was running my own show for Chinese language when I offered explanations for questions about Chinese characters, words, or language. I think I must remind some members here that offering advice or help in any subject to our fellow users is an act of honor and should be encouraged. Since the birth of this site last year, many members have done a good job in helping each other to understand IDN names in different languages.
I can't understand why anybody would think that providing info to help others is showing off one's talents and therefore should be subjected to verbal attacks. I knew our members are from many different cultures, but I didn't expect to see one with such kind of mentality. I have used internet to get help and to give advices for 20 years, and I will continue to do so and be happy to defend our wonderful tradition.
To encourage the generosity of providing helps in Chinese language, I sincerely pledge to reward good infos with a domain name worths $100 to $1,000. I don't have a lot of cash, but I have quite a lot of value domains :-). Infos have to be backed by proof or make-sense interpretation. Infos can be written in Chinese or English. I will decide which info is good and useful.
To demonstrate what I mean "good infos", let me try how I will explain "劵 is a Traditional Chinese":
1. Base on the stats from different research institutes, Understanding 3,000 Chinese characters will enable you to read, write and speak 99% of everyday Chinese, but you need 15,000 characters to read and understand Chinese old texts written in the last 3,000 years. If you wonder how many characters altogether have been used in the last 3,000 years, the figure is larger than 100K.
An average mainland high school graduate knows less than 6,000 characters.
From these figures 3k, 6k, 15k, 100k, we can say:
An average Chinese cannot read and understand Chinese Old Texts without consulting some LARGE dictionaries.
2. Some pupular dictionaries in China collect very small amount of characters.
-《工农兵字典》: Pupular in 1970s. Total characters: 7,000
-《古今汉语字典》: Published in 1992. Total characters: 9,200
-《简明汉语字典》: Published in 1981. Total characters: 13,000
To conclude a character is not Chinese simply because you can't find it in the dictionary is not a good method that you should adopt.
Here's a good example: "Chinese Kungfu" or "中国功夫" (meaning "Chinese Martial Art")
"功夫" means "martial art" and is well known all over the world, but you can't find such interpretation in most Chinese dictionaries. Is it fair to say "功夫" when meaning Martial Art is not a Chinese? Of course NOT.
"功夫" is an informal term for Martial Art, its formal term is "武术".
Most dictionaries only list "功夫" as "Time or effort dedicated in a task or project", but that's completely different thing.
3. Chinese character is called "Open Set" of characters.
- Arabic numbers created from 10 digits 0, 1, 2, 3...9 are called "Close Set" of numbers, because you can't create more numbers outside the one trillion ones that already been known.
- "Open Set" means Chinese characters can be created any time by anybody. Dictionaries are added new characters every year. Can you deny a character being Chinese character simply because it has not been added to dictionaries (but is being used)? Of course NOT.
*** A character is called a Chinese character if it's created according to character rules (造字法) and has been used in any time in our history.
Example: A person invented a smart knife, and he even created a new character to name it. Let say he combined 矢 and 刀 to make a new term --> [矢刀] and he decided to pronounce it [dao] (same as 刀). Let's look at 2 scenarios:
a. The knife proved to be very useful, and became very popular. People used the word [矢刀] everyday. And after a few years, [矢刀] was added to the dictionary. In this case, we definitely would call [矢刀] a Chinese character because it's recorded in the dictionary.
b. The knife was only popular for a year. [矢刀] did not make it to the dictionary but was recorded in some books and documents. After a few years, [矢刀] disappeared from people's memory. In this case, [矢刀] can still be called a Chinese character because it was created complying with character rules and was used in a certain time.
4. Variants.
I guess some people would ask this question: Why would the Chinese need 100k characters while 3,000 is already enough to handle 99% of everyday readings, writings and conversations? Correct, we don't need that many characters, most of the 100k characters are just Variants of certain current characters, and different Variant is "current" in different period of time.
Example: 証券, 證券, 证券 all mean Stocks.
When 証 was being used, 證 was considered its Variant. When the Nationalist government adopted 證券 as a formal term, 証 was considered a Variant. When PRC started Simplified Chinese, 證 and 証 were 证's Variants. You can't find 证 in Taiwanese dictionaries, and you can't find 證 or 証 in China's common dictionaries either (except some special purpose dictionaries).
劵 (not 券) is pronounced [juan], and is used by many Chinese to mean 券 [quan]. 劵 is actually a typo of 券 in such use, but a very popular typo (Google for 劵: 5,700,000). As I said in a thread, you can find at least 20% of Singaporean Chinese pronounce "Stocks" as [zheng juan] instead of [zheng quan]. If [zheng juan] is pronounced, the written words (typos) you would get are 证劵 (Google: 97,000) and 证卷 (Google: 199,000).
The typos 证劵 and 证卷 are so popular even the court would accept them to mean "Stocks".
So, 劵 is complied with character rules (造字法) and has been recorded in books in various periods of time in history, I don't see how anyone can possibly deny it's a Chinese character.
5. The Japanese use 劵 or not would not make 劵 less Chinese or more.
To disprove my statement "劵 is a Chinese character", you can't just point out that the Japanese also use this character. Whether the Japanese use this character or not is irrelevent to my statement.
Again, let's use the same example: 証券, 證券, 证券 all mean Stocks
The Japanese use 証券, but it cannot change the fact that 証 is actually a Chinese character. Although 証券 is not the current form in Chinese writings, Variants are still considered having same force as the current form.
5. Variants are not obsolete.
Variants should not be considered obsolete even they are not listed in the current dictionaries.
Example: 堃 is a Variant of 坤 and was rarely used for some time. But when the Taiwanese politician named 游錫堃 became popular, 堃 became a popular character again.
To be continue...
Recently, one member disputed my statements that 劵 is a Traditional Chinese and that many Chinese use 滑雪 and 滑冰 indiscriminately, and attacked me that I was running my own show for Chinese language when I offered explanations for questions about Chinese characters, words, or language. I think I must remind some members here that offering advice or help in any subject to our fellow users is an act of honor and should be encouraged. Since the birth of this site last year, many members have done a good job in helping each other to understand IDN names in different languages.
I can't understand why anybody would think that providing info to help others is showing off one's talents and therefore should be subjected to verbal attacks. I knew our members are from many different cultures, but I didn't expect to see one with such kind of mentality. I have used internet to get help and to give advices for 20 years, and I will continue to do so and be happy to defend our wonderful tradition.
To encourage the generosity of providing helps in Chinese language, I sincerely pledge to reward good infos with a domain name worths $100 to $1,000. I don't have a lot of cash, but I have quite a lot of value domains :-). Infos have to be backed by proof or make-sense interpretation. Infos can be written in Chinese or English. I will decide which info is good and useful.
To demonstrate what I mean "good infos", let me try how I will explain "劵 is a Traditional Chinese":
1. Base on the stats from different research institutes, Understanding 3,000 Chinese characters will enable you to read, write and speak 99% of everyday Chinese, but you need 15,000 characters to read and understand Chinese old texts written in the last 3,000 years. If you wonder how many characters altogether have been used in the last 3,000 years, the figure is larger than 100K.
An average mainland high school graduate knows less than 6,000 characters.
From these figures 3k, 6k, 15k, 100k, we can say:
An average Chinese cannot read and understand Chinese Old Texts without consulting some LARGE dictionaries.
2. Some pupular dictionaries in China collect very small amount of characters.
-《工农兵字典》: Pupular in 1970s. Total characters: 7,000
-《古今汉语字典》: Published in 1992. Total characters: 9,200
-《简明汉语字典》: Published in 1981. Total characters: 13,000
To conclude a character is not Chinese simply because you can't find it in the dictionary is not a good method that you should adopt.
Here's a good example: "Chinese Kungfu" or "中国功夫" (meaning "Chinese Martial Art")
"功夫" means "martial art" and is well known all over the world, but you can't find such interpretation in most Chinese dictionaries. Is it fair to say "功夫" when meaning Martial Art is not a Chinese? Of course NOT.
"功夫" is an informal term for Martial Art, its formal term is "武术".
Most dictionaries only list "功夫" as "Time or effort dedicated in a task or project", but that's completely different thing.
3. Chinese character is called "Open Set" of characters.
- Arabic numbers created from 10 digits 0, 1, 2, 3...9 are called "Close Set" of numbers, because you can't create more numbers outside the one trillion ones that already been known.
- "Open Set" means Chinese characters can be created any time by anybody. Dictionaries are added new characters every year. Can you deny a character being Chinese character simply because it has not been added to dictionaries (but is being used)? Of course NOT.
*** A character is called a Chinese character if it's created according to character rules (造字法) and has been used in any time in our history.
Example: A person invented a smart knife, and he even created a new character to name it. Let say he combined 矢 and 刀 to make a new term --> [矢刀] and he decided to pronounce it [dao] (same as 刀). Let's look at 2 scenarios:
a. The knife proved to be very useful, and became very popular. People used the word [矢刀] everyday. And after a few years, [矢刀] was added to the dictionary. In this case, we definitely would call [矢刀] a Chinese character because it's recorded in the dictionary.
b. The knife was only popular for a year. [矢刀] did not make it to the dictionary but was recorded in some books and documents. After a few years, [矢刀] disappeared from people's memory. In this case, [矢刀] can still be called a Chinese character because it was created complying with character rules and was used in a certain time.
4. Variants.
I guess some people would ask this question: Why would the Chinese need 100k characters while 3,000 is already enough to handle 99% of everyday readings, writings and conversations? Correct, we don't need that many characters, most of the 100k characters are just Variants of certain current characters, and different Variant is "current" in different period of time.
Example: 証券, 證券, 证券 all mean Stocks.
When 証 was being used, 證 was considered its Variant. When the Nationalist government adopted 證券 as a formal term, 証 was considered a Variant. When PRC started Simplified Chinese, 證 and 証 were 证's Variants. You can't find 证 in Taiwanese dictionaries, and you can't find 證 or 証 in China's common dictionaries either (except some special purpose dictionaries).
劵 (not 券) is pronounced [juan], and is used by many Chinese to mean 券 [quan]. 劵 is actually a typo of 券 in such use, but a very popular typo (Google for 劵: 5,700,000). As I said in a thread, you can find at least 20% of Singaporean Chinese pronounce "Stocks" as [zheng juan] instead of [zheng quan]. If [zheng juan] is pronounced, the written words (typos) you would get are 证劵 (Google: 97,000) and 证卷 (Google: 199,000).
The typos 证劵 and 证卷 are so popular even the court would accept them to mean "Stocks".
So, 劵 is complied with character rules (造字法) and has been recorded in books in various periods of time in history, I don't see how anyone can possibly deny it's a Chinese character.
5. The Japanese use 劵 or not would not make 劵 less Chinese or more.
To disprove my statement "劵 is a Chinese character", you can't just point out that the Japanese also use this character. Whether the Japanese use this character or not is irrelevent to my statement.
Again, let's use the same example: 証券, 證券, 证券 all mean Stocks
The Japanese use 証券, but it cannot change the fact that 証 is actually a Chinese character. Although 証券 is not the current form in Chinese writings, Variants are still considered having same force as the current form.
5. Variants are not obsolete.
Variants should not be considered obsolete even they are not listed in the current dictionaries.
Example: 堃 is a Variant of 坤 and was rarely used for some time. But when the Taiwanese politician named 游錫堃 became popular, 堃 became a popular character again.
To be continue...