'India most important online market, not China'

[drbiohealth]

Interesting read:

http://us.rediff.com/money/2006/feb/15binter.htm?q=tp&file=.htm

[OldIDNer]

I think India is gonna be huge too (but I would never count China out as top economy in the future). I'm seeing small amounts of type-ins on some english .in and .co.in names that I have. And the clicks pay ok too. I'm always surprised when I read about India and look at the many websites based there about how much of an english speaking country they are. It seems many do speak english and their english is often pretty good, I guess they have a good education ethic. Of course, history explains why English is so infused but I look at maps there and everything, streets and stores - many have english names. I think I recently read somewhere that there are more english speakers (people capable of English) in India than in the USA and UK combined.

[kenne]

I agree, india is going to be big. Though the guy just mentions it without backing up.

I was told that people from different area would rather talk english than hindi in communicating with each other. Probably more so in the educated class.

Any one from India can tell us:
1. How big a population speak Hindi native?
Hindi: 180M-500 million ; Tamil:74 million

More than 180 million people in India regard Standard Hindi as their mother tongue, making it the fourth-most spoken language in the world. Another 300 million use it as second language. In the same wiki page, there are also data of 500M native, 800M uses (some variants of) hindi.

Wiki Source as hunted down by OldIDNer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_languages_by_total_speakers


2. How many years of Hindi lessons nonHindi speakers get as opposed to english?

3. Is english one of their official language? how prominent is it as opposed to Hindi?
English is the associate-official language.

4. How easy is it to type Hindi from keyboard?
Should be pretty easy.

5. drbiohealth cites the news of the first search engine devoted to hindi, multilingual maps and mobile games.
All happening in the last few months. This is going to be interesting :) But I think Indian action will happen
a bit later than the Chinese action (maybe 1 year delay)

6. What is the biggest online Indian news site in Hindi vs english? I'd like to look at its alexa traffic, though alexa
traffic is admittedly unreliable. Chinese internet companies take alexa seriously, too seriously, so that could easily
distort the data.

[OldIDNer]

here is a link regarding languages spoken in India:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_languages_of_India

[Rubber Duck]

I think I recently read somewhere that there are more english speakers (people capable of English) in India than in the USA and UK combined.

This may be true, but it is unlikely to be very relevant. The big question is:

How many people will access the internet in English by choice?

My research suggests that is less than 3%, which may not be a sufficient number to generate signficant web content, so the real answer maybe virtually none.

However, I should point out that I have never been been to India, as I doubt has the person who compiled the CIA statistics, which seem to suggest that it is just the 53rd State. My advice would be to sound opinions of those on this Forum that are actually conversant in at least some of the Indian Languages.

[drbiohealth]

This should help a bit.

http://www.bhashaindia.com/patrons/news/indicnews/IndicMobileGames.aspx
http://www.bhashaindia.com/patrons/news/indicnews/Lionbridge.aspx
http://www.bhashaindia.com/patrons/news/indicnews/HindiMobileGames.aspx (reliance is the biggest private telecom operator)
http://www.bhashaindia.com/patrons/news/indicnews/Indicus.aspx


Any one from India can tell us:
1. How big a population speak Hindi native?
2. How many years of Hindi lessons nonHindi speakers get as opposed to english?
3. Is english one of their official language? how prominent is it as opposed to Hindi?
4. How easy is it to type Hindi from keyboard?

Same for tamil urdu and others... Though they are more regional.

[Rubber Duck]

here is a link regarding languages spoken in India:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_languages_of_India

Well that article seem to start off with a misconception that English is an Official Language. It may be in effect but for political reasons would never be called one as such. It has Associate Status, whatever that means.

[OldIDNer]

here is a breakdown of the languages, from the same wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_languages_by_total_speakers

This suggests that the number of english speakers maybe lower than some claim.

[Rubber Duck]

here is a breakdown of the languages, from the same wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_languages_by_total_speakers

This suggests that the number of english speakers is lower than some claim.

Well we can only assume that remaining 250M only speak English then, which is probably how the CIA derived their figures.

[OldIDNer]

Well that article seem to start off with a misconception that English is an Official Language. It may be in effect but for political reasons would never be called one as such. It has Associate Status, whatever that means.

From that page:


As drafted, English ceased to exist as an official language (on par with Hindi) in 1965, after which it was intended to continue as an "associate additional official language" until such time that a duly appointed committee can decide on a full-scale transition to Hindi, based on a periodic review. However, due to protests from some states like Tamil Nadu where there is low Hindi penetration, the "twin language" system is still in vogue. Due to rapid industrialization, and a bustling multinational influence in the economy, English continues to be a popular and influential means of communication in the government and day-to-day business, and moves to replace it have effectively been shelved.

[drbiohealth]

Indicus launches Hindi search engine

The search for regional languages on the Net has just got more competitive with the Republic Day launch of Raftaar.com, the first dedicated Hindi search-engine on the lines of Google.

Though touted as a nationalistic endeavour, the search site - developed by Delhi-based research firm Indicus Analytics - is backed by data that points to the growing number of online users that want to find Hindi content on the Net.

"The idea germinated after Juxt Consult (a sister concern of Indicus) conducted a random sample study in 2005. Of 31,382 Internet users in the study, 44 per cent wanted to see Hindi content," says Laveesh Bhandari, Head, Indicus Analytics, and promoter of Raftaar.com.
Source:Indian Express, India
Posted on: 03/2/2006 3:12:15 PM

[OldIDNer]

Be interesting to know the breakdown of what the other 56% wanted to see.
Seems hindi is the language to go for, and maybe top english keywords, in terms of speculation.

Wot, a well known domainer, has made a small fortune selling english .co.in names. At least that is what I have read/heard.

[IDNCowboy]

hold on to your english .in .co.in names

do your math as soon as the indian internet population grows by alot in a decade(there are 1 billion ppl there) then even 3% speaking english is HUGE.

[Rubber Duck]

From that page:


As drafted, English ceased to exist as an official language (on par with Hindi) in 1965, after which it was intended to continue as an "associate additional official language" until such time that a duly appointed committee can decide on a full-scale transition to Hindi, based on a periodic review. However, due to protests from some states like Tamil Nadu where there is low Hindi penetration, the "twin language" system is still in vogue. Due to rapid industrialization, and a bustling multinational influence in the economy, English continues to be a popular and influential means of communication in the government and day-to-day business, and moves to replace it have effectively been shelved.

I have been through these arguments many times. English is undoubtedly widely spoken, but it the language in which the Indian Worker addresses him family when he gets home that is the key issue here. If that is English, then online future in India is undoubtedly English and my IDN portfolio in Indic scripts is worthless.

[touchring]

India needs English to be united as a single country.... Of cos, English is only a business/government language, Tamil people still speak Tamil with friends and at home. Local newspapers are also in local languages. This is what i observed of my Indian friends and business associates.

[drbiohealth]

Star TV (of Murdoch) started their operation in India in 1991 initially in english for a few years. They went almost went bankcrupt. Later, they realized their error...soon changed their content to hindi and now they are one of the most watched channels. Almost all big channels have gone hindi like, CNBC, discovery, national geography, infact all major ones...in print media....india's leading publishing house India today started their publising in english....later they turned to hindi and printed the same mag in hindi...there are just numerous examples like these....things seem to be changing.....the only drawback in india as of now is broadband penetration which ofcourse is just a matter of time....

Actually, the biggest (in literal sense) backer of local languages in India is big billy (Microsoft). I can say only one thing about them looking at their action....."they are bloody smart guys"..... no questions

[Rubber Duck]

India needs English to be united as a single country.... Of cos, English is only a business/government language, Tamil people still speak Tamil with friends and at home. Local newspapers are also in local languages.

Yes, but the key question is, what languages are they going to browse the net and go shopping online in?

[OldIDNer]

I think that a few langauges may have worth, as opposed to an either or situation. Seems hindi names may do very well.

[IDNCowboy]

I think that a few langauges may have worth, as opposed to an either or situation. Seems hindi names may do very well.
What about the Tamil ppl?

Seems like english won't be the key then but probably a mix of tamil/hindi

[drbiohealth]

There were times when the west used to view india as "the land of snake charmers". Which goes to say how little they know about India... ;)

[touchring]

Chennai is boom town.

[Rubber Duck]

What about the Tamil ppl?

Seems like english won't be the key then but probably a mix of tamil/hindi

Tamil is not actually one of the larger language groups but provides a focus for opposition to Hindi dominance.

I believe there are a least 10 local languages that will have considerable online content.

Not sure whether in areas that matter, there will be sufficient interest to sustain online content in English.

Frankly, I don't really care what they use. When you have a good selection of the ULTIMATE Generics, we are talking Moody Triple AAA here and then some, it doesn't really matter too much. There is next to no traffic in the scripts to date, but we are already getting most of it.

[drbiohealth]

OK, lets see this. I have stayed in the US, the UK and am Indian by origin. I am pretty comfortable with English. However, what is natural of me is "Hindi". If given a "choice" I would personally relish hindi more compared to english. Like for example, sitting in singapore I make sure I make myself updated on hindi news daily without fail every morning though there are thousands of english indian news sites online.

The point to note is, hindi never got a chance to come out of its shell. Most important reasons, as you have highlighted elsewhere, include non-portability of fonts, non-standard keyboards and computer/internet price. And all these three are being taken care of. As I see, internet will become a blooming ground for hindi.

IMHO, within say three years hindi will have a significant presence on internet. Let's see .. :)




How many people will access the internet in English by choice?

[IDNCowboy]

The problem with americans is that they think everyone in India speaks english (or should adapt to the language).. (or at least on these forums )
I believe to target the indian market we need hindi domains

[drbiohealth]

http://finance.yahoo.com/columnist/article/economist/2074

[Rubber Duck]

OK, lets see this. I have stayed in the US, the UK and am Indian by origin. I am pretty comfortable with English. However, what is natural of me is "Hindi". If given a "choice" I would personally relish hindi more compared to english. Like for example, sitting in singapore I make sure I make myself updated on hindi news daily without fail every morning though there are thousands of english indian news sites online.

The point to note is, hindi never got a chance to come out of its shell. Most important reasons, as you have highlighted elsewhere, include non-portability of fonts, non-standard keyboards and computer/internet price. And all these three are being taken care of. As I see, internet will become a blooming ground for hindi.

IMHO, within say three years hindi will have a significant presence on internet. Let's see .. :)

In economic terms Hindi is undoubtedly a sleeping 500Kg Gorilla that is about to arouse and start beating its chest. I am sure in linguistic terms it is one on the richest and most interesting languages on Earth. I sure feel intellectually impoverished not to speak even a few sentences. But who knows, maybe one day I will at least get to pronounce my own domain names.

[OldIDNer]

I agree generally that hindi does appear to be the way to go but top english names will always have value - English is an international language, and in a country like India, with the 2nd largest population of people in the world with significant familiarity with English, I believe English .ins will be used and do well as they already have very early on as indicated by some of the best .in resales and Indian sites branding in English, using .in.

But time will tell, as it always does.

Correction, population wise India is #2 and is expected to overtake China in the future.

[drbiohealth]

Well, I don't know about english.in domains. I have already done away with my 200 .ins . I think they will have a market which will be limited, but they will never reach the dizzy heights of english.coms. The only other thing that can perhaps reach those heights is IDN.IDN in different languages. IMO

[Rubber Duck]

I agree generally that hindi does appear to be the way to go but top english names will always have value - English is an international language, and in a country like India, with the largest population of people in the world (I believe - them and China are close) with significant familiarity with English, I believe English .ins will be used and do well as they already have very early on as indicated by some of the best .in resales and Indian sites branding in English, using .in.

But time will tell, as it always does.

I hope I am not being understood here. I don't really have a problem with English Keywords in dot in or their owners feeling optimistic about them. What I primarily object to is speculators hyping them on other forums as a key to the access of a Market of 1.1 Billion English speakers. This kind of hype is clearly aimed at exploiting the gullible, which I find offensive.

If they prove to be correct then all power to them, but in many cases I see it as offloading worthless junk. OK, it more than probable that some very generic English Keywords will provide access to some very successful sites, particulary where addressing an English Audience make sense. However, I have seen long lists of almost random dictionary terms being hyped, which I find insulting to my intelligence, but potentially financially damaging to the less well endowed.

[OldIDNer]

I agree with both of you.

[drbiohealth]

Dave,

I just realised that all the Indian states are virtually divided between two of us .. ;)

[OldIDNer]

Well, I don't know about english.in domains. I have already done away with my 200 .ins . I think they will have a market which will be limited, but they will never reach the dizzy heights of english.coms. The only other thing that can perhaps reach those heights is IDN.IDN in different languages. IMO

I largely agree.

I'm curious, can you offer any examples of .in names that you let/are letting go?

[drbiohealth]

just a sample ... :)

anxiety
strippoker
epoker
sweepstakes
videocamera
webcamera
anxiety
babygifts
bhajan
broadbandphone
careereducation
collegedegrees
collegeloans
contactlense
continuingeducation
creditscores
debtmanagement
debtrelief
debtsolution
dentalplan
equityloan
fantasyfootball
foreclosure
genomics
giftbasket
healthproducts
homeequity
homefinance
hypertension
insurancequote
mattress
migraines
mortgagequote
onlinebingo
onlinecreditcard
onlineloans
onlinetax
overweight
painrelief
personaldebt
personalfinance
pethealth
pokerchips
refinanceloans
remortgage
secondmortgage
settlement
stockquote
stopsmoking
studentcreditcard
termlifeinsurance

[OldIDNer]

I see. Some ok names there. You really went to town! I only have about 15 total.

[a2zofb2b]

Indicus launches Hindi search engine

The search for regional languages on the Net has just got more competitive with the Republic Day launch of Raftaar.com, the first dedicated Hindi search-engine on the lines of Google.

Though touted as a nationalistic endeavour, the search site - developed by Delhi-based research firm Indicus Analytics - is backed by data that points to the growing number of online users that want to find Hindi content on the Net.

"The idea germinated after Juxt Consult (a sister concern of Indicus) conducted a random sample study in 2005. Of 31,382 Internet users in the study, 44 per cent wanted to see Hindi content," says Laveesh Bhandari, Head, Indicus Analytics, and promoter of Raftaar.com.
Source:Indian Express, India
Posted on: 03/2/2006 3:12:15 PM

We have our own Hindi search engine using Google API.
The interface allows both transliteration and hindi tying.
http://www.Hindi.co.in (www.खोज.com)

[drbiohealth]

Now no more .. :).

That's a good effort! Have people started using it. That domain is cute too!

We have our own Hindi search engine using Google API.
The interface allows both transliteration and hindi tying.
http://www.Hindi.co.in (www.खोज.com)

[OldIDNer]

I focused mainly on generic products and technology like mp3players.in/co.in searchengine.co.in, mobilephone.co.in and others.

[Rubber Duck]

I focused mainly on generic products and technology like mp3players.in/co.in searchengine.co.in, mobilephone.co.in and others.

I am sure if they are top generics then they will have value. There will not be enough Hindi terms or gTLDs to satisfy the best terms. Whether or not they will be as valuable as Hindi IDN dot coms is another matter.

[IDNCowboy]

I am sure if they are top generics then they will have value. There will not be enough Hindi terms or gTLDs to satisfy the best terms. Whether or not they will be as valuable as Hindi IDN dot coms is another matter.
look on google news for the past few months

the indian government has been embracing .co.in / .in domains no word on .com

[Rubber Duck]

look on google news for the past few months

the indian government has been embracing .co.in / .in domains no word on .com

Well, that is a no brainer, but just how many will they buy?

[drbiohealth]

The only reason why I did away my .in portfolio was because it sometimes becomes so very difficult to distinguish between .in and .co.in for a particular keyword specially when these are on equal footing. Having two tlds of the same popularity level will become a nightmare for the users to remember them correctly....this will become more pronounced if these two continue to be on equal footing in future as what seems to be. Thus, essentially they will help .com to rise further.

.com had been in use in India for quite sometime now and people are pretty aware of it. Regarding the government, since they cannot support .com, they are supporting .in/co.in. It would have been much more sensible step on the part of the government if they had launched just one tld ie, either .in or co.in . The mess is bound to happen in that tld domain. Cheers!


I am sure if they are top generics then they will have value. There will not be enough Hindi terms or gTLDs to satisfy the best terms. Whether or not they will be as valuable as Hindi IDN dot coms is another matter.

[donwebcorleone]

i wonder if in india happens the same than in the philippines, when i went to manila everyone speaks english, even at school instruction is in english but at home or among close friends everyone uses tagalog. something like poor people tagalog, educated or middle class filipinos english; the websites from the philippines are also divided, business websites offering services, sales, etc in english; local news, blogs, etc in tagalog.

is people doing the websites to offer services, online stores, etc to domestic india in hindi or english? i guess english for now...? i never feel india as an english dominated country, in fact most Ph.D student from India that i know in Tokyo their english is terrible, i dont imagine the english from people who didnt even attend highschool.

[IDNCowboy]

i wonder if in india happens the same than in the philippines, when i went to manila everyone speaks english, even at school instruction is in english but at home or among close friends everyone uses tagalog. something like poor people tagalog, educated or middle class filipinos english; the websites from the philippines are also divided, business websites offering services, sales, etc in english; local news, blogs, etc in tagalog.

is people doing the websites to offer services, online stores, etc to domestic india in hindi or english? i guess english for now...? i never feel india as an english dominated country, in fact most Ph.D student from India that i know in Tokyo their english is terrible, i dont imagine the english from people who didnt even attend highschool.
Phillipines was ruled by the u.s. for a while (not as a state) so english probably became a tradition there.

http://countrystudies.us/philippines/16.htm

[Rubber Duck]

i wonder if in india happens the same than in the philippines, when i went to manila everyone speaks english, even at school instruction is in english but at home or among close friends everyone uses tagalog. something like poor people tagalog, educated or middle class filipinos english; the websites from the philippines are also divided, business websites offering services, sales, etc in english; local news, blogs, etc in tagalog.

is people doing the websites to offer services, online stores, etc to domestic india in hindi or english? i guess english for now...? i never feel india as an english dominated country, in fact most Ph.D student from India that i know in Tokyo their english is terrible, i dont imagine the english from people who didnt even attend highschool.

Comparing India with an island archipeligo doesn't make an awful lot of sense to me. There are over 7,000 separate islands in the Philipines which are largely heavily forested, so it is little wonder that there is huge linguistic diversity. Nevertheless, having worked extensively with filipinos they have a greatly growing sense of their own cultural identity and definitely predominantly speak their own language amongst themselves. The emphasis on English has to a large extent been driven by the economies dependence on expatriate remittances. I think as the their own economy develops, this will become significantly less important.

[touchring]

Phillipines was ruled by the u.s. for a while (not as a state) so english probably became a tradition there.

http://countrystudies.us/philippines/16.htm


Filipinos speak English with a slight "American accent", so their English will be much more comprehensible to Americans. Indians generally speak with an "Indian accent". A lot of American call centers are moving to the Philippines because of this.

[Rubber Duck]

Filipinos speak English with a slight "American accent", so their English will be much more comprehensible to Americans. Indians generally speak with an "Indian accent". A lot of American call centers are moving to the Philippines because of this.

Yes, add to that they have a very friendly helpful disposition and understand the western sense of humour, then the place clearly has a lot going for it. The main thing holding them back has been institutionalised corruption, something else they probably learnt from America.

[donwebcorleone]

Comparing India with an island archipeligo doesn't make an awful lot of sense to me. There are over 7,000 separate islands in the Philipines which are largely heavily forested, so it is little wonder that there is huge linguistic diversity. Nevertheless, having worked extensively with filipinos they have a greatly growing sense of their own cultural identity and definitely predominantly speak their own language amongst themselves. The emphasis on English has to a large extent been driven by the economies dependence on expatriate remittances. I think as the their own economy develops, this will become significantly less important.

dwrixon, i did the comparison based on the fact both countries have been ex-colonies of english speaking countries and they both are using english on business. i was wondering if in India people are choosing english by choice or by force.

but i think there are more languages spoken in India than in the Philippines, tagalog is one but the only major one spoken by the filipinos; in india there are several languages spoken each one by hundreds of millions. anyway i dont know much about India, so i shut up.

[touchring]

dwrixon, i did the comparison based on the fact both countries have been ex-colonies of english speaking countries and they both are using english on business. i was wondering if in India people are choosing english by choice or by force.

but i think there are more languages spoken in India than in the Philippines, tagalog is one but the only major one spoken by the filipinos; in india there are several languages spoken each one by hundreds of millions. anyway i dont know much about India, so i shut up.

Literacy in India averages only about 60% - http://www.mapsofindia.com/census2001/literacyrate.htm. The number of people that can speak a 2nd language will be even lower.

Literacy rate in the Philippines exceeds 92% http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rp.html, even higher than China's 90% literacy rate.

Even in developed countries, less educated (although not iliterate) people are always at the disadvantaged - i believe so for Japan as well, where drivers and cleaners are having a hard time with the high cost of living and can only afford to eat rice rolls for lunch.

As such, one can anticipate poverty gap in India to widen rapidly over the next 10 years as educated and city people become wealthier, while illiterate people continue to be poor, and some even poorer. What will happen then?

Most Westerners will say, India is a democracy, democracy will take care of it. But we all know that democracy is controlled by the rich and educated. What do illiterate villagers know about who to vote? They would vote for a guy that buys them an ice cream.

[Rubber Duck]

dwrixon, i did the comparison based on the fact both countries have been ex-colonies of english speaking countries and they both are using english on business. i was wondering if in India people are choosing english by choice or by force.

but i think there are more languages spoken in India than in the Philippines, tagalog is one but the only major one spoken by the filipinos; in india there are several languages spoken each one by hundreds of millions. anyway i dont know much about India, so i shut up.

Choice or force is not really a meaningful concept. Nearly everyone chooses to learn a language in reality, but the driving forces are largely economic. India was trading extensively with Britain before it was colonised. Many Indians would have been in favour of British Rule because it will have brought prosperity to some. However, British they may have become, underneath there is still a very deep and rich Indian culture that influences much of their decision making. That is not negative observation, but a recognition of ancient culture with merit of its own over and above anything that has been imported from Britain.

Indians still use English extensively and will continue to do so, of course it can be as incomprehensible to Americans, as their corrupted form of English with non-traditional pronounciations can be to other English speakers. That is unlikely to change as Holywood the main engine for promoting American English has little influence in India. The reason that they use English is that is a neutral medium understood by all, but probably not greatly respected by any. Tamils and other groups would prefer to continue to use English in this way rather than adopt Hindi as a single universal language. They are part of Federation. If they are forced to convert to Hindi, they will feel they are being Colonised.

The defacto language of government in India is English, just as in the EU, it was French. That just goes to show how ephemeral these things can be. Virtually nobody outside France speaks much French within the EU, except for Belgium and Luxembourg. Business in the EU has within a few years switched largely from French to English, although this has not been recognised in any formal way, and the Institution itself maintains the pretence that French has an equal standing.

None of this really changes the fact that Indians don't really speak English. If they are in peer groups they speak their native tongue. If they are in mixed business groups they will speak English, but this doesn't mean that they write their diaries in English or will surf the Internet in English if they are give a choice. The point is that to date there has been little choice, there has also been comparatively little use of the internet. The Indian govenment has clearly recognised that local character content and IDN are essential to secure the economic growth that will come from rapid implentation of the Internet. Of course they have expressed their support for dot In. What government would seriously try to detract from its own ccTLD. They are, however, much more interested and commited to the implementation of IDN. Of course they can use their influence over dot IN to ensure IDN implementation at that level.

I am afraid that image of India as a homogenius English speaking country with a population of 1 Billion is only really useful for a handful of get rich quick merchants on DNForum that appear to have scoped the Pool in English dot In Generics. The question has to be asked why this was allowed to happen. I think the real answer is that Indians themselves did not percieve these domains to be of any great value. The question is whether that was because they were naive or simply because they do not recognise the relevance of English Generics on the Indian Internet?

[touchring]

The question is whether that was because they were naive or simply because they do not recognise the relevance of English Generics on the Indian Internet?

I think the problem lies in the Asian perception that the URL is just an address and there's no point spending money on it.

To most Indian small businesses, even the $7 a year fee is expensive, many would use geocities for it's free url.

In China, i've seen 2nd tier dot com companies using variant urls (pinyin typos) since the pinyin is taken. For instance, using pinnyin.com.

Another reason, particularly so for India and China is the practice of not paying for virtual products, e.g. most people would not pay for software or movie - i've seen people who would not even pay $1 for duplicates - the cheapest way is to download.

Of cos, i'm talking about end-user valuation. Should the keyword attract significant type-in and clickthru, it's valuation will be based on price earnings of say 5-10 years, and not how much an Indian business will pay.

[Rubber Duck]

I think the problem lies in the Asian perception that the URL is just an address and there's no point spending money on it.

To most Indian small businesses, even the $7 a year fee is expensive, many would use geocities for it's free url.

In China, i've seen 2nd tier dot com companies using variant urls (pinyin typos) since the pinyin is taken. For instance, using pinnyin.com.

Another reason, particularly so for India and China is the practice of not paying for virtual products, e.g. most people would not pay for software or movie - i've seen people who would not even pay $1 for duplicates - the cheapest way is to download.

Of cos, i'm talking about end-user valuation. Should the keyword attract significant type-in and clickthru, it's valuation will be based on price earnings of say 5-10 years, and not how much an Indian business will pay.

Interesting, I wondered why I kept getting stuff with geocities on it. I just delete it all without opening it.

A few years ago nobody in the States would have given more than reg fee for any domain. Indians will invest heavily in things that they perceive as having value. The value of domain will become all too apparent to them all to quickly, you only have to read articles about cybersquatting on dot CZ to realise how fast the message travels. Underestimate the Indians at your peril, if you do they will be eating your lunch, and they will be perfectly entitled to do so!

[donwebcorleone]

the only thing is that i think internet can reach a higher position in india than in china, because in india at least they are in a better knowledge of english. china internet use grow only as websites in chinese grow. different in india, that they dont need an website in hindi to search the net.

[touchring]

Of cos, perceptions do change - the only issue is when.

I share your belief that good generics, even from less popular languages, are a good investment.

[Rubber Duck]

the only thing is that i think internet can reach a higher position in india than in china, because in india at least they are in a better knowledge of english. china internet use grow only as websites in chinese grow. different in india, that they dont need an website in hindi to search the net.

The number and quality of web content in Chinese is stunning. I think you'll find that it dwarfs Japanese.

The main reason that you cannot search the internet in India, is because most of the Hindi sites are still in non-portable fonts and because there is a dire shortage of Indic Script Keyboards. English will be most signficant in the technology transfer phase, when information is required from America about how to set things up and get the job running. It will not be the primary medium for browsing.

[OldIDNer]

The only reason why I did away my .in portfolio was because it sometimes becomes so very difficult to distinguish between .in and .co.in for a particular keyword specially when these are on equal footing.


Yeah I don't like that much either. And then right now it seems .co.in is the better type-in extension, more used and well known but the thinking is that .in will be the adopted extension in time (in the .in sphere) so its like, which do you develop, do you need both? Thats why I tried with the few names I have to get the .in and .co.in so this way I could have whichever url they typed and could make a site that resolved with either extension form.

I do agree with the idea that there is limited play in the English arena, absolutely (that's really true with all extensions but .com, in a sense). And of course you will always have people registering bad domain names (self included). People do speak of the English/India connection, but this is often done by many who are not even aware of domain names. There is a lot of information on the internet that suggests English is an important language in India, a sort of neutral second language, closely allied with business, govt, and, money. But of course, what most people speak and type when they shop/buy (spend money) is very important. And IDN will make it possible for people to communicate the way they wish.

I do admire India (and China) for opening their namespace up. NIXI/inregistry in particular is a very competent registry imo. I remember when many of the registrars were licking their lips getting ready to auction the names off and nixi came in and shut that down right quick. Their TM sunrise process went relatively smooth too. Contrast that with what happened with .info (I think nixi's backend is handled by afilias) or what is happening with .eu. Of course, .in is a cctld and easier to manage that a more global gtld but I still think they responded very quickly to issues.

Now movie/movies.in is a great English .in domain, imo. They sure love their movies.

[donwebcorleone]

the only thing is that i think internet can reach a higher position in india than in china, because in india at least they are in a better knowledge of english. china internet use grow only as websites in chinese grow. different in india, that they dont need an website in hindi to search the net.

what i mean here is that, IMHO, chinese couldnt reach a high number of internet users because the number of websites in chinese was minimal. what was the greatness of having internet at home if u didnt understand a word of most websites?

now that a lot of content in chinese is being done, even by western companies, the use is skyrocketing. on the other hand, i think people in other countries as India or Latinamerica didnt need their own language websites that much to surf the net; thats why they started to use it a lot english .com ; now things change.

anyway m sure chinese content is now huge, and in the future when at least 50% of the chinese reach to have internet at home to do websites, buy online, create blogs, etc in chinese, they will be able to double or triple the numbers of websites existant in all other languages for sure. thats what unfortunately cant occur with .jp

[touchring]

Yeah I don't like that much either. And then right now it seems .co.in is the better type-in extension, more used and well known but the thinking is that .in will be the adopted extension in time (in the .in sphere) so its like, which do you develop, do you need both? Thats why I tried with the few names I have to get the .in and .co.in so this way I could have whichever url they typed and could make a site that resolved with either extension form.

I do agree with the idea that there is limited play in the English arena, absolutely. And of course you will always have people registering bad domain names (self included of course), they see someone with some names and decide to get in on it and reg names but often most of the valuable space is long gone. People often do speak of the English/India connection, but this is often done by many who are not even aware of domain names. There is a lot of information on the internet that suggests English is an important language in India, a sort of neutral second language, closely allied with business, govt and, money. But of course, what most people speak and type when they shop/buy is very important.

I do admire India (and China) for opening their namespace up. I think NIXI in particular is one of the most competent registries I have even seen. I remember when many of the registrars were licking their lips getting ready to auction the names off and nixi came in and shut that down right quick. That was very cool. Their TM process went relatively smooth too. Contrast that with what happened with .info (I think nixi backend is handled now handled by afilias, ironically) or what is happening with .eu. Of course, .in is a cctld and easier to manage that a more global gtld but I still think they responded very quickly to issues.

Now movie/movies.in would be a great .in domain, English wise, imo. They sure love their movies.

Dave, if the UK nic suddenly announces .uk, will it take off? Say www.bbc.uk.

What do you think?

[drbiohealth]

All said and done, I concur with Dave that this indeed is/was once in a lifetime opportunity.

We are actually seeing the 2nd phase of this whole game, or may be the 2nd phase too will soon pass by.

First phase was in 2000-01. Those people who booked names that time are sitting pretty with real gems. Take for example, I keep stumbling upon this name in the IDN whois scene, "netcorp". I imagine this is the same group which holds a lot of premium english.com. These guys were not fools to shell out reg fee for thousands of names year after year.

My sense is that all guys on this forum will fare well in future as they must have got by now at least a few "too good" domains in their kitty. However, with with time newcomers will face the same tune similar to what happened with english.com. History repeats!!!

[Rubber Duck]

Dave, if the UK nic suddenly announces .uk, will it take off? Say www.bbc.uk.

What do you think?

I don't think they have the rights over it somehow. The only people using .uk at the moment is central government who have such an inflated view of their own importance that they will probably hang onto it. I think there would be opposition to from big business who are already commited heavily to co.uk and dot com. I think really for most it would only create a huge amount of unwelcome work and unnecessary investment. It would have been better if .uk had been launched as an extension right from the start as was the case with .de.

What about the Tamil ppl?

Seems like english won't be the key then but probably a mix of tamil/hindi

Well tamil is unlikely to be the second most important online language as it would have to compete with Bangla, Urdu, Marathi, Telugu and Kannada, but it will be significant nonetheless.

[IDN.TV]

I have some domains in hindi,

But, according to me the main problems are

1. 90% of the people who use computer or internet are very fluent in English (they are also good in their mother tongue), would find it easier to search for english terms (type in english words) than actually take an effort to type-in regional words.

2. The truth is people who can afford to use internet now or mostly who can speak English.

3. There is a lot of westernization in India, where the younger generation are happier to use english than the native languages. They do converse in their mother tongue but they feel happier or sometimes hip to use english.

4." Learn english you will get a good job" is the way things are now in india, with so many call centers, BPOs.Indians do only what thing favor them, In that I mean by learing english they get good jobs, better pays and better life. So, it will tough for the reverse trend to take place.


5. Politics is huge in India, offlate more and more politicians speak in english and are not so fluent in native languages or not so good oratary skills in native languages.

6. ICSE, CBSE and SSC (boards of the state the english ones) have english as the first language in school.

7. And india has many languages, people have to talk to so many people from so many different places in india, so one language that is more common between these people is english.

8. When it comes to hindi, most of the south indians, prefer to speak in their native languages than hindi, and if they ever come accross a north Indian they would speak engilsh than hindi.

9. I did my education is BITS-Pilani, a college in North India, predominantly a hindi speaking place. I am a south Indian from hyderabad. I have seen the two sides of the country and one thing so common is people who can speak in native languages cant write them well, and to use internet you need to write indian languages, You might find it quiet alarming that only 50% of people who can speak can write their native languages.

10. It the past month, I have made a lot of my friends invest in IDN, there was one wo bought 47 .tv japanese prefectures and another who bought a lot of chinese domains. But, when asked about hindi all of them were like, India is happy with english.

P.S. I have invested in Hindi hoping there would be a reverse trend, But frankly I dont so. Unless the Indian goverment uses some major strategy. As long as education is primarly taught in english it is tough.

These facts are through a lot of personal experience and a discussion with my fellow friend INDers.

[touchring]

One question, in Indian high schools and technical schools, do students type in English or in Hindi or in native languages for project reports? Like you say, it's one thing to speak and read and even write, but another thing to actually type on the PC.

[IDN.TV]

I have never seen in my whole life people, typing reports in hindi or any other languages. Its like they just type in english, india is supposed to be a place with a lot of good fundamentals in science, but all this science is taught to them in english. Now, you might say their are some schools which have native languages as primary language, but after the school they try shifting to college with english, even if it doesn't happen, quiet rare, they then learn english in private tutions and then apply for jobs.

I think they only type in native languages for newspapers or some kind of a semi official stuff for subordinate.

Native languages are spoken !!

Native languages are used !!

Hardly 50% who speak can write in native languages !!

But, In my whole life I wouldn't have typed a single telugu or hindi character on a computer, Though I can read and write both these languages.

[idnmaster]

I am from India.....

Rural People in India like to read the newspapers in their own language and aslo some in the cities too.. and you know that nearly 85% of Indian population live in villages....
Now the internet providers in India are fast growing and are even reaching some remote places in india...
The situation in India is that most of the people in India like to speak in their local language and if we take the case of hindi, most of the states in Inida has hindi as their local language and also almost all people can atleast understand hindi....

If we take the english language, almost all offices and government instituations use english for their communication and documentation....and all educated people in India know to speak and write english.....who are major users of internet...
Thats why many foreign countries prefer India for establishing their call centers in India rather than china....
So in my view even the IE7 is released, its impact on online market in india will be slow and I cant say about the future.....


But the uneducated people in rural india, can't use the net and can't type in there languages, if they ever get tp use net they would have known english by then...

I am newbie to this field...... I bought idns of all 47 japanese prfectures .tv in japanese language and I dont have any idns in hindi language.
As I am a newbie, pls dont mind if I say anything wrong...Thank you..

[thefabfive]

Thanks fd99392 and idnmaster. That's very interesting and insightful information.

[yanni]

That's very interesting and insightful information.

Very interesting, the whole thread indeed.

(Psss: I have some nice ascii.in for sale j/k :)

[Giant]

This thread started about 10 weeks ago, we talked a lot about languages used in India, but we haven't said anything whether we agree with Mr. Brody or not. I have the impression that his conclusion was not based on facts. All the facts I have from China and India pointing to a different view -- China will have a larger economy and a more important online market, and China will enjoy more smooth years ahead than India.

[Rubber Duck]

http://us.rediff.com/money/2006/jan/12binter.htm


<<Can the Internet make a real difference without technology in local Indian languages?

No, and that's the biggest hurdle or the area of most opportunity, depending on how you look at it. Again, it is not a niche market in India. That's where a lot of companies and investors trip up.

Twenty-five million people speaking the same language -- and that's a small regional language -- is not a niche. It is a mass market.

The companies don't have to wait for the government to do anything about it, because it won't. That's where small software companies and start-ups can come in and help develop the market.>>

[IDN.TV]

I agree that there is lot of scope for internet usage in India, but through all my experience I think it will be in english.

I have most friends whom I talk to in my regional language, but to type in is different story.

We talk a lot in our language, we read a lot but we don't write or type in our language.

[alpha]

I agree that there is lot of scope for internet usage in India, but through all my experience I think it will be in english.

I have most friends whom I talk to in my regional language, but to type in is different story.

We talk a lot in our language, we read a lot but we don't write or type in our language.

but you use email?

what language do you use, English or native?

[IDN.TV]

I can read and write telugu and hindi well, but have never ever used them in my email or anywhere on a computer( I have had a computer in my house from 1991). The first time I have ever used is to register a few IDNs in hindi,

I have got nothing against my language in a day I talk 80% in my mother tongue.

People type telugu, hindi, tamil etc. and all these languages in english.

[alpha]

So, in summary then...

today Indians do not type in native script.

IDN-ers: if you have or can get AAA+ names (as RD suggests) - then why not.

but as for going after all the generics, it sounds like it is a high risk/long-term strategy.

[mulligan]

I just polled 7 out of my many dozens of Indian friends by phone and not one of them said they write in Hind, Tamil or any of their mother tounges and see no reason to do so and cant imagine it....
They are all college graduates and went to school/college where they were taught their degrees etc in English.
They are all well educated and highly paid in a variety of professions.
Most notably and this may be why, their higher education took place overseas... US/England etc

I will ask them another time for their opinions about surfing in Hindi etc....

[IDN.TV]

Its a high risk game, but If you have names like the ones rubber duck owns its worth keeping them for a long time,

Afterall we are one billion of us, if someone starts telling us use hindi to have a great life, in 10 years down the line, rubber duck might be one very rich person.

[Rubber Duck]

The problem is that Internet and English literate Indian make up a very small minority of the general population, but the over-riding majority of the internet population. Those that speak English tend to mix with other English speakers and are the most able to express their opinion. The challenge would have been to make not only the other 95% or Internet Literate, but you have had to make them English Literate as well. As the need to spread the Internet is going to require a much shorter time frame than it would take to get everyone English Literate, even if that was a political objective, which it is not, it is essential that the general population are able to access the internet in their own language.

The spread of English has been beneficial as it has enabled the World Economy to expand faster than it would have done otherwise. It has, however, come at the cost of decimation of many local cultures. The computer is now at the brink of bringing everyone together, without forcing them to adopt the English Language or American Culture. This will not be lost on Asians who want Western Prosperity, but do not wish to surrender their History, Customs, Languages and Beliefs to achieve it.

[IDN.TV]

Literacy in india is to know and speak in english,

30 years back India had people who were rich but illiterate, who could have afforded computers.

Today all literates can only access computers, and illetrates can't cant access computers, because In India the rich are getting richer, the middle man are learing english, the poor are happy in their native languages without computer and with agriculture.

[Rubber Duck]

Literacy in india is to know and speak in english,

30 years back India had people who were rich but illiterate, who could have afforded computers.

Today all literates can only access computers, and illetrates can't cant access computers, because In India the rich are getting richer, the middle man are learing english, the poor are happy in their native languages without computer and with agriculture.

If this picture was entirely accurate, I don't believe Microsoft would be going to the trouble of translating their interface into Hindi, Bangla, Urdu, Punjabis, Tamil, Telugu, Gujarati, Marathi, Kannada and Mallayam.

[IDN.TV]

I know thats one thing people have pointed out !! But, it is an interest to grab the market. I am not saying that they haven't done enough research. I have a lot of friends working in the microsoft offshore branch in india(hyderabad). I have learnt from them that Microsoft is getting itself ready to capture the market, if it will ever come. But they dont expect to make any major sales.

But, I doubt if it would be used so much . Internet has been there for a while now, some of the greatest programmers and software giants have been from India, but indian languages are one of the least used languages, you need to ask these questions why didn't these people concentrate on there own languages.

One thing is definite you have good site written in hindi and other languages, peole will read it, but then to type in mails and blogs is a totally different story.

[Rubber Duck]

I know thats one thing people have pointed out !! But, it is an interest to grab the market. I am not saying that they haven't done enough research. I have a lot of friends working in the microsoft offshore branch in india(hyderabad). I have learnt from them that Microsoft is getting itself ready to capture the market, if it will ever come. But they dont expect to make any major sales.

But, I doubt if it would be used so much . Internet has been there for a while now, some of the greatest programmers and software giants have been from India, but indian languages are one of the least used languages, you need to ask these questions why didn't these people concentrate on there own languages.

One thing is definite you have good site written in hindi and other languages, peole will read it, but then to type in mails and blogs is a totally different story.


Well, it would certainly have been a challenge to date, as there has been no availability of local language keyboards.

[touchring]

Actually, this issue is quite complex - it can't be explained using mere words - only people that live in Commonwealth states can understand.

India has evolved it's own version of English that is considered native - with it's own accents and slangs. fd99392, pls do the needful. :)

[IDN.TV]

How tough is to make these keyboard,

Telugu has 18 vowels (4 not in use)

and 36 consonants.

these 14 vowels can be linked to the 36 consonants.

Most of the languages have the same number of alphabets.

Chinese and japanese have so many more alphabets.

Does india lack the expertise to prepare these keyboards, No.

But, they know that the market is smaller to cater to.

[Rubber Duck]

How tough is to make these keyboard,

Telugu has 18 vowels (4 not in use)

and 36 consonants.

these 14 vowels can be linked to the 36 consonants.

Most of the languages have the same number of alphabets.

Chinese and japanese have so many more alphabets.

Does india lack the expertise to prepare these keyboards, No.

But, they know that the market is smaller to cater to.

Technical producing a bilingual keyboard is not at all complicated. The challenge is to produce a keyboard that will cope with a dozen different scripts. This project is backed by the Indian Goverment and is well advanced, from what I understand.

Chinese and Japanese already have bilingual lingual keyboards that are widely in use which just goes to show the arguements against producing such keyboards are totally flawed. The cost of producing different keyboards is actually fairly minimal as it is only the software drivers and the markings on the keys that changes. Each key produces a numeric code that has to be made to the Unicode, it is software that does this. Different driver, different keyboard. All you need then is for the user to know which keys to hit and you are in business!

[IDN.TV]

We have english deeply embedded in us.

Offlate some conservative people are putting up hoardings, fearing that our native languages might be lost this the most famous one stuck in most places in india.

" All the telugu people speak in telugu" the irony is this is written in english

Indian cinema is huge, its way bigger than hollywood or any other language. You type in telugu, hindi the first few links will be links to movies.

Movies play a huge role in india, most of the words in movies are used in english,

People who are illiterate and left school in 1st class know thousands of enlgish words.

telvision, cinema, picture, convent , school, phone, love, college, time, tank, hero, heroine, villain and so many other words

[QUOTE=Rubber Duck]Technical producing a bilingual keyboard is not at all complicated. The challenge is to produce a keyboard that will cope with a dozen different scripts. This project is backed by the Indian Goverment and is well advanced, from what I understand.[QUOTE]

I know its not complicated, but why hvn't they been used is the question I meant.

You are right the government fears that the indian languages might die out, that why offlate you see campaigns asking people to use native languages.

[Rubber Duck]

Well, if not confused yourself, you are certainly at the point of causing a lot of confusion.

I think what you are trying to say is that people who speak Telugu, actually type it in a transliterated form using Latin characters. There is a distinction between language and script which a lot of so called experts who should know better confuse. Language is what is spoken, script is how we represent it. Take Japanese and Chinese. Much of these langauges are written identically, but orally they mutually incoherent, because they don't even have the same linguistic origins. The Japanese adopted the Chinese characters but no their language.

Telugu can of course be transliterated into Latin characters, and many languages have permanently undergone this transformation, notably Turkish and Vietnamese. It is possible this could happen to Indian languages as well, but I don't really think that this will be the case. Bloggers definintely use transliterated forms but probably because there has been a lack of means. Without a Telugu keyboard and no portable fonts, you would be struggling to do much else. That doesn't mean that is what they want to do, it is what they have been forced to do because of the technological limitations.



We have english deeply embedded in us.

Offlate some conservative people are putting up hoardings, fearing that our native languages might be lost this the most famous one stuck in most places in india.

" All the telugu people speak in telugu" the irony is this is written in english

Indian cinema is huge, its way bigger than hollywood or any other language. You type in telugu, hindi the first few links will be links to movies.

Movies play a huge role in india, most of the words in movies are used in english,

People who are illiterate and left school in 1st class know thousands of enlgish words.

telvision, cinema, picture, convent , school, phone, love, college, time, tank, hero, heroine, villain and so many other words

[QUOTE=Rubber Duck]Technical producing a bilingual keyboard is not at all complicated. The challenge is to produce a keyboard that will cope with a dozen different scripts. This project is backed by the Indian Goverment and is well advanced, from what I understand.[QUOTE]

I know its not complicated, but why hvn't they been used is the question I meant.

You are right the governmenr fears that the indian laguages might die out, that why offlate you see campaigns asking people to use native languages.

[IDN.TV]

I think it is very tough to explain what the market is like in India in a few words, I can only tell you one thing like you have been in japan, you need to be in india to see it.

I have been calling so many people and asking them, the same question you have asked me. Thy find it very tough to see people using a lot of indian native languages for searching.

But, I just hope your names will do good so will mine, I have a lot of hindi IDNs,

Nobody is forced to use english in india it just comes with the flow, whether you are good it or not

[Rubber Duck]

I think it is very tough to explain what the market is like in India in a few words, I can only tell you one thing like you have been in japan, you need to be in india to see it.

I have been calling so many people and asking them, the same question you have asked me. Thy find it very tough to see people using a lot of indian native languages for searching.

But, I just hope your names will do good so will mine, I have a lot of hindi IDNs,

Nobody is forced to use english in india it just comes with the flow, whether you are good it or not

Yes, people will have difficulty envisaging searching in Hindi. The amount of Hindi web content to date in Unicode is lamentable. Much of the existing Hindi web content does not have the benefit of searchable technology. That is about to change, just as it did in China. Until a few years ago everything in Chinese was either represented as bit maps or typed in Pinyin. If you look today no major sites are presented in this way!

[IDN.TV]

I would like to just add one thing people who can AFFORD to use internet are good in english, and happy to use it, and nobody feels its forced on them.

[Rubber Duck]

I would like to just add one thing people who can AFFORD to use internet are good in english, and happy to use it, and nobody feels its forced on them.

No I am sure that is the case but the Indian Government has clearly stated that wider user of the Internet amongst the general poplulation is essential for economic development to continue at current rates. They have also clearly identified the navigation of the Internet is in English is a serious barrier to the necessary expansion. From what I have seen and researched, this is not just political posturing. I believe that they have it absolutely right and will do much to force its implementation. Even amonst the English.IN crowd reality is setting in and many are dumping for just about reg fee.

[IDN.TV]

Enlgish is not a barrier.

It costs 10 Rs/- (25 cents) for a person to check internet in web cafe for 30 mins. It costs 500 Rs/- ( 12 dolars) per month to have a net connection in your PC. It costs 10000 Rs/- to own a computer. A person can survive with 300 Rs/- per month in a rural town for a month. For him checking internet doesn't make sense. Agricultural income is enough for them to survive.

If they need more money to check internet they need a better job, like a clerk (where he can own 2000-3000 rs/- per month) to get a clerk job, you need 10th grade education and you should be able to read english and write. Now once he crosses the barrier of learning english things are a lot easier for them

I think the order in India

Learn English >> Get a job >> then you can use internet (by then you are happy using english)

(Use internet it doesn't come for free >> so you wont.)

How do you plan to get these people access computers ? when they can't afford. So the goverment has these policies, through which it takes funds from the world banks.

You should understand that india is one of those countries, where the government is the most corrupted, by getting these new policies, they will get funds and they will issue 2 computers for a small village. After a month those computers disappear and are sold and the middle man makes the profit.

[OldIDNer]

Good stuff fd99392. Thanks for the information.

[Rubber Duck]

Enlgish is not a barrier.

No, but whether it will generally get most Indians to the correct URL is much in doubt.

[IDN.TV]

I dont think it will be a problem.


An indian who has never been taught english before can be the fastest learner, they are not smarter , but for them the vowels that we use and the consonants we use in our native languages go hand in hand with english. They need to be taught the 26 alphabtes, and then how they sound, put them together and he will able to read it and write it. Most of the generic words he must have already heard them, so he can corelate them.

This is how our vowels sound, does that ring a bell

a
ā
i
ī
u
ū
e
ai
o
au

[Rubber Duck]

Well, if what you say is true, then the converse must also be the case.

Have any English speakers managed to get to grips with Hindi yet?



I dont think it will be a problem.


An indian who has never been taught english before can be the fastest learner, they are not smarter , but for them the vowels that we use and the consonants we use in our native languages go hand in hand with english. They need to be taught the 26 alphabtes, and then how they sound, put them together and he will able to read it and write it. Most of the generic words he must have already heard them, so he can corelate them.

This is how our vowels sound, does that ring a bell

a
ā
i
ī
u
ū
e
ai
o
au

[IDN.TV]

Nice question ?

Now if an english speakers grows in a country, where every hoarding has hindi written on them, even the smallest product that is sold (from a match box to sugar) has hindi written on them, all the number plates have hindi written on them and use a lot of hindi words in language but not sure how they look. I am sure you can teach them hindi.
)
English script is way easier in comparision to Hindi (its not dat tough)

You use A we use two A's, you use 26 alphabets we use 52.

In India match boxes, car number plates hoardings, everything has english written on them.

[Rubber Duck]

Nice question ?

Now if an english speakers grows in a country, where every hoarding has hindi written on them, even the smallest product that is sold (from a match box to sugar) has hindi written on them, all the number plates have hindi written on them and use a lot of hindi words in language but not sure how they look. I am sure you can teach them hindi.
)
English script is way easier in comparision to Hindi (its not dat tough)

You use A we use two A's, you use 26 alphabets we use 52.

In India match boxes, car number plates hoardings, everything has english written on them.

Yes, of course you are right, but one of the reasons English is so ubiquitous is that computers until recently have not been able to cope with Indic Scripts. It has been much simpler to produce everything in English or often probably more accurately Hindi transliterated into Latin Script. Now that computers are going to cope with all these local scripts as seemlessly as they do English, then what will be used will be that which is most effective as a marketing tool. If that is English, then of course you will be right, within 10 years, over 5,000 years of Indian culture will just have disappeared down the tubes. If you are not then the use of English in the wider community is likely to go into decline.

[IDN.TV]

Language is the last thing people will let go,

Language Hindi will rule

Script English will rule

[IDN.TV]

India had been occupied by so many different people so many different times in history, but its traditions and culture never changed.

But, after the British colonialsim things have change a lot, and with the globalisation factor. In the past 10 years things have changed so much, where everyone is aping the west.

[Rubber Duck]

Language is the last think people will let go,

Language Hindi will rule

Script English will rule

Well there is no such thing as English script, it is Latin which is shared with most European languages.

I totally agree that people will not let their language go unless they are forced to by social or economic pressures. As that is unlikely to happen then the Indic languages will continue to dominate, although obviously English isn't ever going to totally go away.

What we are really arguing about, is whether online people will continue to transliterate Hindi into Latin or whether they will use the Davengari characters with which they have always been familiar but until recently had no realistic way on inputting into their computers.

I am afraid that nothing you have said has done anything to suggest to me that they will not use the Davengari characters given the choice. This has been the pattern everywhere else, and Latin script has also been widely used in Japan and China as well. It has to be said that in both of these areas it is going into serious decline. Arabic too has been transliterated for the computer in the past, but you don't see much of it these days.

India had been occupied by so many different people so many different times in history, but its traditions and culture never changed.

But, after the British colonialsim things have change a lot, and with the globalisation factor. In the past 10 years things have changed so much, where everyone is aping the west.

Yes, it is wholly understandable that people aspire to Western Levels of affluence. That does not mean that they wish to adopt our values or reject their own culture. If there was no realistic choice I am sure money would talk eventually, but the truth is that India's economy can be best served by enabling its own language and culture, not by destroying them.

[IDN.TV]

I think this is the main reason, people who can use net are more comfortable in english.

The uneducated can neither write latin script nor devanagiri, they can just talk in hindi. (these are the poorest people , and microsoft should gift them computers and tutors to teach them)

The educated can use english, and are more comfortable in english and are the only people who have access to computers.


Enlgish is not a barrier.

It costs 10 Rs/- (25 cents) for a person to check internet in web cafe for 30 mins. It costs 500 Rs/- ( 12 dolars) per month to have a net connection in your PC. It costs 10000 Rs/- to own a computer. A person can survive with 300 Rs/- per month in a rural town for a month. For him checking internet doesn't make sense. Agricultural income is enough for them to survive.

If they need more money to check internet they need a better job, like a clerk (where he can own 2000-3000 rs/- per month) to get a clerk job, you need 10th grade education and you should be able to read english and write. Now once he crosses the barrier of learning english things are a lot easier for them

I think the order in India

Learn English >> Get a job >> then you can use internet (by then you are happy using english)

(Use internet it doesn't come for free >> so you wont.)

How do you plan to get these people access computers ? when they can't afford. So the goverment has these policies, through which it takes funds from the world banks.

You should understand that india is one of those countries, where the government is the most corrupted, by getting these new policies, they will get funds and they will issue 2 computers for a small village. After a month those computers disappear and are sold and the middle man makes the profit.

[IDN.TV]

Yes, it is wholly understandable that people aspire to Western Levels of affluence. That does not mean that they wish to adopt our values or reject their own culture. If there was no realistic choice I am sure money would talk eventually, but the truth is that India's economy can be best served by enabling its own language and culture, not by destroying them.

Its true, this is a long standing question. but, nobody has a solution to it, we would like to keep our values and use our language. But, the requirements of the west are so high people and the farther pastuers look greener.

[Rubber Duck]

I think this is the main reason, people who can use net are more comfortable in english.

The uneducated can neither write latin script nor devanagiri, they can just talk in hindi. (these are the poorest people , and microsoft should gift them computers and tutors to teach them)

The educated can use english, and are more comfortable in english and are the only people who have access to computers.

Yes, that is undoubtedly the case. What has been realised, however, is that there are too few of the former and far too many of the latter not only for their own fullfilment, but also for the needs of the Indian nation as a whole. Something has got to give and that which is going to be forced to give, largely through Government initiatives supported by the likes of Microsoft and Intel, is the domination of English on the Internet.

[IDN.TV]

RD I have nothing against the indian governement, but never count on the indian goverment for the investments, we have other long standing problems.

But, I can tell you one thing , You have a great depth of knowledge about a lot of cultures, which will take you a long way.

[Rubber Duck]

RD I have nothing against the indian governement, but never count on the indian goverment for the investments, we have other long standing problems.

But, I can tell you one thing , You have a great depth of knowledge about a lot of cultures, which will take you a long way.

Well the internet is a wonderful thing. I have yet to step foot on Asian Soil.

[drbiohealth]

Vimal, on the face of it your model on India seems logical. The model seems to perfectly fit the data of yesteryears. However, the only flaw in your model is that it does not take into account the current or anticipated future technological trends in India.

It is sensible sometimes to have a holistic view of the situation, else one may miss the forest for the trees. This is because one tends to get biased of the situation just too soon perhaps because of the immediate environment around oneself. Those that you are taking feedback from are those guys whose backgrounds probably are not very much different than yours - this way you are biasing your model. Have you talked to any rural folks (living in semiurban areas) in India about their experience with computer/internet? I am reasonably sure that you have not. Because I know these guys in reality are afraid of using a computer because of English, perhaps because they think that something might go wrong with the computer if they touch it. Local languages will come in handy here to overcome this barrier. Till date "urban" folks in India did not have a choice between hindi/english wrt using computers? It remains to be seen how they will react if they are given a choice of that sort in future - I do not have the answer for it today. I am not sure how you formed an opinion that these guys will "only" use english in future.

My general philosophy: If I am confused, I try to follow/sense the trend that is being followed by big companies because there is less likelihood that all of these companies can go wrong at the same time. Because I realise these companies have 1000s of smarter guys than me who are much better equipped than I am in formulating their company policies. Many of these companies are laying thrust on localisation, may it be intel, microsoft, google, reliance and the list goes on and on. Incidently, this trend tells a totally different story than what you have painted. Have a look here,

<Quote>
If you thought customers in semi-urban and rural markets were using mobile phones only to make calls, think again. If Reliance Communications Ventures Ltd is to be believed, this is a myth, which has been broken.

Much to its surprise, the company realised that a sizeable portion of its customers in the towns and villages of the Bimaru (Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh) states were using cellphones to log on to the Net, stream video clippings and for infotainment.

http://in.rediff.com/money/2006/apr/21spec.htm


"The demand for more localised, regional content is increasing. For operators, the growth is going to come from non-metros. Only 60 million people know English. Hindi is where the eyeballs are," says Raj Singh, director, Activemedia Technology. Note that mobile data growth is coming not just from the metros but from across the spectrum of A, B and C class cities.

http://inhome.rediff.com/money/2006/apr/25bspec.htm


To further exploit the full potential of SMS in a country with 18 officially recognized languages, Nokia launched many handsets at affordable prices that enable SMS in the most spoken language, Hindi.
http://www.imediaconnection.com/content/8954.asp
</Quote>

Regarding jobs in local lingo, my sense is that growth in Indian economy will create jobs for local language speakers (for example call centres catering to local population).

Its no rocket science to sense that an economic revolution is currently undergoing in India, similar to what had happened in Japan between 1960-1980. Take any sector - everything is getting overhauled, infrastructure (road, rail, air), cement, steel, telecom, auto, services, software and others. Analogy, those who stay above water cannot guage the power of the tsunami current underwater. I am sure many secrets will be unraveled wrt india in not so distant future.

Well, I am willing to buy Indian names at reg fee should anyone of you wants to quit hindi IDNs .. :) .

Cheers!

[blastfromthepast]

I don't know what you guys are talking about! Even my Sanskrit IDNs are getting traffic. LOL

The reasons put forth above for a "snobism of locals" regarding their native language also applies to Russia.

About 100 years ago, nobody who was anybody would read newspapers in Russian! The horror! Educated people spoke French. Pétersbourg.com would have been worth millions.

Today, to a lesser extent, sure, people speak English. We see articles by top internet developers, like A. Lebedev who designed Yandex's website, complaining about IDNs... "why would anyone want to have a domain name in Russian" they say.

Back in the early 1990s, the same thing was writted about file names and email... élite computer nerds wrote: "why would anyone want to have filenames in Russian." Why would you want to email in Cyrillic, when you can use Latin? Why bother really with your own language on the net when anyone who uses computers knows Englishi? LOL I've heard it all, and it was all wrong.

The funny thing is, I've also seen arguments made by French domainers saying "the first thing we learn about computers, is that you don't put accents in domain names."

Oyez! You British domainers, do you speak in Law French? Or English?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_French

All of this talk is nonsense. People want to write in their native language.

In fact, in the case of India, I'm sure people will feel proud to write in their scripts, and will seek out to do so, now that the technology is there.

[Giant]

..... People want to write in their native language.

In fact, in the case of India, I'm sure people will feel proud to write in their scripts, and will seek out to do so, now that the technology is there.

I think so.

[yanni]

All of this talk is nonsense. People want to write in their native language.


True. Isn't this the reason we are all here in the first place? Given the choice -and ability- people will choose their own lang.

[IDN.TV]

One more thing you need to take into account, is I have also invested in these names, but I am sure it will take a lot of time and it always be nice to discuss about the things that can go wrong.

The biggest and only problem is how do they check there inernet, they need a computer or need to check it in some kinda net center.

The only thing I want to point out is people who can afford to check internet have already learnt english. The government with the major private sectors has to take a major step. Provided there is less corruption.

Now those that have learnt english.

About english and hindi speaking people it will be interesting to see what they will adopt ? Its not the same, like in other countries where people want to write in there own script. I think for this the indian education system has to change, because all urban school are converting to english as the medium, most of the rural schools are converting to english as medium or already. When I say medium, they are taught everything in english. After 10th grade , Hindi or anyother native language is not taken as a subject and nothing is taught to them in technical schools (unless wish to pursue a career in hindi)

I as all of hope that indians should use their native languages,

But Indian online market might not be as big as china, coz we have so many scripts, and english with it.

India is definetly growing I have been in the stock markets for a while now, and there is no economy that looks as bright as an indian economy.

Now than having counter argument, we as IDNers what can we do to effect this change. Definetly some good sites with content. There are hardly any good sites in hindi, if you start early you never know.

[blastfromthepast]

They way to get content up is to give people the tools to create blogs and message boards in their own language. It takes minimal skill to find translations for "post new message" or ready made translated forum or blog software.

The way to draw traffic to these sites is to own AAA+++ quality domains.

[drbiohealth]

Look Into The Crystal Ball ;)

Local content and local language has been driving the Internet space, especially with the users logging in from smaller cities. “Localisation is the way ahead. We are seeing more and more users coming from non-metros — second-tier and smaller towns. This means that many new users are accessing Internet perhaps from slower connections and are using more basic applications like email, search, chat,’’ says Rediff India vice-president, strategic services, Jasmeet Singh Gandhi.

For global majors like Yahoo, this is one of the ways to structure its future business. Yahoo has started localising its content and mail applications. Says Mr Taraporewalla, “We are one of the partners with Intel to develop localised content features in 16 Indian languages. We are looking at localisation of all our core properties.” This may mean Yahoo is looking at delivering all its popular services from mail, chat, to jobs in local languages.

From localisation to mobile services, Yahoo has tied up with all the mobile operators to deliver messages. In this kind of a growing market, no one is in a position to take things for granted, says Vikram Bharadwaj, CEO, estatsIndia.com. “For the horizontal portals like Rediff or Yahoo, the leadership position requires constant innovation of services and offerings. Localisation could be one of the ways to come up with new killer applications,” he says.

Sify is the first player to offer mail service in local language, says Mr Bharadwaj. “Localisation and vernacularisation is the new business model for all the portals. Besides Sify, both Rediff and Yahoo are heavily into it and in future their substantial revenue will come from the new local services,” he says.

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=122437


I am very surprised to see the number of hindi blogs that have come up in the past few months,
http://www.google.com.sg/search?hl=en&q=%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%89%E0%A4%97&btnG=Search&meta=